Suspension inspection Tutorial and Alignment Fundamentals/Procedures - Page 2 - S-10 Forum
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post #51 of 62 Old 07-16-2017, 11:10 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojarraman View Post
"If you have a part that is worn out, it has already thrown your specs out of acceptable tolerance, which will not necessarily be the same if you just slap a new part in there."

No. Rather, this is counter reasoning to a specious argument.

"slap a new part in there" is against the spirit of (and literal content of) most/all of what I'd suggested. It presumes a vagueness that wasn't intended. I'm not sure it adds, and perhaps obscures the paplpable truth about the case of FWD front toe-only cars. A front-toe car (and there are hundereds of thousands at least) suggests "only a LCA (no upper a-arm) car where the FSM (almost always) or at bare minimum FREQUENTLY states categoricaly w/r/t (front) alignment:
Step 1) Replace worn parts
Step 2) Adjust front toe. End of Story. There IS NO caster/camber recomended.
Let say a FWD car comes in for an alignment. I find a bad the rod end. The alignment heads are not hooked up until the part is replaced. I replace the part and perform the alignment setup procedure. I find the camber is out as well as the toe. I adjust everything I'm able to, including camber.

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post #52 of 62 Old 07-16-2017, 11:42 PM
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Re: Suspension inspection Tutorial and Alignment Fundamentals/Procedures

" ... a lot of what you said was misinformation resulting from theoretical education (lots of books and limited real world experience).

I think maybe that's pushing things a bit. I can't yet be certain.

I did the Intrigue last week, and as far as you say about "holes not or maybe not lining up on struts to knuckle," that's just not the case there. Nor with the Crysler Sebring. No hole where the strut meets the knuckle (unless oblate from the factory) I've seen of the few I've fixed ever came close to anything but "real snug." Doesn't mean it COULDN'T happen, of course, just means the Crysler and GM I did fit glove tight or tighter. Tighter than a nun's tummy. Of course the SPRINGS might be different on my Moogs than AC/Delco...there's little (if any) doubt the camber IS affected - in an inconsequential way - 'less there's indication otherwise which there wasn't. Call me "Mr. Lucky" Lol!

For clarity or conviennce I counted threads, which wasn't really much ado, beings the "thread count" isn't the only way to assure retro-fit accuracy/closeness, and FOREWENT any alignment WHATSOEVER. Then, purely by happenstance I spse, THE CARS (OUR CARS, MY CAR) DRIVES AND TRACKS LIKE A DREAM.

That's one instance. I did the Crysler year-before-last, loaded LCA/struts, and while g/f drove it WAY more than I, she reported the car handled better than when she bought it - and 6months/7-8,000 miles the front tires showed little or no significant wear. Maybe I got lucky, pure luck, 2-times-in-a-row?

Often is suggested (RWD) 3.5 caster LEFT and 3.0 right or vice-versa (the minutae isn't ... microscopic?) Surely there's more explanation than mere tire rotation? You're suggesting a front positive 0.1 versus a 0.0 L compared to a 0.0 or say 0.1R spec is going to result in the abberant wear in the photo? Huh?

100,000 mile tires. That reads one-hundred-thousand. Many if not most of these DIY alignments are 10+ year-old cars to start. And so for <$100 I can go buy a 100,000mile tire?? In which zipcode?

A 50,000 mile tire, in reality, actual, true miles, maybe. Or else, tires have REALLY changed since I bought a pair Goodyear 60,000 about 5 years ago ...

Some sort of statistical, or even individual instance, might help bear things out.

A car tire in midwest winter, operates at how many degreesF? and in summer? and a 0.01 (on a car spec'd at 0.1 total front) decrepancy will change toe (and/or camber) HOW MUCH?

The toe and/or caster/camber will DOUBTLESS be affected by ambient tempF. And that effect is LESS than a 0.01 descrepancy from 0.0? These could be measurable, meaning the experiment could be performed but is meaningless unless some stats/specs/ and/or actual experimental (trial and error) data were purported; nonetheless you seem to be purporting that "tire alignment plain and simple" (and perhaps rotation and regularly monitered PSI) is going to yeild umpteen (100,000) jillion miles, WHEREAS some (relatively minute) discrepancy in toe is going to "burn through tires." Is that so?
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post #53 of 62 Old 07-17-2017, 12:05 AM
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Re: Suspension inspection Tutorial and Alignment Fundamentals/Procedures

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Originally Posted by DfntPntbll View Post
Let say a FWD car comes in for an alignment. I find a bad the rod end. The alignment heads are not hooked up until the part is replaced. I replace the part and perform the alignment setup procedure. I find the camber is out as well as the toe. I adjust everything I'm able to, including camber.
Yet "finding out camber" is something the very very typical aligment shop purports to do - at $79 to $89 per pop.

And "finding out camber" on a car that HAS NO (typical) suggested camber adjust, outside reaming holes into the strut tower and/or going buying aftermarket camber bolts ... why bother?? why bother unless there's reason to suspect the car has developed atypical camber? How many 2nd gen Intrigue or Sebring or ... how often do these cars/mid-sedans develop that which the FSM suggests "replace worn suspension parts" as THE method of caster/camber adjust? Do you not ask the customer if it's been collision? Rode hard and put up wet? Just curious. Anyhow, it wouldn't matter - much - in this realm or spere of topic --- reason being the OBJECT of these type discussions is (often enough) "What CAN the guy who IS doing DIY align actually accomplish in a reasonable manner?"

You've said "pretty much nothing," and I get the drift, but doesn't seem like HELP very much. Not sure why, except the SPECIFICS of what I'm suggesting doesn't seem to hold any merit with you. So maybe you're 100% right, and I'm 100% wrong, and maybe so. Maybe, but maybe not. Time will tell.

A pro could probably care less what somebody like me might bring to the table (beings he's got jillions of syphosticated tools/methods). Matter of fact he might be annoyed. On the other hand, he MIGHT just say, once upon his life, "You've been asking some damn good questions for a rookie." I'll probably leave it to J. Q. public to decide, I spse.

So far, you seem to think of me as "Mr. Misinformation," and you're entitled to your opinion. And perhaps I think of you as "Mr. Lost in the Minutae." To each his own, and every man has his own profession. Curious, what/where are the names are the place(s) you do the alignments for 1/2 of $99?

Glad Tidings,
Mr. Lucky
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post #54 of 62 Old 07-17-2017, 12:18 AM
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Re: Suspension inspection Tutorial and Alignment Fundamentals/Procedures

Actually, now I've read yer junk a little closer, you do seem pushy. I was dining politely w/ g/f quickly reviewing things and she remarked, "did something spoil you're appetite?" and about all I could say was "grease monkey".

Thinkin' I'm singning out for a spell and enjoying a movie or game of 9-ball or sumpin!
Anyhow, to J.Q.,
All My Best!
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post #55 of 62 Old 07-17-2017, 07:06 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Suspension inspection Tutorial and Alignment Fundamentals/Procedures

Quote:
Originally Posted by mojarraman View Post
" ... a lot of what you said was misinformation resulting from theoretical education (lots of books and limited real world experience).

I think maybe that's pushing things a bit. I can't yet be certain.

I did the Intrigue last week, and as far as you say about "holes not or maybe not lining up on struts to knuckle," that's just not the case there. Nor with the Crysler Sebring. No hole where the strut meets the knuckle (unless oblate from the factory) I've seen of the few I've fixed ever came close to anything but "real snug." Doesn't mean it COULDN'T happen, of course, just means the Crysler and GM I did fit glove tight or tighter. Tighter than a nun's tummy. Of course the SPRINGS might be different on my Moogs than AC/Delco...there's little (if any) doubt the camber IS affected - in an inconsequential way - 'less there's indication otherwise which there wasn't. Call me "Mr. Lucky" Lol!

For clarity or conviennce I counted threads, which wasn't really much ado, beings the "thread count" isn't the only way to assure retro-fit accuracy/closeness, and FOREWENT any alignment WHATSOEVER. Then, purely by happenstance I spse, THE CARS (OUR CARS, MY CAR) DRIVES AND TRACKS LIKE A DREAM.

That's one instance. I did the Crysler year-before-last, loaded LCA/struts, and while g/f drove it WAY more than I, she reported the car handled better than when she bought it - and 6months/7-8,000 miles the front tires showed little or no significant wear. Maybe I got lucky, pure luck, 2-times-in-a-row?

Often is suggested (RWD) 3.5 caster LEFT and 3.0 right or vice-versa (the minutae isn't ... microscopic?) Surely there's more explanation than mere tire rotation? You're suggesting a front positive 0.1 versus a 0.0 L compared to a 0.0 or say 0.1R spec is going to result in the abberant wear in the photo? Huh?

100,000 mile tires. That reads one-hundred-thousand. Many if not most of these DIY alignments are 10+ year-old cars to start. And so for <$100 I can go buy a 100,000mile tire?? In which zipcode?

A 50,000 mile tire, in reality, actual, true miles, maybe. Or else, tires have REALLY changed since I bought a pair Goodyear 60,000 about 5 years ago ...

Some sort of statistical, or even individual instance, might help bear things out.

A car tire in midwest winter, operates at how many degreesF? and in summer? and a 0.01 (on a car spec'd at 0.1 total front) decrepancy will change toe (and/or camber) HOW MUCH?

The toe and/or caster/camber will DOUBTLESS be affected by ambient tempF. And that effect is LESS than a 0.01 descrepancy from 0.0? These could be measurable, meaning the experiment could be performed but is meaningless unless some stats/specs/ and/or actual experimental (trial and error) data were purported; nonetheless you seem to be purporting that "tire alignment plain and simple" (and perhaps rotation and regularly monitered PSI) is going to yeild umpteen (100,000) jillion miles, WHEREAS some (relatively minute) discrepancy in toe is going to "burn through tires." Is that so?
Just because a vehicle tracks straight or drives normal doesn't mean the toe is within acceptable specs. I've driven thousands that drove just fine, yet needed adjustment on the front and rear toe. Some vehicles with struts have and elongated upper or lower (sometimes both) holes to allow for camber adjustment, some are simply a sleeve with a retainer bolt, and others are fixed hole sizes and locations and require a cam bolt kit to change camber.

Look up the Michelin Defender. It comes with a 90,000 mile warranty and is readily available at most major tire retailers and averages around $140 each.

Typically, people don't drive from one side of the country to the other for an alignment, so weather and ambient temperature aren't really something to be taken into account. Even so, that is one reason I recommend that people have their alignment at least check every 6 months. If you have a warranty plan with a shop, then this is most of the time little to no charge.

I never said that proper alignment and tire pressure was all you had to have to get the max out of your tires. Rotation and balancing is also all part of basic tire maintenance. While a discrepancy of 0.1 one way or the other wont cause that drastic of a wear pattern (I used that as an exaggerated example) it will cause premature wear, feathering, inner or outer edge wear, and other issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mojarraman
Actually, now I've read yer junk a little closer, you do seem pushy. I was dining politely w/ g/f quickly reviewing things and she remarked, "did something spoil you're appetite?" and about all I could say was "grease monkey".

Thinkin' I'm singning out for a spell and enjoying a movie or game of 9-ball or sumpin!
Anyhow, to J.Q.,
All My Best
I wasn't being pushy. I was trying to correct some misinformation you had as well as answer your questions. If you took it that way, then that's not really my concern. If anyone has come off as rude here, it's you just now. The thread was created to be a guide for basic alignment aspects and to show people what they can look for to same themselves a little money instead of being ripped off by shops that sell parts just to get money. Yes, I am a grease monkey and I do damn well for myself doing it too. I don't mind it one bit.

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1993 Std. Cab S-10 4.8L bagged, traditional 3.25" BD
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post #56 of 62 Old 03-27-2018, 12:42 PM
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Re: Suspension inspection Tutorial and Alignment Fundamentals/Procedures

This is still a helpful thread... even though photobucket killed all the pictures.

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post #57 of 62 Old 03-27-2018, 01:00 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Suspension inspection Tutorial and Alignment Fundamentals/Procedures

I'm glad to see it's still getting some use and is helping people out. I'll see about transferring the images to a new host and either getting permissions to modify this one or make a new thread and have them merged.
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post #58 of 62 Old 03-27-2018, 05:33 PM
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Re: Suspension inspection Tutorial and Alignment Fundamentals/Procedures

If you provide me with new image tags I can replace the broken ones.


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post #59 of 62 Old 05-23-2018, 08:44 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Suspension inspection Tutorial and Alignment Fundamentals/Procedures

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If you provide me with new image tags I can replace the broken ones.
Thank you. Expect a message shortly. It'll be a copy and paste deal for you so you don't have to figure out what goes where.

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post #60 of 62 Old 02-10-2019, 03:05 PM
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Re: Suspension inspection Tutorial and Alignment Fundamentals/Procedures

Been quoted for replacement of my upper control arms at a local shop. Wondering why they did not suggest bushing-only replacement? Haynes suggests some models had welded in bushings that require full arm replacement. No mention of this online anywhere yet.
Advice?
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post #61 of 62 Old 02-10-2019, 03:31 PM
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Re: Suspension inspection Tutorial and Alignment Fundamentals/Procedures

By the time they R&R them, replace the ball joints, It's easier and faster to bolt in some Moog arms with all the new parts.

U.S.C.G. "Making sure the Navy doesn't get lost since 1790"

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post #62 of 62 Old 02-10-2019, 04:17 PM
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Re: Suspension inspection Tutorial and Alignment Fundamentals/Procedures

Yeah, it seems buying loaded arms is where things have gotten. Nobody want to mess with replacing bushings anymore. I still do them myself.


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