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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Going in very soon. Need to build an amp rack of some sort. Subs are already in the truck but the amp powering them is puking a little at higher volumes. The new sub amp should fix the puking problem.
 

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*Disclaimer* This post is not directed negatively at Zac in any way. Many people love JL, that's fine, it's your stereo, I won't tell you something is better, you have to hear it yourself. If you are happy with Pioneer amps and kenwood subs, that's cool, whatever sounds good to you. Just get annoyed with a certain company, so I must vent*Disclaimer*


Ooooh, look at us, we're JL. We make amps that put out their full amount of power anywhere from 1.5ohms to 4 ohms, and from 11V to 14.4 volts. Makes a lot of sense...actually, when you think about it, sure does sound like a marketing gimmick. Why don't we just say "we have tightly regulated amps. At 4 ohms, they are rated at 500 watts. You get absolutely no advantage from dropping the impedance, or increasing the voltage (hence being tightly regulated). Because for the same price as our 500w amp that does 500 watts anywhere from 1.5 ohms to 4 ohms, we can get another amp that does 500watts at 4ohms and 11V, but if you drop the impedance or increase voltage, you'll get upwards of 1000+watts. "

Guess it comes down to how you look at it, if the glass is half full or half empty. Are you getting an advantage of the amp putting out full power at various impedances, or are you getting jipped since you aren't getting an advantage by dropping the impedance.
 

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iasca_s10 said:
*Disclaimer* This post is not directed negatively at Zac in any way. Many people love JL, that's fine, it's your stereo, I won't tell you something is better, you have to hear it yourself. If you are happy with Pioneer amps and kenwood subs, that's cool, whatever sounds good to you. Just get annoyed with a certain company, so I must vent*Disclaimer*


Ooooh, look at us, we're JL. We make amps that put out their full amount of power anywhere from 1.5ohms to 4 ohms, and from 11V to 14.4 volts. Makes a lot of sense...actually, when you think about it, sure does sound like a marketing gimmick. Why don't we just say "we have tightly regulated amps. At 4 ohms, they are rated at 500 watts. You get absolutely no advantage from dropping the impedance, or increasing the voltage (hence being tightly regulated). Because for the same price as our 500w amp that does 500 watts anywhere from 1.5 ohms to 4 ohms, we can get another amp that does 500watts at 4ohms and 11V, but if you drop the impedance or increase voltage, you'll get upwards of 1000+watts. "

Guess it comes down to how you look at it, if the glass is half full or half empty. Are you getting an advantage of the amp putting out full power at various impedances, or are you getting jipped since you aren't getting an advantage by dropping the impedance.
:drinkhaha :bowdown: :thumbup:
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
iasca_s10 said:
*Disclaimer* This post is not directed negatively at Zac in any way. Many people love JL, that's fine, it's your stereo, I won't tell you something is better, you have to hear it yourself. If you are happy with Pioneer amps and kenwood subs, that's cool, whatever sounds good to you. Just get annoyed with a certain company, so I must vent*Disclaimer*


Ooooh, look at us, we're JL. We make amps that put out their full amount of power anywhere from 1.5ohms to 4 ohms, and from 11V to 14.4 volts. Makes a lot of sense...actually, when you think about it, sure does sound like a marketing gimmick. Why don't we just say "we have tightly regulated amps. At 4 ohms, they are rated at 500 watts. You get absolutely no advantage from dropping the impedance, or increasing the voltage (hence being tightly regulated). Because for the same price as our 500w amp that does 500 watts anywhere from 1.5 ohms to 4 ohms, we can get another amp that does 500watts at 4ohms and 11V, but if you drop the impedance or increase voltage, you'll get upwards of 1000+watts. "

Guess it comes down to how you look at it, if the glass is half full or half empty. Are you getting an advantage of the amp putting out full power at various impedances, or are you getting jipped since you aren't getting an advantage by dropping the impedance.
I think it's about time I have to say something about your opinion of JL amps.

You drop the impedence, you increase distortion and with some amps the distortion increases dramatically with lower impedence loads. With lower voltages power output also decreases. Having an amp that puts out the same amount of power over a wider voltage and impedence range is a huge advantage in my opinion.

Gimmick you say, well I say better engineering and design.

Either you want distorted ugly muddy sound or you want audiophile quality sound. I'll take audiophile quality sound over distortion any time and believe me running my subs at 4 ohms and 500 watts with a damping factor greater than 500 I've got extremely tight bass. Not the muddy distorted crapp I hear coming from guys trying to push their amps as hard as they can by lowering the impedence.
 

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Hmmm, where should I start. With your unnecessary, unwarranted, and uneducated comments about my taste in music quality. Or how about how your info is wrong and misrepresented.

We'll start with the fact that running subs at lower distortion is INAUDIBLE to a certain point. And running a decent class D amp at 2ohms isn't going to give you such high distortion that you can hear. Granted, you start mentioning a really high (5%) distortion, yes you can hera it, but a decent class D amp with a distortion rate of 1% isn't going to sound muddy if you know how to properly set your gains. Your hear distortion pouring out of these so called "guys trying to push their amps as hard as they can by lowering the impedance" because they don't know what proper gain structure is. Most the population doesn't realize that dropping the impedance will result in more power, especially since best buy or circuit city is doing their install. They just find a little knob that makes it louder and crank that. I've sat in many many cars that sounded like ass, and with a simple turn of the gain, I hear "wow, that sounds better". I don't rewire their subs so they get 1/4 the power at 8ohms so their distortion is .02 instead of .5. I've never heard anyone diagnose an audioble distortion problem by saying "gee, your impedance is too low".

If you are running the amp at 4ohms, and we take another amp that does the same power at 4ohms, that's fine. Where does lowering the impedance come into play? It doesn't. You want to run your "great engineer and design" amp at 4ohms for maximum sound quality. Why not just get a really good amp that does that same power, but with better quality? JL amp works fine for you, but what about the guy who wants to add subs and still get the same power to each sub? Lower the impedance, get double the power. Oh wait, that's right, you can hear .8% distortion in subs.
Besides, if Audiophile quality is what you are after, why the hell are you using JL?

Now onto your personal attack on my "lack" of taste for quality music. I will guarantee I've heard 100times more "audiophile" like stereos than you have, both home and car. Putting JL speakers in stock locations on a JL amp will not give you audiophile sound. Getting 2 10's to THUMP tightly isn't audiophile sound. That's called accuracy. Audiophiles would be more concerned with how articulate they are...something JL isn't known for. Before you bash me for not knowing good sound and rolling in my overdistorted bass machine, you should learn a little about me. I compete sound quality in IASCA (hence IASCA_s10). Vehicles more "audiophile" like than anything you've heard. I was Arizona champion last season, and was invited to attend the IASCA world finals in charlotte. Money was an issue so I didn't go. I have a slight feeling that I know "audiophile" more than you.
 

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Zac said:


I think it's about time I have to say something about your opinion of JL amps.

You drop the impedence, you increase distortion and with some amps the distortion increases dramatically with lower impedence loads. With lower voltages power output also decreases. Having an amp that puts out the same amount of power over a wider voltage and impedence range is a huge advantage in my opinion.

Gimmick you say, well I say better engineering and design.

Either you want distorted ugly muddy sound or you want audiophile quality sound. I'll take audiophile quality sound over distortion any time and believe me running my subs at 4 ohms and 500 watts with a damping factor greater than 500 I've got extremely tight bass. Not the muddy distorted crapp I hear coming from guys trying to push their amps as hard as they can by lowering the impedence.
so lets review your statement

you drop the impedance and increase distortion with SOME amps. well DUH lower voltage less power output and if you take lets say a crossfire amp which is a cheaper but VERY GOOD amp

the crossfire 1000d its not a super clean amp but its made to do one thing put out power

so it does around 1200-1300 [email protected] 12 volts now increase that up to 14 or 15 your getting MORE POWER

now the amp is only rated at 1000 watts so instead of having that 500 more watts of power you still only have 1000 with JL. The amp is nice dont get me wrong but its just a gimic so you buy their W7 subs.

so lets look at a Brax SPL COMP

the amplifier does 500 watts rms x2 @ .5 ohms yes .5 now with your theory that amp should put out assloads of distortion yet why the hell does it only have .002 THD @ rated output
just weird i tell you weird

JL amps are nice but id take something like Brax, Audison, U-Dimensions, Tube Driver etc theres many NICER amps of much higher audiophile quality sound

To obtain muddy dirty bass youd need jensen or pyramid. The AVERAGE car audio amp will do fine

I know an SQ competitor that uses tiny ass stock rf amps and he wins 1st place all the time ;) and guess what hes running a lower ohm load.

i have a newflash for you there are no amps that have a damping factor of 500 @ sub frequencies if you want high damping factors use them on your mids which moves 1000s of times a second ;) where the control is actually needed

You really should ask your manufacture @ what frequencie does the amp have that damping factor ;) new flash ITS NOT AT SUB FREQUENCIES!!!!!!!! find out for your self

damping factor just like impedance move all around and are depending on the frequency. do you really think your sub only stays @ 4 ohms? btw im running my single sub with around 1300 watts with an amp rated at .005 THD @ 4 ohms one 1 sub but note the damping factor is rated at 2000 yet that is rated at 1KHZ not 65 and below. Do some research before opening your mouth.

also any amp manufacture can make their amp limit what it puts out its nothing special. JL is the first to market it and try to use it as a gimic which it is
yes an amp works harder @ a lower ohm load but if you set your gains properly you shouldnt have any AUDIBLE distortion. The human ear cant hear anything below 1% and most peoples ears arent even trained to hear that %. So hows about this www.mobiledynamics.com GO TO SCHOOL
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
iasca_s10:

There was no personal attack on your taste for quality music and how would you know what I've heard or not heard. I've been playing around with home and car audio for years. I've heard more amps and speaker combinations then I can list. The attack was directed at me, by you, for my choice in amps and I figured it was time for me to defend myself.

Competing in IASCA means squat to me. All it takes is one judge with his personal taste on what he would like to hear and you loose points. I have yet to find 2 people that have the same personal preference for what they want to hear in a sound system. I've been to several IASCA competitions and the cars that had more points didn't sound all that great to me yet the judges liked them.

Loudsystem: Right from the JL website

Rated Power: 500 W RMS @ 1.5 ohm-4 ohm (11V-14.5V)
THD at Rated Power: <0.05% @ 4 ohm
S/N Ratio*: >95dB below rated power
Frequency Response: 5 Hz-500 Hz (+0, -1dB)
Damping Factor: >500 @ 4 ohm/50 Hz
Input Range: switchable from 200mV-2V RMS to 800mV-8V RMS
Dimensions: 13.4"L x 9.25"W x 2.36"H

You're not telling me anything new. My home theater system kicks my car audio system's ass.

What it comes down to is that JL has amps that will put out the same power over a wide range of voltage and impedences. You don't have to worry about hooking up a 4 ohm speaker and loosing power. Gimmick or not, flexibility may be the best word to use. You guys seem to be upset that you can't get anymore out of the JL's by lowering impedence loads.
 

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Maybe you part of the initial post I made. It wasn't directed at you negatively in any way...just stating my opinion about JL amps, I never said any negative comment about someone who used or purchased them. And FYI, as far as judges opinion, the major discrepencies are in install/creativity/integrity. There's a certain way that music is supposed to sound, judges have listened to that music on reference speakers over and over, and know what the music is supposed to sound like. Audiophile quality sound to me would mean having the music sound as if you were hearing it live, with the detail and dynamics of a concerthall. Sounding great to you may not be that, which is why some of the cars you heard didn't please you. They probably sounded the most accurate though (ie: audiophile). Personal taste plays a VERY small role as far as judging goes. Your personal critiques are another story.

And again, you seem to be missing the point with you last few statements. Like I said in the beginning, is the glass half full, or half empty? Are you getting an advantage by hooking up a 4ohm load and not loosing power, or is it just a tightly regulated amp that doesnt do anymore power at lower impedances? Hell, if that's the case, phoenix gold did that years ago. Their old ZX (not the ti series) were stable down to 1ohm stereo, but didn't put out any more power than at higher impedances. They called it being regulated. JL called it genious engineering.
 

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And since you wanted to pull specs of JL's site, I'll go ahead and use those to my advantage.

THD at Rated Power: <0.05% @ 4 ohm
-Hmmm, the way you made it sound, you wouldn't want to drop the impedance of most because you add distortion. Seems that they don't rate their THD the same from 1.5-4ohms. So with the JL amp, if your subs impedance configuration makes the amp run at a lower load, you are seriously being jipped. Say you have 2 4ohm subs, you have to run it at 2ohms mono. Now you don't get any more power, AND you gain distortion. JL is so smart.

Frequency Response: 5 Hz-500 Hz (+0, -1dB)
-ouch, that hurts. JL's godly engineering team couldn't do any better than 500hz on a class D amp? Hmm, maybe JL should do something that really sets them apart besides regulating their amps. Seems to be your everyday class D amp that's just regulated more than others. Why dont they do something that there's an actual advantage...hmmm, maybe take a look at zapco's class D amp. You can order it to put out full power at 2 or 4 ohms (flexible as you call it), and it plays to 20,000 hz. Now that's some good engineering for you.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Now why the hell would I want my sub amp to produce more than 500Hz anyway. It's a sub amp not a full frequency amp. I don't want any frequencies higher than 500 or more going to my subs in the first place.
 

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It's called overengineering...it's there if you need it. Maybe you don't want frequencies higher than 500 to your subs, but maybe some people do. Or maybe someone wants a lot of power to midbasses without having to use ineffecient class A/B amps.
 

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ok, here i go...i'll have to do something similar to what iasca said in the beginning about his not being a personal threat in any way, shape or form.

personally, i THINK (note i used the word think) that them regulating the amps was a good idea and also a bad idea. it was good in the fact that, it allows you to be a little bit more flexible in sub configurations with these amps.

it was bad in the fact that if you use these amps to compete as i do, you get bumped into a higher power class easier. with an old amp, for example, sa you have an old school Rockford 250a2 (which I originally ran), you are in the 1-150 class...
now say you have a JL Audio 250/1 (which i run now), since it is a mono-block amp, and with the regulations on it, i am automatically boosted to the 151-300 class....a very competitive class along with the 301-600. with my 250/1 i use a 12w3 (for now...until i swap out to my 2 10's), a single 12 isn't that loud, for being in that class. i do a 135-136 dB in my reg. cab truck currently. of course its not BAD for being that, but it could always be better.

but that is part of it being a monoblock amp.

these amps are a great SQ amp over other amps. of course they are not the best, but again, they are far from the worst. again, back to my example with the RF and the JL. As soon as I ripped my RF amp out and hooked up the JL, with out even setting the gains yet, i immediately noticed a drastic increase in SQ. I have competed in several competitions, attended numerous ones, along with USACi World Finals in 2001. I've seen many installs, and have heard many systems as well...Good sound is in the ear of the beholder...if you think it sounds good, then happy go lucky for you.

Of course, there are many other amps out there other than the JL for the same price, that put out "more power," they may not be as efficient as the JL's, and some may be AS efficient as the JL's, and others may be MORE efficient than the JL's. A lot of this is to sell the product to the people that like the sound of the product. I like the sound of the product, therefore I'm going to buy the product. Hence the reason i, too, run a JL amp (soon to be amps),
 

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I guess what it comes down to is what impedance you are running it at. More power to you 94sonoma for using a JL amp in SPL...definitely a different approach...i guess that would be the opposite of a cheater amp? Maybe you should look into the Brax SPL amp, you'd be in the 1-150 class and have 1000watts of power :) Unregulated (or slightly regulated) amps stable down to .5ohm stereo do have their advantages.
 

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I would just like to say...

:02redxbla

Are you both happy? Then everyone relax.... Breath in REEEEEEEEEE breath out LAXXXXXXXXX.....ahhhh gooood
 
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