Cantilever front suspension - S-10 Forum
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post #1 of 55 Old 07-06-2005, 07:07 PM Thread Starter
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Cantilever front suspension

Ok I have had this idea in my head for a long time now and I was afraid to give it away by asking questions but if I don't know anything about it then I can't build it.

Basically the idea is to run a shockwave, rockerarm, pushrod, tubular control arms, and some crossmember. The whole setup would be between the radiator and control arms. The shockwaves would be on a crossmember in between the motor and radiator, the rocker arm on the frame, and then the push rod connecting to middle of the control arm. It would be set at a somewhat angle to squeeze it all in there.

The reason I would like to do this would be one it's different, second the insane adjustability of the shockwave, not having to worry about the turning radius since I'm using the shockwaves, and running the cantilever I could compensate for the small stroke of the shockwave.

Anyone know of this working? I have seen like one or two out there but nothing with the shockwave. Also how many inches is it to max out the front suspension? Then I need to figure out my ratio. The pushrod is gonna be in the middle right where a normal air bag would be so what's the normal ratio on the front? I think it's like 1.5:1 right? I was looking at the 4.1 stroke shockwaves so once I figure out the number of inches to max out the front then I could put all the numbers and figure out a final ratio. I was maybe thinking somewhere around a 2:1 maybe more maybe less as a rough estimate. Any input is greatly appreciated.


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post #2 of 55 Old 07-07-2005, 01:08 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Cantilever front suspension



Hmm any thoughts on this?

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post #3 of 55 Old 07-07-2005, 01:20 PM
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Re: Cantilever front suspension

There was an idea on here before where someone had mentioned something close..

I think it was running a hydraulic cylinder in the middle where the bag would go, have the cylinder run to a lever setup, when the bag was inflated more juice was pushed into the cylinder pushing the vehicle up, when the bag was deflated the juice ran away from the cylinder letting the vehicle down...

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post #4 of 55 Old 07-07-2005, 01:23 PM
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Re: Cantilever front suspension

Quote:
Originally Posted by jchargu3
There was an idea on here before where someone had mentioned something close..

I think it was running a hydraulic cylinder in the middle where the bag would go, have the cylinder run to a lever setup, when the bag was inflated more juice was pushed into the cylinder pushing the vehicle up, when the bag was deflated the juice ran away from the cylinder letting the vehicle down...


I had that idea as well.

about yours let me wrap my mind around it and get back to you.

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post #5 of 55 Old 07-07-2005, 01:37 PM
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Re: Cantilever front suspension

i dont think youll be able to fit all that inside there, and remember the bigger the ratio you set the rocker up for, the more pressure you will need and the lower the load capacity becomes. a SKW1000 at 3:1 ratio can only lift 713lbs, two of those wont be enough for the front of your truck.


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post #6 of 55 Old 07-07-2005, 01:45 PM
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Re: Cantilever front suspension

Quote:
Originally Posted by AVTekk
i dont think youll be able to fit all that inside there, and remember the bigger the ratio you set the rocker up for, the more pressure you will need and the lower the load capacity becomes. a SKW1000 at 3:1 ratio can only lift 713lbs, two of those wont be enough for the front of your truck.


Forgot about that part lol.

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post #7 of 55 Old 07-07-2005, 03:07 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Cantilever front suspension

Quote:
Originally Posted by AVTekk
i dont think youll be able to fit all that inside there, and remember the bigger the ratio you set the rocker up for, the more pressure you will need and the lower the load capacity becomes. a SKW1000 at 3:1 ratio can only lift 713lbs, two of those wont be enough for the front of your truck.
Hmm isn't a 3:1 ratio rather high though. I was thinking of something lower around a 2:1. Not sure if that will still pick the front of the truck up but isn't the facyory ratio somewhere like 1.25:1 or 1.5:1?

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post #8 of 55 Old 07-07-2005, 03:29 PM
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Re: Cantilever front suspension

I think the factory is closer to 2:1 I cut a 1/4 inch off a cup and i got like a 1/2 inch of drop
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post #9 of 55 Old 07-07-2005, 03:42 PM
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Re: Cantilever front suspension

yeah the factory ratio is now 2:1 allready. some thing alot simpler would be to mount the bottom of the shockwave to a braced upper control arm and then make some sort of tubular rollbar type mount for hte top part of the bag. The shockwaves would be up and out of the way of the way for turning issues.
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post #10 of 55 Old 07-07-2005, 03:46 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Cantilever front suspension

Quote:
Originally Posted by 98layinframe
yeah the factory ratio is now 2:1 allready. some thing alot simpler would be to mount the bottom of the shockwave to a braced upper control arm and then make some sort of tubular rollbar type mount for hte top part of the bag. The shockwaves would be up and out of the way of the way for turning issues.
How many inches does it take to max out the front suspension? Isn't it like 8''? If so and I get the shockwaves with a stroke of 4.1'' then couldn't I just run a 1:1 rocker arm and put the pushrod on the upper control arm where it would get a factory 2:1 ratio and all would be fine except for trying to squeeze it all in?

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post #11 of 55 Old 07-07-2005, 03:54 PM
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Re: Cantilever front suspension

sounds about right... as long as you run a 1:1 ratio on the rocker like you were saying. Our trucks get about 8" or 9" of travel, but due again to the level setup the bag should really only see a difference of half that movement.

Also your shockwaves would still be able to lift the front of the truck, since your still keeping after all the rocker arms a 2:1 ratio.
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post #12 of 55 Old 07-07-2005, 03:59 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Cantilever front suspension

ok here is another question. If when using shockwaves where they would normally go and in a 2:1 ratio then how come they don't lift like a regular bag? I was looking throught he catelog for ART and my guess is that you have to use the smaller shockwaves that only get like 2 inches of stroke right?

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post #13 of 55 Old 07-07-2005, 04:31 PM
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Re: Cantilever front suspension

shockswaves are kinda goofy.. the main reason they dont as much lift as a bag is due to the shock part itself... the shocks only have limited amount of travelsince they are restricted to such a short shock inorder for them to fit in the frame pocket and still collapse down far enough. Its like asking a short drop shock that you would normally use with a 5" drop to have the travel of a much longer factory shock.. ya know?

thats the main problem with shockwaves when mounted in the frame... you have to use the smaller shock waves with only about 2" of travel when you really need the much larger ones that have the much needed 4" of travel...

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post #14 of 55 Old 07-07-2005, 05:02 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Cantilever front suspension

Quote:
Originally Posted by 98layinframe
shockswaves are kinda goofy.. the main reason they dont as much lift as a bag is due to the shock part itself... the shocks only have limited amount of travelsince they are restricted to such a short shock inorder for them to fit in the frame pocket and still collapse down far enough. Its like asking a short drop shock that you would normally use with a 5" drop to have the travel of a much longer factory shock.. ya know?

thats the main problem with shockwaves when mounted in the frame... you have to use the smaller shock waves with only about 2" of travel when you really need the much larger ones that have the much needed 4" of travel...
Ahh ok. I just wanted to verify that the kits for the s10s use the smaller ones.

So I think they only problem now is being able to squeez everything in there which i think there is enough room but I'm not sure yet. It's just an idea in my head for now.

Thanks for all the answers.

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post #15 of 55 Old 07-07-2005, 11:49 PM
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Re: Cantilever front suspension

When I was at SEMA this year I saw the Godfather customs Hummer that was on a custom frame and bodydropped on 24's. It was sick. I got under it to see how they had set everything up and it had a cantilever set-up up front with the bags actually being near the radiator. It was layed out but i could imagine it would have to get some ridiculous lift to untuck those 24s. I never have seen anything about the truck anywhere.
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post #16 of 55 Old 07-08-2005, 01:02 AM
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Re: Cantilever front suspension

i think you guys think too much, just put some bags in there.
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post #17 of 55 Old 07-08-2005, 04:33 AM
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Re: Cantilever front suspension

haha for real i have no clue what 3:1 or 1:1 is i would love to know but woow you guys are awsome
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post #18 of 55 Old 07-08-2005, 08:51 AM
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Re: Cantilever front suspension

Quote:
Originally Posted by whitedime
i think you guys think too much, just put some bags in there.

yeah ok... what fun would the sport be if noone ever pushed the limits? Since when is thinking up and building a custom one off setup bad?
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post #19 of 55 Old 07-08-2005, 08:57 AM
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Re: Cantilever front suspension

i know... ok do it then. lol
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post #20 of 55 Old 07-08-2005, 09:00 AM
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Re: Cantilever front suspension

Here is my take on things,

if you attach a bar to the end of the A arm at the pivit point. set it up like a torson sp? bar. but make it not flex your are going to need a steel tube setup like a drive shaft. (made fore rotational forces) that can hadle in excess of 1000+ ft. lbs. of torque. run it to the front end. in the front I would not use the shockwave. I would go with a 2600 or 2b7 size bag and mount the shock beside it. you are going to need the load cap. for this. now weld a plate to the bar and mount a frame off the stock frame that can withstand almost 4,000 lbs of stress on it. ( on a 2:1 I belive a 2,000lbs front will now seem 4,000 to the spring) rig it and mount it and you are good to go. my only problem is you are going to have to beef up the stock frame and stock A arms that is a hell of alot of extra force on them.


Last to get more travel then stock you are going to have to go with a aftermarket tube arm or higly modify the stock one. and remove uper limits so it can fully extend down. also new high pivit ball joints are going to be needed , a large rim to clear A arm tavel is also needed and last the stock spindle and trailing arm are going to need modified possable for the new range of motion.

again I may be wrong but it is early and my brain is not working the best lol.

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post #21 of 55 Old 07-08-2005, 12:06 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Cantilever front suspension

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJDAudio
Here is my take on things,

if you attach a bar to the end of the A arm at the pivit point. set it up like a torson sp? bar. but make it not flex your are going to need a steel tube setup like a drive shaft. (made fore rotational forces) that can hadle in excess of 1000+ ft. lbs. of torque. run it to the front end. in the front I would not use the shockwave. I would go with a 2600 or 2b7 size bag and mount the shock beside it. you are going to need the load cap. for this. now weld a plate to the bar and mount a frame off the stock frame that can withstand almost 4,000 lbs of stress on it. ( on a 2:1 I belive a 2,000lbs front will now seem 4,000 to the spring) rig it and mount it and you are good to go. my only problem is you are going to have to beef up the stock frame and stock A arms that is a hell of alot of extra force on them.


Last to get more travel then stock you are going to have to go with a aftermarket tube arm or higly modify the stock one. and remove uper limits so it can fully extend down. also new high pivit ball joints are going to be needed , a large rim to clear A arm tavel is also needed and last the stock spindle and trailing arm are going to need modified possable for the new range of motion.

again I may be wrong but it is early and my brain is not working the best lol.
No it's not gonna be like a torsion bar. It's just gonna be like a regular cantilever you see on the backs of trucks. I was thinking of the whole torsion bar thing but I don't like it.

And I'm not looking for anymore lift than it gets now. I just want something different and to keep the shocks out of the way of the wheel and tire.

And you saying just to run a regular bag and shock why? Can shockwaves not hold that much weight. Cause up to this point I don't see where they difference is of where the shockwave is? Either it's in the spring pocket on a 2:1 ratio or it's through a cantilever at a 2:1 ratio. Maybe I'm missing something but read below.

Also I was thinking today also. On the s10s we have the unequal length control arms so me mounting the push rod on the upper control isn't going to work. I'm gonna have to relay on the lever through the upper control arm and some lever the rocker arm because of the upper being shorter right?

Chris
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post #22 of 55 Old 07-08-2005, 12:08 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Cantilever front suspension

Quote:
Originally Posted by whitedime
i think you guys think too much, just put some bags in there.
That's the problem. People just want to be low and don't care how it rides or how it looks.

I want to do this to have a really nice ride with the shockwave as well as the show quality look. And the be able to run the larger shockwave so I can max out the front suspension. Plus with the shock out of the way I will have more turning radius than just a regular bagged truck. And plus how many cantilever front suspended minis do you at shows?

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post #23 of 55 Old 07-08-2005, 12:09 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Cantilever front suspension

O and I was thinking that with the caster on the s10s that it may put a bind in the cantilever system. Any thoughts on that?

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post #24 of 55 Old 07-08-2005, 12:11 PM
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Re: Cantilever front suspension

this sounds like a lot of work for nothing. if all you want is the shocks out of the way, then build a hoop on top or run your canti just for the shocks and run bags like normal. making a canti with a 1:1 ratio by itself pretty much nulls out half the advantages of a canti, plus doing all this engineering for shock placement just seems silly to me..


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post #25 of 55 Old 07-08-2005, 12:15 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Cantilever front suspension

Quote:
Originally Posted by AVTekk
this sounds like a lot of work for nothing. if all you want is the shocks out of the way, then build a hoop on top or run your canti just for the shocks and run bags like normal. making a canti with a 1:1 ratio by itself pretty much nulls out half the advantages of a canti, plus doing all this engineering for shock placement just seems silly to me..
Yea but I just figured out now that it's not gonna be a 1:1 now cause of the unequal length control arms.

It does sound like alot of work but I just want something a tad differerent and the show quality of the shockwave and the all the adjustablity. It's still just an idea that I'm thinking of.

O can anyone find a pic of a indy car's front suspension? I heard that they have cantilever front suspension but I can't find not one pic showing it.

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post #26 of 55 Old 07-08-2005, 12:27 PM
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Re: Cantilever front suspension

ya they do but theyre a little more advanced heh..




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post #27 of 55 Old 07-08-2005, 03:41 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Cantilever front suspension

Holy shit I can't even keep up as to what all is going on. That is crazy.

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post #28 of 55 Old 07-08-2005, 03:51 PM
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Re: Cantilever front suspension

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCHEVYHEVN3
Plus with the shock out of the way I will have more turning radius than just a regular bagged truck. And plus how many cantilever front suspended minis do you at shows?
If your goal is just to have shocks thats simple to do and have full steering. Every bagged mini I see has a cantilever front suspension LOL. And your not talking about cantilevering any differently then stock because your keeping the stock 2:1 ratio.
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post #29 of 55 Old 07-08-2005, 03:53 PM
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Re: Cantilever front suspension

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCHEVYHEVN3
I want to do this to have a really nice ride with the shockwave
Don't shockwaves have a stiff ride?
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post #30 of 55 Old 07-08-2005, 03:56 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Cantilever front suspension

Quote:
Originally Posted by dropt98chevy
If your goal is just to have shocks thats simple to do and have full steering. Every bagged mini I see has a cantilever front suspension LOL. And your not talking about cantilevering any differently then stock because your keeping the stock 2:1 ratio.
Uh the factory setup is called a lever setup. Just because it keeps the same 2:1 ratio doesn't make it the same. Kinda like on the rear if you have a lever setup for a 2:1 ratio and then a cantilever for 2:1 they both arn't the same.

Mine will be a cantilever/lever setup. It's gonna get some leverage through the rocker arm(canti) and then the rest of the leverage through the control arms. It's kinda gonna be two in one type thing.

I have now figured out that the rocker arm can't be a 1:1 ratio now because of the unequal length control arms.

Also it's not just the shock problem I want the show quality and different design too.

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post #31 of 55 Old 07-08-2005, 03:57 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Cantilever front suspension

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Originally Posted by dropt98chevy
Don't shockwaves have a stiff ride?
Not from what I have read. Maybe if they are maxed out with psi they are really stiff. Other than that it's just a regular bag with a high performance adjustable shock.

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post #32 of 55 Old 07-08-2005, 04:02 PM
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Re: Cantilever front suspension

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Not from what I have read. Maybe if they are maxed out with psi they are really stiff. Other than that it's just a regular bag with a high performance adjustable shock.
The shock runs through the center of the bag correct? Wouldn't that make the bag stiffer to reach the same ride height because the inside volume of the bag would be less?
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post #33 of 55 Old 07-08-2005, 04:05 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Cantilever front suspension

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The shock runs through the center of the bag correct? Wouldn't that make the bag stiffer to reach the same ride height because the inside volume of the bag would be less?
I guess on the smaller ones that only have a stroke of 2 inches. But if it use the bigger ones with a stroke of 4.1 and run it through a 2:1 ratio shouldn't that make it softer? Sorta like the higher the ratio the bag is at the softer the ride.

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post #34 of 55 Old 07-08-2005, 04:07 PM
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Re: Cantilever front suspension

Do you know what size bag they are using? If its a 2600 it would probably ride in between a 2500 and 2600 on a regular set up.
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Re: Cantilever front suspension

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Do you know what size bag they are using? If its a 2600 it would probably ride in between a 2500 and 2600 on a regular set up.
Yea I'm not sure what size bags they are. But they had 3 different sizes so my guess is a 2400, 255c, and 224c bag.

I think you thought they rode stiff cause on the s10s when they run they run the smaller ones with only like 2inches of stroke and have to ride around everywhere with alot of pressure just to turn cause they don't lift as high.

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post #36 of 55 Old 07-08-2005, 04:20 PM
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Re: Cantilever front suspension

yeah the smaller ones have a bag that is slightly smaller then a 2500 sized bag, plus you also lose the volume of the shock inside, so yeah they ride like shit only because you have to ride around 120 Psi in them to gain enought ground clearanse.
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post #37 of 55 Old 07-08-2005, 04:54 PM
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Re: Cantilever front suspension

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I think you thought they rode stiff cause on the s10s when they run they run the smaller ones with only like 2inches of stroke and have to ride around everywhere with alot of pressure just to turn cause they don't lift as high.
Actually I have never ridden in a truck with them its just common sense. Less volume=more pressure=stiffer
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post #38 of 55 Old 07-08-2005, 04:58 PM
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Re: Cantilever front suspension

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Originally Posted by dropt98chevy
Actually I have never ridden in a truck with them its just common sense. Less volume=more pressure=stiffer
I had shock waves for a good year...

THEY SUCK lol Just IMO

anywho they do put a limit on load to these bacaue the whole weight of the truck is on (2) small contact points and a shock is not ment to have 1000+ lbs on it at its ends lol.

also the shockwave is not good at lateral forces. the seals tend to blow in the shock.


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Re: Cantilever front suspension

But if it's still in a 2:1 ratio just as a factory ratio then there is no problem right?

And what do you mean latteral? Like angled or something?

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post #40 of 55 Old 07-08-2005, 05:25 PM
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Re: Cantilever front suspension

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And what do you mean latteral? Like angled or something?
I am assuming he is refering to any side to side movement?
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Re: Cantilever front suspension

Quote:
Originally Posted by dropt98chevy
I am assuming he is refering to any side to side movement?
Bingo.

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Re: Cantilever front suspension

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Bingo.
See I am not as stupid as I look just a hair smarter.
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post #43 of 55 Old 07-08-2005, 06:28 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Cantilever front suspension

Quote:
Originally Posted by dropt98chevy
I am assuming he is refering to any side to side movement?
Well wouldn't a beefy rocker arm keep it from going side to side?

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post #44 of 55 Old 07-08-2005, 06:55 PM
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Re: Cantilever front suspension

Quote:
Originally Posted by dropt98chevy
The shock runs through the center of the bag correct? Wouldn't that make the bag stiffer to reach the same ride height because the inside volume of the bag would be less?
Only the shaft and a very small portion of the body is inside the bag. Not enough volume to worry about.
I have never installed shock waves on a S10 before, but I have used them many times in custom applications, and they have always ridden pretty good. I have a set of shockwaves on the rear of my own truck, and it rides real soft at low pressure levels. And the damping adjustments help to tune the ride. Mine lasted four years before needing the rebuilding. Then it was the top orings started to leak. An easy fix.

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post #45 of 55 Old 07-09-2005, 03:53 AM
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Re: Cantilever front suspension

there is a red fullsize i think or maybe it is a ranger that has this done i canot find the pics of it

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post #46 of 55 Old 07-09-2005, 09:51 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Cantilever front suspension

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there is a red fullsize i think or maybe it is a ranger that has this done i canot find the pics of it
Yea I think I have seen the ranger one. It's inbetween the body and front suspension. And I think there is a red/silver blazer that did it like the torsion bar thing Doug was talking about.

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post #47 of 55 Old 07-09-2005, 10:15 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Cantilever front suspension

Aha. i found the ranger. http://forum.sportruck.com/showpost....sb=5#Post67464

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post #48 of 55 Old 07-10-2005, 03:18 AM
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Re: Cantilever front suspension

here you go ladies

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post #49 of 55 Old 07-10-2005, 11:12 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Cantilever front suspension

Yea thats the other one. I think it's a first gen blazer right?

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post #50 of 55 Old 07-10-2005, 12:07 PM
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Re: Cantilever front suspension



same one?

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