How to: R152a conversion - S-10 Forum
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post #1 of 67 Old 04-14-2012, 09:01 AM Thread Starter
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How to: R152a conversion

Of course there will be a lot of questions, but let me just say that I'm definitely not the pioneer of R152a conversions in vehicles. R152a has VERY similar properties to r12, and as many of us all know, R134a conversions don't really work as well as most of us wish. So if only there was some sort of refrigerant we could use in our old R12 systems that would work as well as R12 did.



Yes, good ol' electronics dusters. They contain r152a. You're welcome, everyone. I just used R152a today in my 91, and it's working great!

Here's a quick run-down of what to do:

Gather your equipment. You'll need everything pictured. Manifold gauges are pretty much a must. I used R-134 gauges because let's face it, when are you ever going to run into another time when R12 manifold gauges are useful? Get a NEW receiver/dryer, a new orifice tube, an R12 to R134a fitting conversion kit, a multi-pack of HNBR o-rings, 8oz of Ester oil, lots of non-chlorinated brake cleaner, a side can tap, and last but not least, rent or buy a vacuum pump. You'll need a source of compressed air for this job.



Let's start.

Remove all the lines. I started by removing the battery, it makes things easier. I've never seen such an dismal-looking battery tray. I'll fix that later Take the lines loose at the bottom of the condenser on the passenger's side.



I also removed the compressor to get all the old oil out. When I got the truck, the seller told me he replaced the compressor with a salvage yard unit, but he never charged it. So thankfully, the compressor never ran. Good, because almost every time you have to replace a compressor, you run into what's known as the BLACK DEATH!



Take the line off:



And remove the old receiver/dryer, and the bottom line off the evaporator.



New dryer, bottom line from evaporator:



Now, see the vertical tube sticking out the bottom of the evaporator core? Pull the old orifice tube out (straight up) with a pair of needle nose pliers. This, my friends, is the black death:







The compressor shits this stuff everywhere through the WHOLE system when it goes south. No big deal, a new orifice tube is $1.99, and a new drier is less than $30.

Now, here's why you bought several cans of brake parts cleaner. You're going to have to flush, SEVERAL times, everything. And I mean flush it all. Fill the evaporator, condenser, and all the lines full of brake cleaner, and blow it all out with compressed air. Hopefully, it entrains all the black death and oil out of your system. Do this numerous times.



Once you get every bit of anything in the system out, and it's completely dry and free of any oil or debris, turn the compressor over and spin it several times to get all the old oil out. Spin it backwards and forwards to get everything out. I like to add some oil to the compressor, spin it a few times, then drain it out the same way to sort of flush it out. Don't use brake cleaner on it.

Now, add your required amount of oil to the compressor. Mine was 8oz, others will be different depending on what type of compressor you have.

Install the compressor. Remember the orifice tube? I highlighted the direction it's supposed to go.



Notice, I have clean hands in this picture. Cleanliness is a must for AC systems. Install the orifice tube in the direction shown.



Reconnect all the lines with new HNBR O-rings, and make sure you lubricate them with oil. Reinstall everything, connect it all up!

Remember the vacuum pump? This is important. Vacuuming the system out removes any air bound up in the system. Regular air in refrigerant systems is bad because it's a non-condensable gas. It also boils off any moisture left over. Hook up the vacuum and suck it down to 30"Hg, and let it sit for about 10 minutes. If the vacuum held, continue on. If not, you've got a leak somewhere, and you need to fix it.

Hook up your manifold gauges and shut both valves. Attach the side can tap to the yellow hose. Tap the first can. This is where you BLEED THE HOSE! Once again, non-condensable gasses are trapped in that line, so get it out. You need to loosen the yellow line at the manifold gauges a little until just a tiny bit of refrigerant leaks out. It'll get cold, be careful.

Charge 2 cans, assuming you're using 12oz cans. The first one should go in with the engine off. The vacuum you pulled will draw the refrigerant in pretty easily. The second can will go in with the engine on, AC on (max AC) and the fan on low.

The reason I say 2 cans is simple. The molecular weight of R12 is 120. R152a is 68. A quick calculation, and 2.5lbs turns out to be 22.4oz. So if you use 2 12oz cans, that's 24 oz. Some will get bled out, some will not go in because the can tap is not exactly perfect science. Trust me, you'll get very close.


Looking back, I spent right at $100 for the whole thing. I already had the manifold gauges, but for an extra $50 at harbor freight, you can have your very own set. You'll pay an astronomical amount more than that to have your AC fixed at any garage, I don't care WHERE you go, it'll cost way more. In south Georgia, $150 is worth it for AC, especially if you get stuck in traffic.

I may be forgetting something, so don't think this is the absolute 100% service manual for air conditioning.

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post #2 of 67 Old 04-14-2012, 09:12 AM
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Re: How to: R152a conversion

Very nice write up!
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post #3 of 67 Old 04-14-2012, 09:29 AM
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Re: How to: R152a conversion

it would make a good "sticky"

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post #4 of 67 Old 04-14-2012, 10:25 AM
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Re: How to: R152a conversion

Very awesome!

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post #5 of 67 Old 04-14-2012, 09:31 PM
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Re: How to: R152a conversion

Cool right up on R152A, Never really heard of it before.
Does it really seem better then R134A? After reading your wright up I found this SAE Paper on R152a
It seems like a viable alternative to R134A,
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post #6 of 67 Old 04-14-2012, 09:34 PM Thread Starter
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Re: How to: R152a conversion

This forum really needs a How-to or DIY section. I like making threads like this each time I do stuff to my own vehicles. It's good documentation for my own work, and potentially helps others at the same time. I was on a Tiburon forum years ago when I owned one, and there was a single sticky thread in their DIY section for requests. Other forum members would graciously post up a DIY for that request if they 1) had the proper technical knowledge , and 2) were getting ready to do that maintenance/modification/repair to their own vehicle. Pretty neat system that worked well.

I hope this spreads
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post #7 of 67 Old 04-14-2012, 09:58 PM Thread Starter
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Re: How to: R152a conversion

Quote:
Originally Posted by weroberts View Post
Cool right up on R152A, Never really heard of it before.
Does it really seem better then R134A? After reading your wright up I found this SAE Paper on R152a
It seems like a viable alternative to R134A,

Great question. Yes, it does seem better than R134a. I've been in numerous vehicles that have been converted to 134a from R12, and it just seems like they never really work the same. I need to look for it, but I found a study that proved that using 152a used approximately 10% less fuel to do the same job that R134a tries to do.

Turns out, though, that since R152a is flammable, there are tree-hugging pussies that are concerned for the use. The test involves spraying the substance at some set pressure over a lit candle flame. If the stream catches fire, it's deemed flammable. If the fire travels up the stream, or if when the ignition source (lit candle) is removed and the fire stays, then it's deemed extremely flammable.

Funny, though. There are apparently global-warming factors on several substances. R134a has a global warming potential of somewhere around 1300. R152a is around 140.

Hippie tree huggers around the world are getting pissed, and want to completely phase out R134a. The Germans have resorted to using CO2. CO2! Are you kidding!??! Do you know how hard it is to seal a system ,especially with a compressor that requires a seal around a rotating shaft, from CO2? You know those fancy little leak sniffers that automotive techs use? Kiss those goodbye. Everything generates CO2, so if you got some sort of CO2 sniffing device, it'd shit its pants every time you turned it on!

Some say the next step in automotive refrigerants is some crazy substance known as R1234yf. History's going to repeat itself, and R134 is going to be known as "the good stuff" just like R12 is now. Liquid GOLD!

Will R152a kill everyone? Is it going to deplete the ozone layer and destroy the future for your children's children? Well, potentially. But it's a hell of a lot better and far less baby seal-clubbing than R134. For something that the EPA says is OK for you to spray on your keyboards to remove dust, and just completely discharge into the environment, I can't see why using it in an automotive AC system is bad. Especially when it cools so well!
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post #8 of 67 Old 04-15-2012, 10:15 AM
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Re: How to: R152a conversion

R1234yf is suppose to be damn near close to R12 in cooling factor, (its also in price factor) Mercedes Benz is already putting it into 1500 of their 2013 SL550 and only 1500 because thats all they could get because its not readily available, that should tell you how much it costs
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post #9 of 67 Old 04-16-2012, 08:44 PM Thread Starter
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Re: How to: R152a conversion

I can only imagine how much it's going to cost. That figures though. Leave it to hippies to ruin it for everyone.


Stick it to the hippie fags. Convert your refrigerant to use keyboard dusters!
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post #10 of 67 Old 05-26-2012, 09:58 PM
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Re: How to: R152a conversion

how is this working out after a month?

my system needs a recharge of r12, but i am considering just overhauling the whole system, which is how i found this thread.

i'm guessing you are using the r4 compressor?

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post #11 of 67 Old 05-29-2012, 06:00 AM
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Re: How to: R152a conversion

bump!

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post #12 of 67 Old 05-30-2012, 09:32 AM
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Re: How to: R152a conversion

I seriously thought R1234yf was just a sarcastic joke but googled it and can't believe its really called that with the sequence of 1234 in the name haha. Anyways, from what I've read so far rumors are thinking it will be around 40 to 60 dollars a pound for the new stuff. Much more than R134a.

Heck its to the point if you run an R12 system you might as well get a tech to get you some R12 and charge your system for ya if you go the R1234yf route. Ridiculous.

I may just hit up my friend who is an HVAC Tech and see what he'd charge to flush the A/C and refill it with R12.

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post #13 of 67 Old 05-30-2012, 11:24 AM
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Re: How to: R152a conversion

would be nice to hear back from the op about how this system is working so far.

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post #14 of 67 Old 06-01-2012, 01:51 AM
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Re: How to: R152a conversion

Mine is 134 converted and it throws ice cubes out of the vents.. cools just fine. far as the OP having black death on the orifice valve... That isn't even close to black death.
This is black death.
his tube just showed old age.
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post #15 of 67 Old 06-01-2012, 04:06 AM
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Re: How to: R152a conversion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_Rockford View Post
Mine is 134 converted and it throws ice cubes out of the vents.. cools just fine. far as the OP having black death on the orifice valve... That isn't even close to black death.
This is black death.
DAMN!!!!

got my system evacuated and charged this afternoon using the r152a.

it's blowing about 48-50 degrees at the vent at idle and max a/c on low fan with ambient outside temp of 101 and 4% humidity.

for the time being to test the r152a, i am using a new stock orifice replacement instead of the new variable.

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post #16 of 67 Old 06-03-2012, 02:46 PM
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Re: How to: R152a conversion

i am not sure if i had bogus readings or what, but while driving, i am seeing 38-43 degrees at the vent with outside temps of about 95-100.

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post #17 of 67 Old 06-03-2012, 02:57 PM
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Re: How to: R152a conversion

it will get colder when you are moving due to increased airflow across the condenser. if your fan clutch is weak, it could exagerate the problem at idle even more
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post #18 of 67 Old 06-03-2012, 03:01 PM
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Re: How to: R152a conversion

the fan clutch is new.

based on my experience with other stock vehicles, at idle the air does not get as cold obviously.

i am just trying to get enough info to decide if i want to use a variable orifice valve.

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post #19 of 67 Old 06-03-2012, 03:34 PM
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Re: How to: R152a conversion

Quote:
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R1234yf is suppose to be damn near close to R12 in cooling factor
Dont know where you read this but that is completely wrong. In fact R1234 needs a redundant cooling system (i.e. a second condensor insided the evaporator box) just to have the same thermal transfer capabilities as R134. We are all going to be taking it in the rear as far as refrigerant goes in the next five to ten years because of the tree huggers.

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post #20 of 67 Old 06-03-2012, 03:48 PM
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Re: How to: R152a conversion

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Originally Posted by NitrousPowrdSS View Post
Dont know where you read this but that is completely wrong. In fact R1234 needs a redundant cooling system (i.e. a second condensor insided the evaporator box) just to have the same thermal transfer capabilities as R134. We are all going to be taking it in the rear as far as refrigerant goes in the next five to ten years because of the tree huggers.
i don't know about you, but i think i'll be stocking up on ultra duster while it's less than 5 bucks a can.

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Re: How to: R152a conversion

Quote:
Originally Posted by NitrousPowrdSS View Post
Dont know where you read this but that is completely wrong. In fact R1234 needs a redundant cooling system (i.e. a second condensor insided the evaporator box) just to have the same thermal transfer capabilities as R134. We are all going to be taking it in the rear as far as refrigerant goes in the next five to ten years because of the tree huggers.
Was what I was told by a few of the head sales people that where giving a presentation on the new SL, I'll have to read into it more to learn about it I guess, I just assumed the guy new what he was talking about lol

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post #22 of 67 Old 06-03-2012, 10:08 PM
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Re: How to: R152a conversion

I was googling around about it tonight.., pretty viable solution. Only one thing.., did he mention that it is extremely flammable ???

Check this page out on Gas molecules and gases that are sold in the US....
http://encyclopedia.airliquide.com/E...a.asp?GasID=91


Chemical Formula:
F2HC-CH3
Difluoroethane-1,1 (R152a)
CAS Number : 75-37-6
UN1030

;1,1-difluoroethane; Halocarbon 152A; R 152A; 152 A; Difluoroethane; Ethylidene fluoride; Freon 152A; Ethylene fluoride; Ethylidene difluoride; HFC-152a;


Gas Properties

Molecular Weight
  • Molecular weight : 66.05 g/mol
Critical point
  • Critical temperature : 114 °C (<=This what I'd be worried about.. Underhood temps reach waaay above this temp !!!!)
  • Critical pressure : 47.6 bar (pressure in a compresser is much higher than this and can make it reach much higher temps than above !!)
Gaseous phase
  • Specific gravity (air = 1) (1.013 bar and 21 °C (70 °F)) : 2.36
  • Specific volume (1.013 bar and 21 °C (70 °F)) : 0.365 m3/kg
  • Heat capacity at constant pressure (Cp) (1.013 bar and 30 °C (86 °F)) : 0.07 kJ/(mol.K)
  • Heat capacity at constant volume (Cv) (1.013 bar and 30 °C (86 °F)) : 0.062 kJ/(mol.K)
  • Ratio of specific heats (Gamma:Cp/Cv) (1.013 bar and 30 °C (86 °F)) : 1.135881
Miscellaneous
  • Autoignition temperature : 455 °C
The Major Hazards Of This Gas:
  • Major hazard : Fire
  • Toxicity (Am. Conf. Of Gov. Ind. Hygienists ACGIH 2000 Edition) : None Established
  • Flammability limits in air (STP conditions) : 4.9-20.2 vol%
  • Odour : Slightly Ethereal
  • UN Number : UN1030
  • EINECS Number : 200-866-1
  • DOT Label (USA) : FG
  • DOT Hazard class (USA) : Flammable Gas
I myself will stick with Freeze 12 when I can find it. Or do the 134 conversion.
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post #23 of 67 Old 06-03-2012, 10:16 PM
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Re: How to: R152a conversion

you are more worried about r152's critical temp point when r134's is lower with an even lower bar pressure?

edited to add that the epa has r152a listed as an acceptable refrigerant in auto a/c systems, but i'll let your google skills find it.




H2FC-CF3
1,1,1,2-Tetrafluoroethane (R134A)
CAS Number : 811-97-2
UN3159


;1,1,1,2-Tetrafluoroethane; Freon 134a; Ethane, 1,1,1,2-tetrafluoro-; Halocarbon 134a; 1,2,2,2-Tetrafluoroethane; HFC-134a;





Main applications
  • Industries
    Applications

  • Other industries
    Tetrafluoroethane (R134A) is a blend component for refrigeration.
    It also a propellant for aerosol and a blowing agent for extruded polystyrene foams.
    It replaces the CFC R12 (dichlorodifluoromethane) and in few years the HCFC R22 (chlorodifluoromethane).
Top of the page


Gas Properties
Molecular Weight
  • Molecular weight : 102.03 g/mol

Solid phase
  • Melting point (1.013 bar) : -101 °C

Liquid phase
  • Liquid density (1.013 bar and 25 °C (77 °F)) : 1206 kg/m3
  • Boiling point (1.013 bar) : -26.6 °C
  • Latent heat of vaporization (1.013 bar at boiling point) : 215.9 kJ/kg
  • Vapor pressure (at 20 °C or 68 °F) : 5.7 bar
  • Vapor pressure (at 5 °C or 41 °F) : 3.5 bar
  • Vapor pressure (at 15 °C or 59 °F) : 4.9 bar
  • Vapor pressure (at 50 °C or 122 °F) : 13.2 bar

Critical point
  • Critical temperature : 100.9 °C
  • Critical pressure : 40.6 bar
  • Critical density : 512 kg/m3

Triple point
  • Triple point temperature : -103.3 °C

Gaseous phase
  • Gas density (1.013 bar at boiling point) : 5.28 kg/m3
  • Gas density (1.013 bar and 15 °C (59 °F)) : 4.25 kg/m3
  • Compressibility Factor (Z) (1.013 bar and 15 °C (59 °F)) : 1
  • Specific gravity (air = 1) (1.013 bar and 15 °C (59 °F)) : 3.25
  • Specific volume (1.013 bar and 15 °C (59 °F)) : 0.235 m3/kg
  • Heat capacity at constant pressure (Cp) (1.013 bar and 25 °C (77 °F)) : 0.087 kJ/(mol.K)

Miscellaneous
Solubility in water (1 bar and 25 °C (77 °F)) : 0.21 vol/vol[/quote]

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post #24 of 67 Old 06-03-2012, 10:39 PM
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Re: How to: R152a conversion

I'm a HVAC tech..have been for 20+ yrs... you can use MP39..R401... great drop in for r-12...yes it will work in automotive to.....

http://www2.dupont.com/Refrigerants/.../SuvaMP39.html

now to other refrigerants...I heard of some using propane as a refrigerant..it worked very well....till you got a leak... then it exploded.......... becarefull what you use....
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post #25 of 67 Old 06-03-2012, 10:48 PM
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Re: How to: R152a conversion

yeah, apparently, i can drive into mexico and they will charge it on the cheap with propane.

yeah....no thank you.

i am pleased with the r152a right now with the way it's running. would like a baseline on pressures though.

in regards to the flammability of r152a, i figure it has to be less dangerous than a butane lighter.

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post #26 of 67 Old 06-03-2012, 10:59 PM
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Re: How to: R152a conversion

This is all very interesting. I'm no refrigerant technician but I'd like to bring up a few points:

R134a has smaller molecules than R12. R134a will escape right through the R12 hoses. This is why hoses and seals need to be changed when upgrading an older R12 system to R134a.

The molecules of R152A is even smaller than the R134a molecule so R152a won't work in a R12 system.

If R152a is as flammable as noted in this thread, I would say it's not a good idea to use it in an automobile. In a front end accident, the condenser always takes a hit. Leaking highly flammable gas around a hot engine is never a good idea.

As a comparison, how flammable is R134a?

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Re: How to: R152a conversion

I'm not saying it wont work...just becarefull.... I'll use the R401.. but I'll keep a eye out on how this works out...keep us posted...
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post #28 of 67 Old 06-03-2012, 11:01 PM
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Re: How to: R152a conversion

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This is all very interesting. I'm no refrigerant technician but I'd like to bring up a few points:

R134a has smaller molecules than R12. R134a will escape right through the R12 hoses. This is why hoses and seals need to be changed when upgrading an older R12 system to R134a.

The molecules of R152A is even smaller than the R134a molecule so R152a won't work in a R12 system.

If R152a is as flammable as noted in this thread, I would say it's not a good idea to use it in an automobile. In a front end accident, the condenser always takes a hit. Leaking highly flammable gas around a hot engine is never a good idea.

As a comparison, how flammable is R134a?

or a leaking evaporator... then someone lights a cig....just a thought....
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post #29 of 67 Old 06-03-2012, 11:08 PM
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Re: How to: R152a conversion

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This is all very interesting. I'm no refrigerant technician but I'd like to bring up a few points:

R134a has smaller molecules than R12. R134a will escape right through the R12 hoses. This is why hoses and seals need to be changed when upgrading an older R12 system to R134a.

The molecules of R152A is even smaller than the R134a molecule so R152a won't work in a R12 system.

If R152a is as flammable as noted in this thread, I would say it's not a good idea to use it in an automobile. In a front end accident, the condenser always takes a hit. Leaking highly flammable gas around a hot engine is never a good idea.

As a comparison, how flammable is R134a?

i'm not an expert either, but i will tell you that i'll let you know how my system is doing in a month.

i'm not buying the "smaller molecules will escape".

directly from: http://idqusa.com/faqs/?faq=10 the company that makes the retrofit kits that you see on the shelves of walmart and all the parts stores:

Quote:
I heard that the R134a molucule is smaller then the R12 molecule. Will my hoses leak?

It was originally assumed that the smaller R134a molecule could cause leakage, but tests have proven that the hoses and o-rings do not need to be replaced to prevent leaking. In fact, General Motors states that: “o-rings and hoses in most GM vehicles are compatible with R134a and do not need replacement during retrofit.”
now it would also help if the o.p. could take a few moments to comment on how his system is running after a month from when he posted this.

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post #30 of 67 Old 06-03-2012, 11:11 PM
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Re: How to: R152a conversion

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or a leaking evaporator... then someone lights a cig....just a thought....
seriously?

here:

http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrigerants/lists/mvacs.html

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post #31 of 67 Old 06-03-2012, 11:21 PM
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Re: How to: R152a conversion

agin I didnt say it wont work...I have tried most r-12 replacements on the market.. I only have 20 yrs in the field....... I'll watch & see how this plays out... I can read the data... I own my own bussiness in the refrigeration field... I have lots of data on all types of refrigerants... epa requires me to have this... retrofits are not new to me....I hope this works out well then we can all go to office max to get our refrigerant.... & as soon as the epa get wind of this it will be changed...
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post #32 of 67 Old 06-03-2012, 11:41 PM
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Re: How to: R152a conversion

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agin I didnt say it wont work...I have tried most r-12 replacements on the market.. I only have 20 yrs in the field....... I'll watch & see how this plays out... I can read the data... I own my own bussiness in the refrigeration field... I have lots of data on all types of refrigerants... epa requires me to have this... retrofits are not new to me....I hope this works out well then we can all go to office max to get our refrigerant.... & as soon as the epa get wind of this it will be changed...
while trying to not sound like a dick, but in any case it will, i can respect your knowledge of what you are used to and currently using for refrigerants on the market, i won't discount the use of r152a until factual data is presented to show that it will absolutely not work.

oh, in your 20 years, what can you tell me about the hazards of the pag oils in r134a systems with a leak, since the refrigerant does carry the oil through the system.

if you read the epa's info, such as this:

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2008-06-12/pdf/E8-13086.pdf

you will see that the epa recognizes r152a as a viable substitute for cfc-12.

similarly, i honestly think that this ozone tree hugging bullshit is nothing more than a money making scam between dupont and the government.

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post #33 of 67 Old 06-04-2012, 03:45 PM
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Re: How to: R152a conversion

Interesting info I looked through within the comments. While it does show that r152a is an acceptable substitute to cfc-12 in automotive applications you will also noticed where it says system that its acceptable only in a new system and not retro fitted. The problem is I haven't seen an official r152a system for cars and trucks. That's where the EPA would get ya I'd think.

I'm not taking sides but just something I thought I'd chime in on.

Though I also would like to know how the OP system is holding. Problem is for me I have an aftermarket AC system in my S10.

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post #34 of 67 Old 06-04-2012, 03:59 PM
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Re: How to: R152a conversion

I had a chat with my brother who's well versed in automotive A/C systems. He knew all about R152a. He says it's as flammable as proprane and very dangerous to use in cars or trucks.

I would say pass on using the stuff.

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post #35 of 67 Old 06-04-2012, 06:16 PM
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Re: How to: R152a conversion

i am really interested in seeing these flammability tests that were done.

out of curiosity, and not a smart thing to do, i just went outside and popped the tab on a brand new can of ultra duster.

holding the can upright, i lit a cigarette lighter and pressed the ultra duster trigger. NOTHING.

did the same with the can upside down for the liquid, and guess what, NOTHING.


so what circumstances caused the ultra duster to become flammable?

until i see lab docs that show under what condition this stuff is a danger, other than the exposure to it from a leak, which would include the leaking of the oil in the system, of which i'd be more concerned with, i'm not going to cower to the fear mongering of the epa and so called "professional opinion".

let's face it here, how many professionals lose money every time some one does it themselves?

and if it were up to the epa, breathing would be outlawed.

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post #36 of 67 Old 06-04-2012, 06:33 PM
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Re: How to: R152a conversion

Taken from their web site:

SECTION V - FIRE AND EXPLOSION HAZARD DATA
Flash Point -<-50 C (<-58 F) Flammable Limits LEL - 3.9 Auto Ig. 454C UEL - 16.9
Fire and Explosion Hazards - Flammable. Cylinders are equipped with temperature and pressure relief devices
but still may rupture under fire conditions. Use water spray to cool cylinders and tanks.
Extinguishing Media - Water spray, Water fog, Dry chemical.
Special Fire Fighting Procedures - Keep container cool with water spray. If gas exiting container ignites, stop
flow of gas. Do not put out the fire unless leak can be stopped immediately. Self-contained breathing apparatus
(SCBA) is required if containers rupture and contents are released under fire conditions.
National Fire Protection Association (NFPA 30B) - Level 1 Aerosols (lowest flammability rating)
Consumer Products Safety Commission (CPSC 1500.3 (c)(6).16CFR - Not flammable


Doesnt seem as flammable as propane according to them

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post #37 of 67 Old 06-04-2012, 08:05 PM
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Re: How to: R152a conversion

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while trying to not sound like a dick, but in any case it will, i can respect your knowledge of what you are used to and currently using for refrigerants on the market, i won't discount the use of r152a until factual data is presented to show that it will absolutely not work.

oh, in your 20 years, what can you tell me about the hazards of the pag oils in r134a systems with a leak, since the refrigerant does carry the oil through the system.

if you read the epa's info, such as this:

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2008...f/E8-13086.pdf

you will see that the epa recognizes r152a as a viable substitute for cfc-12.

similarly, i honestly think that this ozone tree hugging bullshit is nothing more than a money making scam between dupont and the government.


I agree the tree huggers & epa are just making more $$$ for others... not me... I dont use the PAG... I use the ester ...ploy ester oil seems to work better...
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post #38 of 67 Old 07-12-2012, 08:03 PM
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Re: How to: R152a conversion

Update:

this past weekend, i finally got the fittings and what not for my gauges that i wanted and also picked up a couple ford orifice tubes. i also had to replace the compressor hose manifold seals.

i used a ford red orifice tube this time around and the pic below is the vent temp with the engine at operating temp, ambient temp at 80, about 850 rpm in park with the fan on level 2 and the a/c on max.


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post #39 of 67 Old 07-14-2012, 05:45 PM
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Re: How to: R152a conversion

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and if it were up to the epa, breathing would be outlawed.
You said it all right there.

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post #40 of 67 Old 07-14-2012, 05:53 PM
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Re: How to: R152a conversion

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You said it all right there.
i remember a few years back when the epa was all up in arms about lead shot for bird hunting.......

funny, they did not seem interested in backing the legalization of suppressors for all types of shooting, but then they wouldn't get a piece of that pie.

i picked up a snap-on air conditioning training manual from the swap meet today.

i happened to open to the page that discusses the hazards of r-12 catching fire and phosgene gas as a byproduct.

strange that it did not list the hazard of 134, unless i missed it.

if anyone is interested, i think i may scan it to pdf.

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post #41 of 67 Old 07-15-2012, 02:47 PM
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Re: How to: R152a conversion

I'd think definitely anything that's a gas can be dangerous, especially under pressure. We also forget we drive with enough gas in the back to blow the vehicle up but luckily someone in the engineering dept knew what they were talking about haha

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post #42 of 67 Old 07-18-2012, 06:12 PM
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Re: How to: R152a conversion

I have not yet tried this, I am a little concerned with any possibility of fire. I guess, I am of the opinion to wait and see how it works for others.
Thanks for sharing the information.

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post #43 of 67 Old 07-18-2012, 11:19 PM
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Re: How to: R152a conversion

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I have not yet tried this, I am a little concerned with any possibility of fire. I guess, I am of the opinion to wait and see how it works for others.
Thanks for sharing the information.
then stick with r12 or r134.

r12 is just as bad as r152, but what do i know except the fact that my a/c blows nice and cold and the compressor doesn't load the engine down like it did before with the r134 that was in it.

you can also google r152 conversion and you will find that many other diy'ers have done similar to their vehicles of different makes.

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post #44 of 67 Old 07-18-2012, 11:23 PM
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Re: How to: R152a conversion

interesting! i just popped 134 in my blazer, it's working amazingly for me...it's just a beater truck so i popped a 134 fitting on it and filled it up

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post #45 of 67 Old 01-22-2013, 03:41 PM Thread Starter
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Re: How to: R152a conversion

Well, the OP is back finally. Being in the Navy means you go on deployments, so forgive me for being gone for a little while

The AC is still rocking the R152 charge, and it's still cooling just fine. I'm not getting 29 degrees like damanx is, but it still gets chilly in there.

As for the flammability thing, I'm pretty sure that's a little hyped up by a computer chair philosopher. People have been afraid of getting hit in the rear because that's where the gas tank is. Back in reality, you could shoot the gas tank with a high-powered rifle and still not blow it up. Because gasoline is explosive only in its atomized form. I'm sure that somewhere in this world that there are more than a few cases where people have dusted their keyboards with this exact product while a candle is burning nearby, or someone's got a lit cigarette in their mouth. If they blew up, I'd be willing to bet that the Mythbusters would have done an episode about it. I have a spare can that I haven't needed yet, so I'm going to go set it on fire. If I don't come back with an update, there are a few people that need to start evacuating their systems. Well, don't evacuate it, that would contaminate the R134 evacuation machine... dust your keyboards with your "refrigerant" instead.
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post #46 of 67 Old 01-22-2013, 05:02 PM Thread Starter
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Re: How to: R152a conversion

Test results:

I had a fully charged can at first. I lit a mini torch in my garage and sprayed the duster right at it. It blew the flame out. I discharged the can until the pressure was very low, then dusted the flame again. This time, it made a torch out of the duster can. Not like a huge Rammstein style flamethrower, but it carried the flame.

So yep. It's flammable. Nowhere near as flammable as propane. I've lit enough propane grills to know what that stuff can do! But I still don't really know why it matters though. Fuel leaks in the engine bay lead to car-b-ques all the time. Diesel meatheads use propane to make their coal-burner trucks faster. Hell, I caught a truck on fire by power-braking too long. The front seal on the transmission gave out and it leaked ATF on the catalytic converter. So the argument for R152 being unsafe to use because it's flammable seems... pointless.
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post #47 of 67 Old 01-22-2013, 07:48 PM
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Re: How to: R152a conversion

Yeah, considering that the "keyboard duster aerosols" come in r152 and r134a, i find the flammability factor a non issue.

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post #48 of 67 Old 10-12-2013, 01:51 AM
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Re: How to: R152a conversion

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Yeah, considering that the "keyboard duster aerosols" come in r152 and r134a, i find the flammability factor a non issue.
The label isn't exactly "honest". Take a duster outside and spray through a flame. It becomes a flame thrower and it will keep going without the lighter and give off a very pungent smelled and more irritating than you've ever experienced.

http://www.staples.com/Fellowes-Pres...product_662285

Read the warning about the use on shredders. What I described and the warning should give you a clue about how flammable it is.

It catches on fire just like butane. When 152a catches on fire or touches something very hot(like a leak near exhaust manifold) it gives off a highly toxic fume of hydrofluoric acid (HF)

This conversion is illegal, just like propane concoction, but a flammable propane concoction beats another flammable one that also gives off a toxic gas as it burns.

Only thing you ought to do is to label whatever witch's blend you put in the system. If/when your car finds its way to a repair shop eventually and they hook it up to a machine, it will ruin contaminate all the R12 in their recovery machine, which will "infect" other cars with contaminated R12.

Also, dusters that you buy these days have bitterant added to discourage huffers. It will say so on the can. That's a "contaminant" that you really don't want in your system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agreen View Post
Test results:

I had a fully charged can at first. I lit a mini torch in my garage and sprayed the duster right at it.
Well, try it below your head level, then get a whiff of the air once you stand up. You've probably never smelled something this irritating. If you blow a hose as you're driving and this stuff comes in contact with something hot, HF vapor is not something you want coming in through air intake.
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post #49 of 67 Old 10-12-2013, 02:55 AM
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Re: How to: R152a conversion

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The label isn't exactly "honest". Take a duster outside and spray through a flame. It becomes a flame thrower and it will keep going without the lighter and give off a very pungent smelled and more irritating than you've ever experienced.

http://www.staples.com/Fellowes-Pres...product_662285

Read the warning about the use on shredders. What I described and the warning should give you a clue about how flammable it is.

It catches on fire just like butane. When 152a catches on fire or touches something very hot(like a leak near exhaust manifold) it gives off a highly toxic fume of hydrofluoric acid (HF)

This conversion is illegal, just like propane concoction, but a flammable propane concoction beats another flammable one that also gives off a toxic gas as it burns.

Only thing you ought to do is to label whatever witch's blend you put in the system. If/when your car finds its way to a repair shop eventually and they hook it up to a machine, it will ruin contaminate all the R12 in their recovery machine, which will "infect" other cars with contaminated R12.

Also, dusters that you buy these days have bitterant added to discourage huffers. It will say so on the can. That's a "contaminant" that you really don't want in your system.

Well, try it below your head level, then get a whiff of the air once you stand up. You've probably never smelled something this irritating. If you blow a hose as you're driving and this stuff comes in contact with something hot, HF vapor is not something you want coming in through air intake.
Interesting.......

Let me guess....you work for the epa? How about a shareholder in Dupont?

You do know that the epa has approved new vehicle builds with 152?

Maybe not.

How about the fact that other countries have been phasing out r134 with 152?

Maybe not....again....

In any case, who ****in cares.

If you had nothing positive to add to this thread, other than labeling a system using an alternative, why bother?

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post #50 of 67 Old 10-12-2013, 11:55 AM
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Re: How to: R152a conversion

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Interesting.......

Let me guess....you work for the epa? How about a shareholder in Dupont?
Then, it makes no sense that I'd be favoring a general hydrocarbon blend over 152a that DuPont produces, does it? Your snark comment just made it clear that you have no clue what you're talking about.

Quote:
You do know that the epa has approved new vehicle builds with 152?
In *new* systems. Not for retrofits. But then, isobutane is actually used for refrigerators in Europe and Asia.


Quote:
How about the fact that other countries have been phasing out r134 with 152?
This is all environmentalism. 134a was put out to replace R12 solely for environmental reasons.

Quote:
If you had nothing positive to add to this thread, other than labeling a system using an alternative, why bother?
I'm just saying that there are products such as HC-134a and HC-12a sold by various vendors online, which actually blend BETTER with mineral oil than 152a and does not give off hydrofluoric acid vapor if it catches on fire or exposed to a very hot surface. These don't have huffer deterring bitterant that can mess up your system in the long run and if you look online, you'll see that they cost about the same as buying 134a at AutoZone.

What I'm adding give the readers to make their own informed decision.

As far as labeling, If you don't label it and it finds its way into a shop, its the mechanic's shop that lose the money for the ruined refrigerant and the cost to get rid of it, not me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iJerk_dime View Post
interesting! i just popped 134 in my blazer, it's working amazingly for me...it's just a beater truck so i popped a 134 fitting on it and filled it up
Pressures for R12 and R134a are almost the same, so it will work, for now. The difference is that R134a and mineral oil used in R12 systems don't mix, so as oil leaves the compressor bit by bit as a mist, it will just stagnate in the system and pool like water in gas tank and not come back to the compressor. Eventually the compressor runs out of oil, seizes up and obliterates itself.

A drop-in retrofit R134a kit actually contains POE oil which blends with mineral oil and become somewhat soluble so the oil returns to compressor.
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