2.8L issues knocking and fuel trim - S-10 Forum
 
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post #1 of 38 Old 01-05-2016, 04:22 AM Thread Starter
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2.8L issues knocking and fuel trim

1986 2.8L has knocking sound when letting out clutch moderatley accellerating.........more so when really cold, is this piston slap or the clutch? not sure how to tell. Once the clutch is fully engaged if I floor it, then absolutely no knocking sound. 1982 flywheel used on the 1986 motor, not sure if thats something there to address.
Fuel trim question is block learn shows 138 so its adding fuel, so I either have a vacuum leak or need to crank up the fuel pressure some more since I have the 4.3L throttle body with manifold holes enlarged. It bogs some times. New 4 wire 02 sensor installed. tps is at .54 to .56 volts. All of this is with the gm tech 1 scanner that I own.


1986 s10 put back together with new bone yard frame, cab, shitcanned 700r4.............5 speed put back in, msd box and coil, custom k and n filter, flowing exaust, 4.3L throttle bodyw/2.8L injectors, bored intake, e-fan,AFPR
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post #2 of 38 Old 01-06-2016, 07:57 AM
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Re: 2.8L issues knocking and fuel trim

Your BLM value could be because you have a larger throttle body. 138 is not that high about the ideal of 128. In that cell where the 138 is being reported, you need to know what the INT is doing.

Are there any codes stored?

I'd recommend looking into using a laptop to see more at once than the scanner.

I have an Auto Xray scanner that I used when I'm wanting to watch knock counts or other cumulative values. I use a laptop for logging constantly changing values.

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post #3 of 38 Old 01-07-2016, 01:43 AM Thread Starter
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Re: 2.8L issues knocking and fuel trim

no codes. int was 128 I have a laptop but will have to see if I can get one to work again. I had windows aldl reading it but that was years ago. not sure windows aldl will work with a usb port. Warm the motor up for 2 minutes and the knocking almost dissappears in 24 degree weather so Im wondering if its the clutch plate or flywheel issue, maybe throwout bearing. 90 weight is in the 5 speed.

1986 s10 put back together with new bone yard frame, cab, shitcanned 700r4.............5 speed put back in, msd box and coil, custom k and n filter, flowing exaust, 4.3L throttle bodyw/2.8L injectors, bored intake, e-fan,AFPR
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post #4 of 38 Old 01-07-2016, 02:37 AM
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Re: 2.8L issues knocking and fuel trim

I think you have the wrong oil in the transmission - when I redid the clutch in my 84 s10 with 5spd trans according to the dealership here I had three choices in this order 5w30 sycromesh, 5w30 engine oil or auto trans fluid - I did the cheapest in cost at the time - mine has run on auto trans fluid for over ten years now - according to the owners manual specs on my old 83 chevy diesel 3/4 ton 4spd is 5w30 engine oil I double checked with the dealership on her too and they agreed so that's what I put in it years ago when I did fluids in it and have ever since and she has over 200 tho on the clock
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post #5 of 38 Old 01-07-2016, 02:53 AM Thread Starter
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Re: 2.8L issues knocking and fuel trim

it does run tons better after replacing the 02 sensor with a 4 wire one and.......my y pipe was cracked in a couple of places I didnt know so I replaced that pipe too. Now at light throttle its still slightly jerky twitchey and not smooth. the old y pipe had the 02 up on the left bank and the new y pipe has the 02 after the y so it reads left and right bank exhaust......whats what prompted me to get the 4 wire because it would always go into open loop mode at idle and part throttle. with the 1 wire brand new bosch sensor the millivolts wouldnt go very low or hi even in closed loop. things to try.......adding gaskets to raise injector pod so spray hits just above throttle body flaps, get rid of taylor 8mm spark plug wires, basically go back to stock ignition. I had the msd 6al box, msd coil, ngk iridium plugs, in......removed all that ......ran better. I had this idea that the hotter kick ass bullet proof the ignition was the better it would run......nope ran worse. NOt sure if I should adjust tps down a bit. as far as the knocking I took it to a trans shop but the guy wasnt there just his helper and he also thought by what I described would be the clutch plate.....so we will see on that one clutch isnt worn out or old

1986 s10 put back together with new bone yard frame, cab, shitcanned 700r4.............5 speed put back in, msd box and coil, custom k and n filter, flowing exaust, 4.3L throttle bodyw/2.8L injectors, bored intake, e-fan,AFPR
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post #6 of 38 Old 01-07-2016, 02:55 AM Thread Starter
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Re: 2.8L issues knocking and fuel trim

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I think you have the wrong oil in the transmission - when I redid the clutch in my 84 s10 with 5spd trans according to the dealership here I had three choices in this order 5w30 sycromesh, 5w30 engine oil or auto trans fluid - I did the cheapest in cost at the time - mine has run on auto trans fluid for over ten years now - according to the owners manual specs on my old 83 chevy diesel 3/4 ton 4spd is 5w30 engine oil I double checked with the dealership on her too and they agreed so that's what I put in it years ago when I did fluids in it and have ever since and she has over 200 tho on the clock
I hear ya and see that everywhere recommends syncromesh or auto trans fluid. I might try some syncromesh. still blows my mind to have thin ass oil in there

1986 s10 put back together with new bone yard frame, cab, shitcanned 700r4.............5 speed put back in, msd box and coil, custom k and n filter, flowing exaust, 4.3L throttle bodyw/2.8L injectors, bored intake, e-fan,AFPR
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post #7 of 38 Old 01-07-2016, 03:22 AM
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Re: 2.8L issues knocking and fuel trim

Might be the Ignition Module starting to go south which not only will cause weak/weakening spark but the ECM's reference for controlling injector pulse width comes out of it

Put the NGK Iridiums back in - those and the NipponDENSOs are the best made plugs in the world...LASER Iridium...even better
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Re: 2.8L issues knocking and fuel trim

the knocking might either be a worn crank thrust bearing or the trans input shaft
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post #9 of 38 Old 01-07-2016, 03:49 AM Thread Starter
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Re: 2.8L issues knocking and fuel trim

what I should do is make a youtube video of it. Hmmm crank thrust bearing. that would mean I should be able to pry the crank forward and rearward and see it move.....end play. Worn trans input shaft? You mean the input shaft bearing? or are you talking about the shaft splines? I was also thinking maybe the input shaft tip that goes into the pilot bearing or bushing. I dont even know if I installed a pilot bushing lol when I switched to the t5 I had laying around. If I look up pilot bushing on advance autos site they list bearings and bushings. For 1982 they dont even list a flywheel!

1986 s10 put back together with new bone yard frame, cab, shitcanned 700r4.............5 speed put back in, msd box and coil, custom k and n filter, flowing exaust, 4.3L throttle bodyw/2.8L injectors, bored intake, e-fan,AFPR
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post #10 of 38 Old 01-07-2016, 03:51 AM Thread Starter
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Re: 2.8L issues knocking and fuel trim

if I had to replace the ignition module, I wouldnt know how to check for a going south one or what brand to replace it with

1986 s10 put back together with new bone yard frame, cab, shitcanned 700r4.............5 speed put back in, msd box and coil, custom k and n filter, flowing exaust, 4.3L throttle bodyw/2.8L injectors, bored intake, e-fan,AFPR
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post #11 of 38 Old 01-07-2016, 08:40 AM
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Re: 2.8L issues knocking and fuel trim

I see in your sig that you have an MSD box?
I have a 79 LUV with a Buick 3.8 V6 in it. I bought it that way, and it also had an MSD box. I got the truck for little $$ since the PO could not get it to run properly...
Guess?
Yep, MSD box was funky. I eliminated the box and installed an HEI dizzy unit and then? The truck ran super.
I'm not sating your box is bad, but try taking it out of the equation first.

Did the engine you installed come out of an automatic rig? If so, it did not have a pilot bushing/bearing in the crank.
If you did not install one, the input shaft can float around when the clutch pedal is depressed. This will lead to premature transmission failure and could possibly cause noises.

BTW, the flywheel/clutch assemblies are the same from 82 to 87. In 88 they changed the balance on these engines which means the flywheels are different.

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1)'82 S10, 383, 700R4, Shorty
2) '85 S10, 3.4, 700R4 4x4 stretch cab (Redneck)
3) '90 S10 2.5, 5 speed shorty
4) '91 S10, Built 3.4, 5 speed shorty (Voodoo)
5) '92 S10, 2.5, 5 speed shorty, (Barbie)
6) '92 S10, 2.5 5 speed, Shorty
7) 1979 LUV, Buick 3.8 V6, TH 350 Shorty.
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post #12 of 38 Old 01-07-2016, 11:32 AM Thread Starter
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Re: 2.8L issues knocking and fuel trim

yes I did take out the msd box ran much beter. later I took off the msd coil. next is installing the ac delco plug wires. Depressing the clutch doesnt make noise, only when I am engaging the clutch moderately does it make the noise, normal driving it doesnt do it. when cold like below 30 it will definetly do it real easy, but if I wait a minute or two then I can take off normally and it wont do it. The warmer the engine/trans gets the less it does it.
The engine I installed came out of the 86 truck which was an automatic for a while, I had the 5 speed laying around from the 82 I had along with flywheel. I cant imagine I would leave out the pilot bearing but just guessing as to what I could have done wrong. This engine has roughly 50,000 miles on it.

1986 s10 put back together with new bone yard frame, cab, shitcanned 700r4.............5 speed put back in, msd box and coil, custom k and n filter, flowing exaust, 4.3L throttle bodyw/2.8L injectors, bored intake, e-fan,AFPR

Last edited by fumplet; 01-07-2016 at 11:37 AM. Reason: a.d.d.
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post #13 of 38 Old 01-07-2016, 11:43 AM Thread Starter
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Re: 2.8L issues knocking and fuel trim

I dont remember what the timimg is set too but I might have set it to 12 instead of 10. that might do it. havnt checked yet, nor do I remember where the timing wire is your supposed to either disconnect or ground to test or check timing.

1986 s10 put back together with new bone yard frame, cab, shitcanned 700r4.............5 speed put back in, msd box and coil, custom k and n filter, flowing exaust, 4.3L throttle bodyw/2.8L injectors, bored intake, e-fan,AFPR
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post #14 of 38 Old 01-07-2016, 11:49 AM Thread Starter
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Re: 2.8L issues knocking and fuel trim

if this is indeed the engine doing the knocking wouldnt I be able to see the knock counts hop up drastically???

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post #15 of 38 Old 01-07-2016, 10:13 PM
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Re: 2.8L issues knocking and fuel trim

those older systems are not that sophisticated honestly and "knock" counts can come from certain engine noises that emit certain frequencies.

Hopefully you're grounding whatever terminal or unplugging whatever EST connector you need to to set Base Timing. With 10% ethanol in fuel and EGR you should be able to run at LEAST factory base timing if not more for more bottom end

I've also seen loose pressure plate or flywheel bolts cause that kind of noise as well as excessive throw out bearing wear on the pressure plate fingers because freeplay was misadjusted for a long long time

video does nothing for noises - you'll need to get a competent stethescope and have someone engage and disengage the clutch with the truck up on stands and narrow down the area

If it stops doing it up off the ground with a lack of LOAD then it was/is spark knock and could be timing related but most likely excessive carbon on top of the pistons and/or EGR not working/working properly
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post #16 of 38 Old 01-07-2016, 10:15 PM
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Re: 2.8L issues knocking and fuel trim

If you have a TECH or a TECH II and you can get live spark timing data I would pay attention to that on the display when it does it
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Re: 2.8L issues knocking and fuel trim

yes it will not do it on jackstands. Trying to even move the truck when first started in 30 or less degrees outside it will do it, warm it up 2 minutes goes away, or unless you take off more spirited or hard.

1986 s10 put back together with new bone yard frame, cab, shitcanned 700r4.............5 speed put back in, msd box and coil, custom k and n filter, flowing exaust, 4.3L throttle bodyw/2.8L injectors, bored intake, e-fan,AFPR
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post #18 of 38 Old 01-08-2016, 02:07 AM Thread Starter
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Re: 2.8L issues knocking and fuel trim

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Originally Posted by sparkybuoy View Post
If you have a TECH or a TECH II and you can get live spark timing data I would pay attention to that on the display when it does it
thats what I was thinking of trying next. we will see tomorrow when I get up at 2 pm. Working till 1 am kinda sucks but oh well

1986 s10 put back together with new bone yard frame, cab, shitcanned 700r4.............5 speed put back in, msd box and coil, custom k and n filter, flowing exaust, 4.3L throttle bodyw/2.8L injectors, bored intake, e-fan,AFPR
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post #19 of 38 Old 01-08-2016, 02:09 AM
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Re: 2.8L issues knocking and fuel trim

take a look and see...I bet you still have the original module and stator (pickup)

http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Ca...7SB_0167705861

http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Ca...121_0182971511
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post #20 of 38 Old 01-08-2016, 02:46 AM Thread Starter
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Re: 2.8L issues knocking and fuel trim

I remember changing the whole dizzy crap inside. pickup coil, module, all of it.......but that was also 12 years ago

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post #21 of 38 Old 01-09-2016, 09:49 PM Thread Starter
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Re: 2.8L issues knocking and fuel trim

hooked up tech 1 yesterday and knock signal at idle was no, rev it up, knock signal goes to yes. still have to hook up my laptop.

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post #22 of 38 Old 01-10-2016, 03:50 AM Thread Starter
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Re: 2.8L issues knocking and fuel trim

ok found my older than dirt 550mhz dell laptop that still has a sereal port. Couldnt get WINALDL to work using the usb to sereal converter so I will just have to stick with the slower than crap dell that WINALDL WORKS. Have no idea what to look for for knock signal ect. Is winaldl good enough or is there a better more modern program that will work with windows 7 instead of xp thats more accurate(works on a faster laptop!)

1986 s10 put back together with new bone yard frame, cab, shitcanned 700r4.............5 speed put back in, msd box and coil, custom k and n filter, flowing exaust, 4.3L throttle bodyw/2.8L injectors, bored intake, e-fan,AFPR
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post #23 of 38 Old 01-10-2016, 04:46 AM
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Re: 2.8L issues knocking and fuel trim

WinAlDl is just fine for looking at knocks.

When you have the program open, and to the tab for knocks, as knocks occur, those counts will populate the cells that they occur in.

The other nice thing about WinAldl and the knock counts, as they occur, they are cumulative respective of the cells as they occur.

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Re: 2.8L issues knocking and fuel trim

zero experience with knocks. should there be little to no knocks, some knocks, a certain range?

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post #25 of 38 Old 01-10-2016, 09:03 PM
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Re: 2.8L issues knocking and fuel trim

Your question is one that would certainly be better answered on www.gearhead-efi.com

1985 GMC S-15 Gypsy ext cab.
3.4l, Edelbrock intake, a 4.3l throttle body controlled by an '88 TBI ECM. 700R4 with 3.73 rear. Real time tuning using a CF-30 Toughbook with a Moates Ostrich 2 emulator.
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post #26 of 38 Old 01-11-2016, 10:02 PM
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Re: 2.8L issues knocking and fuel trim

it's one thing to be seeing "knocks" but actually hearing knocking is what actually is important
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post #27 of 38 Old 01-11-2016, 10:03 PM
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Re: 2.8L issues knocking and fuel trim

one doesn't need "data" to hear, diagnose and repair knocking/pinging

the whole point of having a knock sensor is to have the ECM back off ignition spark timing when it actually is pinging/knocking...not to help diagnose it for someone - Knock sensor data won't tell you WHY it's knocking/pinging so paying attention to it won't yield any results except telling you what you can already hear

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post #28 of 38 Old 01-13-2016, 04:00 AM
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Re: 2.8L issues knocking and fuel trim

Sometimes other data helps.

And some of us can't hear so well.

And some of us aren't masters.

1985 GMC S-15 Gypsy ext cab.
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post #29 of 38 Old 01-13-2016, 07:35 PM
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Re: 2.8L issues knocking and fuel trim

aaa
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post #30 of 38 Old 01-13-2016, 07:40 PM
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Re: 2.8L issues knocking and fuel trim

Pinging/knocking results from:

Spark arriving to the combustion process at the wrong time
Excessive combustion chamber temperature (usually lack of EGR or excessively lean mixture)
Carbon Buildup
Poor quality of fuel
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post #31 of 38 Old 01-13-2016, 08:05 PM
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Re: 2.8L issues knocking and fuel trim

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparkybuoy View Post
aaa
Here's what you orignally wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparkbuoy
*ummm....we weren't talking about "other" data and ummm it's obvious that he can hear fine ummm cuz he ummm hears it
*
Just trying to help the fellow out without being a dick about it.

Yeah, he stated he could hear it, but obviously couldn't tell where it was coming from.

Hell, you even recommended him scanning it and viewing the data, then came back and stated that data wasn't necessary, and, then stated:

Quote:
the knocking might either be a worn crank thrust bearing or the trans input shaft


I'm just trying to help the guy where I can and not be a f'n dick about it.

1985 GMC S-15 Gypsy ext cab.
3.4l, Edelbrock intake, a 4.3l throttle body controlled by an '88 TBI ECM. 700R4 with 3.73 rear. Real time tuning using a CF-30 Toughbook with a Moates Ostrich 2 emulator.
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post #32 of 38 Old 01-13-2016, 10:22 PM
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Re: 2.8L issues knocking and fuel trim

are you gonna be okay? You need some therapy?

Thanks for the RECAP and the only one I see being a dick is YOU

BTW genius...I told him to look at something OTHER than KNOCK data before - what you think you found is not a conflict - good job
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post #33 of 38 Old 01-13-2016, 10:27 PM
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Lolol. ...funny. .... I guess you aren't only a know it all mechanic, but you are a certified psychologist too?

Wow.

No, I'll be fine, but thank you for caring. ....Asshole.
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post #34 of 38 Old 01-13-2016, 10:31 PM
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Re: 2.8L issues knocking and fuel trim

Hey...thanks for trying to HELP him by trying to pawn him off on another website

better a know it all then the complete jealous opposite
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post #35 of 38 Old 01-13-2016, 10:41 PM
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Lolol. ...let me guess, you've never been to that site?

Regardless of whether you have our haven't, it doesn't change the fact that this forum isn't the only forum on the net. It does happen to be one of the few specific regarding the s10/s15's.

Now there are plenty of forums out there regarding gm efi systems that are way better in regards to knowledge base due to membership, but you can choose to be ignorant of that fact if you want.

I don't hold all the answers, so pointing out other sites with more people that do seems to make more sense.

Obviously, I'm the jealous one. ....lol

I'm done trying to help people here now because of dick heads like you. Congrats, you win, now go **** yourself.
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post #36 of 38 Old 01-15-2016, 02:12 AM
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Re: 2.8L issues knocking and fuel trim

I don't NEED a website like you do...I KNOW how to DIAGNOSE & REPAIR

BTW genius...they consider dick just as profane on this site as your word that's under the asterisks
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post #37 of 38 Old 01-15-2016, 03:17 AM
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Yay....good for you.
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post #38 of 38 Old 02-02-2016, 03:37 PM Thread Starter
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Re: 2.8L issues knocking and fuel trim

went to go pick up a long bed for it, ran good, 4th gear has some chatter 5th gear doesnt......weird. STill havnt worked on knock sound as Ive been putting rust free doors on it instead of rocking the 3/4 doors that were on it. The 4/4th of the doors went back to earth due to road salt. So I do need a trans for it or this one rebuilt. Bought a used one for 30 bucks but it has the electronic speedo, and a huge groove 1/2 inch wide worn into the input shaft. Guessing total junk there..

1986 s10 put back together with new bone yard frame, cab, shitcanned 700r4.............5 speed put back in, msd box and coil, custom k and n filter, flowing exaust, 4.3L throttle bodyw/2.8L injectors, bored intake, e-fan,AFPR
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