S-10 Forum banner
1 - 20 of 25 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
put this little ballance shaft motor together with a custom grind comp cam that has a fast ramp rate (212/218 .550" 115lsa) with high pressure LS1 springs, titanium retainers, 1.7 LS1 shaft mounted rockers. had to take the front cover back off because the timing set was slapping back and forth at idle,/low RPM. has way too much slack in it. looking for a good timing set for this ballance shaft motor, and i dont see any double roller sets available for a motor with a ballance shaft. have you guys ran across this issue before? what timing sets have you used successfully on a ballance shaft motor? if nothing is available for use with the ballance shaft, whats the correct way to disable the ballance shaft, and what timing set do you use once its disabled? are you guys not seeing the same issues when you do a cam swap on a ballance shaft motor?

BTW this is in a syclone with a PT60 turbo 9.5:1 compression, and 65lb high impedance injectors, custom tuned on the syclone ECU, running E85 fuel daily. runs and drives great, just need to fix this timing set issue. thanks

e
 

·
Gaaoooooo
Joined
·
13,572 Posts
You can't run a double roller on a balance shaft motor. When I installed my comp cam I used a GM replacement chain but people seem to have goodluck with Cloyes chains.
 

·
Got Fuel Rails?
Joined
·
4,539 Posts
9-3154 is the part number for the cloyes. I have had it for the last 30K miles, no problems. My setup is a lot milder from the sounds of it though.
 

·
yes, that is a v6
Joined
·
2,628 Posts
e-rue said:
whats the correct way to disable the ballance shaft,

e
i took off the balance shaft drive gear and left the balance shaft in place. i have been told that if you remove it entirely there are oil passages that need to be plugged
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
s10ls said:
i took off the balance shaft drive gear and left the balance shaft in place. i have been told that if you remove it entirely there are oil passages that need to be plugged
yeah i kinda figured that, but if i delete the ballance shaft can i then use a double roller setup? anyone done this?

i read where you were asking about cams in your build post, if you need any help give me a shout. (dont use 1.6's on the exhaust and 1.52's on the intake.... thats backwards from a typical turbo cam setup, the 1.6's go on the intake and the 1.52's go on the exhaust, some people also prefer a reverse pattern cam for turbos, but i like a dual pattern.... same duration on the intake adn exhaust)

if anyone wants to follow the junkyard dog build up, heres a link to the post, adn it has a TON of pictures.... no 56k

http://phpbb2.turbotimelounge.us/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1144&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
 

·
yes, that is a v6
Joined
·
2,628 Posts
e-rue said:
i read where you were asking about cams in your build post, if you need any help give me a shout. (dont use 1.6's on the exhaust and 1.52's on the intake.... thats backwards from a typical turbo cam setup, the 1.6's go on the intake and the 1.52's go on the exhaust, some people also prefer a reverse pattern cam for turbos, but i like a dual pattern.... same duration on the intake adn exhaust)

thanks for the advice. gonna stick with stock rocker arms for now. what do you think about the cam i decided to go with?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
stay tuned on the timing set problem, im working 3 different angles to see if i can come up with a better solution.
first option involves a double roller timing set, and a lathe might be able to modify the ballance shaft gears and crank angle pickup ring to give me the clearance i need :cool: just not sure if it will fit behind the stock timing cover...... the older covers hav ea totally different bolt patttern.
second option is to replace the new style tiny chain with a tight 95 style chain (older chain)
third option is to use a tensioner.... susposedly certain 03ish mtotors had tensioners to address the timing chain problems with the ballance shaft motors. im hunting for the parts to see for myself. the tensioner would be nice.


rat said:
So those ls1 rockers just bolted right on? Did you have to clearence the pushrod holes?
no they didnt "just bolt on" the rocker rail was milled at 3 different angles to get the correct rocker geometry. the pushrod holes in the head were also enlarged.... however after dropping the overall height of the LS1 rockers significantly to achieve the desired location on the valve tip, its questionable as to if the pushrods would have cleared without that modification. might be able to get by with the stock sized holes. i quickly threw the 1.5 shaft mounted rockers, adn stock rails in it for rough tuning, but they will be swapped out once i get it tuned, and all the bugs worked out. also, the 1.7's when used on the LS1 head have a different overall geometry than the setup on my 4.3 heads...... so i question if they are actually 1.7's anymore... may be closer to 1.65's.... gonna have to set up an instrument to measure actual lift at the valve, and compare it to the lobe lift value of the cam to calculate rocker ratio in this configuration. i have strong suspicion that its no longer 1.7. also, the pushrod length is no longer stock, its shorter, thus reducing sprung weight on the lifters. if we can pull this mod off, and reproduce the rails for others, i think its will be a GREAT modification for guys with 01-03 shaft mounted rockers on their vortec motors.

s10ls said:
thanks for the advice. gonna stick with stock rocker arms for now. what do you think about the cam i decided to go with?
its TINY, but its not a bad combo if you go with 1.6 rockers...... i had one of those, and enjoyed it in one of my past builds for about 3000 miles....... then i did a bigger build :) actually.... i still have that cam if you want one. $150 otherwise let me hook you up with a custom grind.
 

·
yes, that is a v6
Joined
·
2,628 Posts
e-rue said:
its TINY, but its not a bad combo if you go with 1.6 rockers...... i had one of those, and enjoyed it in one of my past builds for about 3000 miles....... then i did a bigger build :) actually.... i still have that cam if you want one. $150 otherwise let me hook you up with a custom grind.
thats a wicked looking setup you got there. so you used the cam i have in your past build? i only went with that cam cause i got it new for cheap and i didnt want to drop alot of money on a cam for a balance shaft motor. i am looking for a non BS motor to build, when i start that project i will be sure to contact you about a custom grind.

when the time comes i'll shoot you a PM over at syty.net. i'll be in the market for a bigger turbo that will fit the stock style down pipe as well :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
ok guys im pretty much answering all my own questions here, but theres some great tech in this post for you guys with ballance shaft motors, so here ya go......

1. if you build a ballance shaft motor for an older S-10, you will have to replace the starter. the starter for the older motor is NOT happy with the new motor, and the flexplate will most likely contact the bendix and chatter when in reverse. also the new adn old oil pans are not compatible, so if its a 4wd or a 2wd get the correct pan. dont try to reuse the one of your old motor.

2. dont be afraid of the cams because its a BS motor and you cant get a double roller, build what you want there is a solution for the problem. if you want fast ramps, with massive lift, go for it. im having a BLAST with mine.

3. the timing set issue is not specific to me. i was pretty dead set in finding a solution even tho you guys said just use a cloyes timing set. thats not the solution. there are 2 separate service notices from GM about the problem with the sloppy loose timing set. apparently its a common problem to have gear chatter from the ballance shaft when the chain is loose. they make a really nice tensioner setup from the dealer and theres a detailed service bullitin with pictures of how to install it. if you guys are doing a cam swap, you have GOT to use this tensioner, its so necessary. no need to delete the ballance shaft, leave it entact. dont waste your time replacing the timing set, its not gonna fix your problem unless you get the "fix" kit. its only about $250 worth of parts and its worth it. ill post up with the part numbers in a bit. enjoy.

e
 

·
the youngest has been
Joined
·
4,358 Posts
why such a high CR on a turbo motor? also how much boost are you running
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
tippmann243 said:
why such a high CR on a turbo motor? also how much boost are you running
iv hit as much as 9psi so far with no knock retard whatsoever on the datalog. i was planning on setting it up to run 10psi on E85, but it appears i can go a good bit higher than that from what other people are getting. still this is a daily driver, so i wont go crazy with it. need to keep it reliable. probably still gonna set it up at 10psi. i LOVE the E85.... something really nice about getting 100octane gas for less than $2 a gallon, and knowing the money from that gas is going into the hands of american farmers rather than the muslims. as far as the compression ratio, i kept it stock.... this is a totally stock bottom end with about 12K on it, that i got from the boneyard. the trick to getting 4.3's to stay together is not detonating them. they are pretty durable otherwise.


guess the port work was worth it, this motor has a GREAT tone to it, now that its mostly tuned. everytime i upload a new program into the ECU it runs better and better.





e
 

·
Gone Fisting!
Joined
·
671 Posts
Those are some pretty heads ya got there lol, What kind of flow numbers are you looking for out of those heads? I'm Debating what i want to with my 4.3. i've built so many v8's but have very little experiance on a v6 let along a Balanace shaft motor on my 95. I'm hoping next winter to get to rebuilding it and doing a very stout NA 4.3 or possibly even supercharging it. I'm not to sure yet..
 

·
the youngest has been
Joined
·
4,358 Posts
e-rue said:
this is a totally stock bottom end with about 12K on it, that i got from the boneyard. the trick to getting 4.3's to stay together is not detonating them. they are pretty durable otherwise.
4.3's dont have a 9.5:1 CR

if its a stock bottom end depending on the injection type it could be a 9.0:1 or a 9.3:1, its most likley a 9.0:1 since its a balanced shaft motor

you got my hopes up, becuase im running a 9.5 and i wanna supercharge it :(
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
1968OldsMan said:
What kind of flow numbers are you looking for out of those heads?
flow numbers are a joke..... every bench is different, and every machinest flows at a diferent setting. flow benches are meant to match flow rates at varying lift values from port to port, and look for percent gains vs previous flow numbers on the same bench and heads. we never tell anyone what our flow numbers are because we get tired of hearing how they compare to some goofball's numbers. for example, im getting roughly 8% to16% gains in flow over the stock heads..... notice the gains vary wildly depending on the valve lift the flow rate is taken at. im not sure if that means anything to you, but keep in mind peek flow numbers at high lift values are not as important as you might think..... the valve is open to its max value for a very short period of time in relation to the amount of time its partially open. so a 16% gain at half lift is a significant improvement in flow. no matter what joe-shmoe says about "peek numbers".


theres no way its a low compression motor. we have built a TON of turbo 4.3 motors for sy/ty's with deep dish SRP pistons and ended up with around 8.6:1 with the vortec heads and cometic gaskets. i looked at the pistons on this and they were flat. at any rate, i wasnt too concerned with measuring it because i wasnt gonna change it. however im still convinced its well over 9:1

e
 

·
the youngest has been
Joined
·
4,358 Posts
e-rue said:
theres no way its a low compression motor. we have built a TON of turbo 4.3 motors for sy/ty's with deep dish SRP pistons and ended up with around 8.6:1 with the vortec heads and cometic gaskets. i looked at the pistons on this and they were flat. at any rate, i wasnt too concerned with measuring it because i wasnt gonna change it. however im still convinced its well over 9:1

e
flat as in no vlave reliefs? if thats then case then it isnt a stock bottom end like said earlier

stock should have 4 valve reliefs
 

·
Gaaoooooo
Joined
·
13,572 Posts
e-rue said:
ugggg......

of course it has valve reliefes. damn dood, have you ever seen a small block chevy piston without valve reliefes?

e
yes
 

·
the youngest has been
Joined
·
4,358 Posts
e-rue said:
ugggg......

of course it has valve reliefes. damn dood, have you ever seen a small block chevy piston without valve reliefes?

e
you are the one who said they were flat, giving me the impression that the motor had flat top pistons in it

:rolleyes:
 
1 - 20 of 25 Posts
Top