Current performance options - S-10 Forum
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post #1 of 47 Old 06-17-2019, 07:38 PM Thread Starter
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Current performance options

I have a 2000 Sonoma sls with 2.2/5speed that currently drove from Arizona to Pennsylvania with a cylinder 1 misfire. Even with my Harley soft tail in the bed I got mid 20's mpg. Dealer says I have 0 compression on #1 cylinder and single digit compression on #3. Idle you can feel the miss and smell raw gas. The truck has 99k miles. At 69k the bottom end was re-ringed and new bearings. At 89k the previous owner blew a hose and head gasket went. I bought truck from shop that did the work. 4k miles later it needed a new head gasket AGAIN. I'm done trying to repair this engine and the crappy work by that shop. I bought a used 2.2 with 99k miles that runs great. On to my question:

I can run the bad engine for a while so I want to build the new 2.2 from oil pan to intake. End goal is 15psi of boost. I've looked at the stickies and most of the links are bad or the companies no longer offer performance parts for the 2.2.

I found ccw which offer a lot of stuff for the 2.2 and there is also Ebay. So far the plan is a complete bottom end kit and the head ccw offers with 2mm over size valves and 7500 rpm springs with titanium retainers. The head is suppose to flow 200 cfm with those valves. I've been looking at their sheet metal intake and 65mm throttle body. I want a cam grind that is optimized for use with turbos so maybe their turbo cam and cam gear. I have megasquirt in my other turbo car I built but I would rather not pull it to use on the Sonoma if I can get the factory computer retuned for turbo use.

Are there any other performance shops that offer turbo manifolds for our 2.2? I dont want to buy an Ebay manifold and have to reweld or add a ton of braces to keep them from cracking.

Is the stroker kit from ccw worth it if I'm attempting to push the little 2.2 for every hp and tq I can squeeze out of it? The cost isnt an issue if I can see noticable gains vs a non stroker

I'm sure I will have more questions as I continue with my research. First time building a 4 cylinder Chevy but not new to turbos or building power with 4 cylinders. Most of my experience is from Ford and dodge.

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post #2 of 47 Old 06-17-2019, 07:56 PM
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Re: Current performance options

I would run megasquirt if I were you. The stock MAP sensor doesn't read positive manifold pressure and even if you put one in that does the computer will never do anything with the values.



I wouldn't bother with the stroker kit unless you are looking to throw lots of money at it. The 2.2L has already been stroked twice since introduction. 1.8L then 2.0L


jbody.org also has good info on performance for the LN2 but it's a ghost town nowadays...


Is yours a VIN 4 or 5? The VIN 5 engines have a much more robust fuel system (for E85).




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post #3 of 47 Old 06-17-2019, 08:14 PM Thread Starter
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Mine is a 4. Non flex fuel. I guess I can put the ms 2 in the Sonoma and buy an ms3 for the turbo Neon. I have a lot of mods to the ms2 to allow me to run 4 high impedance injectors and 4 low impedance injectors. I did that to allow the 550cc injectors to run on the street and add 4 more injectors over 1000cc to run 100 octane race gas and a track tune. Still have yet to add the 2nd fuel system. Gave the car to my son for his 18th birthday. Maybe one day it will see sub 10's in the 1/4.
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post #4 of 47 Old 06-18-2019, 01:13 AM
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Re: Current performance options

Have you seen this?



https://www.siepower.com/product-pag...ge-1-turbo-kit


Most of the DTS2 stuff is now sold through CCW, I can't think of much else that is still around.


http://www.ennotechdesigns.com/performance-pulleys.html


^ A few years ago this guy told me he could make me an aluminum crankshaft pulley that integrated the pulley hub and pulley like the Quad4 does, but the cost was too much for me at the time. Eventually I hope to build a motor for my truck and I'll look back into it then.




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post #5 of 47 Old 06-18-2019, 07:44 AM Thread Starter
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That kit would be a good starting point. Maybe I will give them a call to get the details on the turbo. T3/t4 doesn't tell me anything. I also wish they had a picture of it installed on an s10 so I could get a better idea of how clean the install should look.

I know I said 15psi of boost but really I'm looking for 350-400 hp I think that would be more than enough to accomplish my goal of having a fast yet street friendly Sonoma
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post #6 of 47 Old 06-18-2019, 07:15 PM
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Re: Current performance options

There's a bunch of pictures in that link, at least I see them. That kit keeps the AC and power steering too. Getting rid of those allows you to mount the turbo further back so you don't have the weight in front of the wheels.



Get ready to empty your wallet...




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post #7 of 47 Old 06-19-2019, 11:03 AM
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Re: Current performance options

Good luck, let us know how much you spend at the end of it all.
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post #8 of 47 Old 06-19-2019, 12:13 PM
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Re: Current performance options

do you guys think the under drive pulley would actually be worth buying on stock motor? or that oversize throttle body?


I did an oversized throttle body a jeep 4.0 and it made a heck of difference but I don't know about these little 2.2 motors. I don't know if having a throttle body that large would make the throttle really touchy or anything.

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post #9 of 47 Old 06-19-2019, 02:24 PM
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Re: Current performance options

Under drive pulley just gives you back 3-5hp by turning the accessories a bit slower. On small hp engines, this can be noticeable, less so on larger hp engines.
Going to electric fans would be worth about as much or more.
The larger TB won't change power levels on a stock motor, engines are just air pumps, without improvements to heads/exhaust/valve size/cam duration, they won't move more air simply because they have a larger TB.
TB tip in can change a bit though, but if it gets a bit touchy, they can be retuned to accommodate the change in effective TB area.

Under drive pulley generally good. E fans generally good. After that you start to need actual engine upgrades to realize the gain of any other items.
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post #10 of 47 Old 06-19-2019, 04:21 PM Thread Starter
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I will let everyone know what it runs to do my truck but it's going to take 6 months or more. My spending on the truck is split between performance parts and a few cosmetic changes.

Already installed half the 4/6 drop. I did the front and rear springs along with 4 shocks. C- notch came 2 days before I left. I'm going to custom fab the carrier bearing crossover to raise it up an inch and eliminate the ears that hang below the frame before I install the drop spindles and rear blocks. I also got the tailgate handle relocate kit yesterday.

I will be home in a week so I hope to have 3 or 4 days off before I leave again. I literally have 4-6 days home each month so it's a slow build
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post #11 of 47 Old 06-19-2019, 04:24 PM Thread Starter
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I guess I could buy all the bolt-ons and install on the current engine but since its running on 3 cylinders my results would not be typical of other people's results
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post #12 of 47 Old 06-19-2019, 05:17 PM
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Re: Current performance options

@Shane Cary
Please post pictures of your carrier bearing crossover. Interested in doing the same.
Thanks

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post #13 of 47 Old 06-19-2019, 06:57 PM
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Re: Current performance options

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do you guys think the under drive pulley would actually be worth buying on stock motor? or that oversize throttle body?


I did an oversized throttle body a jeep 4.0 and it made a heck of difference but I don't know about these little 2.2 motors. I don't know if having a throttle body that large would make the throttle really touchy or anything.

Just get a Quad4 throttle body from the junkyard. Cheap and makes at difference mostly in throttle response, since you're getting more are in for a given throttle position. It also helps if you're wringing it out to 6k+ but I don't think most people drive like that all of the time.


Another way to get a 2.2L going is by adding lightness.
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post #14 of 47 Old 06-20-2019, 08:46 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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@Shane Cary
Please post pictures of your carrier bearing crossover. Interested in doing the same.
Thanks
I've only glanced at it while fixing an exhaust leak. First impression was to remove existing crossover. Weld in plates to box that section of frame. Then use appropriate tubing welded 1" above stock location and remount carrier bearing. I should be home next Wednesday and be home until Saturday or Sunday. I need to remove bed to weld in c-notch and cover frame in por15. Time permitting I will work on carrier crossover and tailgate handle relocate kit
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post #15 of 47 Old 06-20-2019, 08:56 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manbearpig View Post
Another way to get a 2.2L going is by adding lightness.
I'm researching this as well. I'm 5'6" and 150 pounds so it's not like I can safely lose anymore weight. So next best thing is dropping weight off the truck. Street driven truck so it needs to be safe
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post #16 of 47 Old 06-20-2019, 09:27 AM Thread Starter
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Found this company in a Google search:


WWW.artfiberglass.com

Can get the entire body in fiberglass. Too bad the front clip is s10. I want to keep my Sonoma front
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post #17 of 47 Old 06-20-2019, 09:28 AM Thread Starter
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Link doesn't work. Just Google them
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post #18 of 47 Old 06-20-2019, 09:33 AM
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Re: Current performance options

Underdrive pulley is a good way to recoup a bit of power.

The efan conversion doesn't give as much as most people think. If the fan clutch (standard duty on the tutus) is working properly, the fan is only turning 60%-70% of shaft speed when "fully engaged" and around 25% or less of shaft speed when disengaged. If you're moving over 30 mph, the fan is basically freewheeling and not using any hp at all. The only time it's going to be an issue is after sitting at a traffic light, heat soaking in hot weather. Then, for the first 5 to 10 seconds, it'll be pulling a few hp, and after you start moving, it disengages. BTW, with an underdrive pulley, the hp "used" by the fan is even less because of the underdrive.

I don't remember the size of the stock throttle body on the tutus. Some minor scratching on an index card here shows that for a 2.2L (135 cubic inch) engine, with a red line of 6500 RPMs, you'd need a 1.75" (45mm) throttle body. Up to a 50mm/2" would probably not really hurt drivability, but won't gain much performance either. Above that, unless you're going to spin the thing way over 6,500 RPMs, you don't need any more, and tip in issues will make a larger throttle body much less "street friendly" and "drivable" in day to day traffic. A 2 inch/50mm throttle body should flow enough for 8,000 RPMs on a tutu (achievable, but parts selection gets tricky), and a 65mm throttle body will flow up to 12,000 RPMs on a tutu (probably entirely theoretical), maybe even higher than that. That big might be useful in a boosted situation, but on any normally aspirated engine, I'd avoid that.

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post #19 of 47 Old 06-20-2019, 11:28 AM
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Re: Current performance options

Well, on a 2.2L ditching the E-fan allows you to get rid of that pulley and bracket. I never actually weighed anything but here's a pic of what's left on the front of my engine. On the stock springs the front actually raised up a little.






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post #20 of 47 Old 06-20-2019, 11:57 AM
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Re: Current performance options

Also, it's been a while since I last read about this, but you'll want to rethink your PCV system. The stock system doesn't use a valve and I'm pretty sure some funky things start happening when you start pressurizing the intake manifold.


These engines were never meant for performance, so it's more of a challenge to get them to perform. Some people find it rewarding though. GM had the Quad4 and the Turbo Opel 4-cylinder, so the lowly 2.0/2.2L kind of got left in the dust.




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post #21 of 47 Old 06-20-2019, 12:11 PM
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Re: Current performance options

I know that quad four was pretty fun the grand ams. my brother and a buddy in the army had them.


the front of my 2.2 has some kind of plate that goes across it. is that pic of yours, manbearpig, what mine would like without that thing on the front? I just learned what mine looked like putting the water pump on yesterday so I was really surprised to see that weird plate that seems like its the mount for all the accessories

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post #22 of 47 Old 06-20-2019, 03:57 PM
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Re: Current performance options

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the front of my 2.2 has some kind of plate that goes across it. is that pic of yours, manbearpig, what mine would like without that thing on the front? I just learned what mine looked like putting the water pump on yesterday so I was really surprised to see that weird plate that seems like its the mount for all the accessories

This is what's left of mine:






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post #23 of 47 Old 06-20-2019, 04:34 PM
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So it can be removed and everything mounted in a normal way? It probably cools the engine taking that wall off the front of it and allowing air to flow better

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Re: Current performance options

Well, I don't have AC, power steering, or a clutch fan. I cut it down to hold just the alternator and added an idler pulley above the water pump.
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post #25 of 47 Old 06-20-2019, 05:56 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Also, it's been a while since I last read about this, but you'll want to rethink your PCV system. The stock system doesn't use a valve and I'm pretty sure some funky things start happening when you start pressurizing the intake manifold.


These engines were never meant for performance, so it's more of a challenge to get them to perform. Some people find it rewarding though. GM had the Quad4 and the Turbo Opel 4-cylinder, so the lowly 2.0/2.2L kind of got left in the dust.
The 1st time the head gasket was done I had them install the revised valve cover mentioned in the oil consumption tsb. Cost me $100 for it from dealer.

Since you mentioned the PC valve I wonder what other bossted 2.2 are doing about it? I'm going with the sheet metal intake and 65mm tb once the turbo kit is sorted out.

I have a brand new fan clutch on my truck. Would hate to scrap it for efans when there is little power to be reclaimed. I do like the space being open between front of engine and radiator. That may allow for a bigger radiator or just more room to work on the front of engine
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post #26 of 47 Old 06-20-2019, 06:09 PM Thread Starter
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If you ditched your power steering pump what did you do about the gear box? Is there a manual gear box for the s10?
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post #27 of 47 Old 06-20-2019, 06:23 PM
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Re: Current performance options

I had a manual gearbox for a few years, recently switched over to rack & pinion.



Manual gearbox won't work if you want to keep your airbags, unless there's a clock spring out there that will deal with the extra turns in the steering wheel.


Not sure where you'd put the turbo if you kept the clutch fan and power steering. You'll probably have to chuck the AC if your truck came with it.




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post #28 of 47 Old 06-20-2019, 06:52 PM Thread Starter
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I may look into the rack and pinion swap. My power steering pump is leaking anyway and every once in a while my steering feel changes even though I keep the fluid level correct.

The turbo kits mount on drivers side I thought? My ac sits top of passenger side. I was hoping ac could stay. I live in Pennsylvania now and humidity doesn't bother me much but I'm from Arizona and use to a dry heat so I want the ac if possible. I may have to test fit the turbo setup and see if I can make it work with ac
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Re: Current performance options

The stage 1 kit in the link I posted above keeps the AC but the turbo sits directly in front of the engine.






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post #30 of 47 Old 06-20-2019, 07:10 PM Thread Starter
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Wow. I must have missed that picture. All I saw was pics of it in a car I thought. Maybe I need to go back and look. I also cant believe I thought my ac compressor was passenger mount. Lack of sleep or old age is getting to me.

Looks like efans are a must for me
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post #31 of 47 Old 06-20-2019, 07:17 PM
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Re: Current performance options

I don't think the sheet metal intake manifold has the PCV passages in it, so you'll definitely need something in its place. The only thing I've seen is this, not sure exactly how it works though:






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post #32 of 47 Old 06-20-2019, 08:45 PM Thread Starter
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Is that the revised valve cover from GM? From what I have seen on mine I cant tell. All I know of what the TSB said and what the parts guy told me.

On my other turbo car I had to run a vacuum line from valve cover to catch can and then to a fitting on the short ram so the turbo would draw the air through it.
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post #33 of 47 Old 06-20-2019, 08:50 PM
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Re: Current performance options

I don't know for sure but I think he removed the baffling from the underside, welded those two bungs in, and I'm not sure after that. That one also has a valve cover spacer because he was running 1.7:1 rocker arms.


I doubt the revised valve cover will matter once the turbo is added. You'll most likely have to weld up the little hole in the side of the head under the intake manifold and redesign the PCV system. Might be able to run something similar to 94-97 trucks, the "old fashioned" style.




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post #34 of 47 Old 06-21-2019, 08:47 AM Thread Starter
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You mean like the ones found in valve cover of sbc?
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post #35 of 47 Old 06-21-2019, 09:04 AM Thread Starter
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I was doing a search for manual rack and pinion swaps and came across an article with a link to s&w racecraft. I missed their r&p swap kit somehow. 650 for a manual r&p swap that saves 35 pounds seems like a good price. Saves weight, provides a cleaner look and from what I read it also provides better steering geometry on lowered vehicles.

I plan to run 18x9.5 rims in the rear. I've been looking at their rear frame kit that allows a 31x18.5 rear tire. Not that I will need a big tire for my power goal. Just got so focused on the frame kit I missed everything else
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post #36 of 47 Old 06-21-2019, 06:49 PM
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Re: Current performance options

Quote:
You mean like the ones found in valve cover of sbc?

Maybe? You've got a breather tube going to the airbox with a filter, and a PCV valve and hose going to the intake manifold.



Quote:
I was doing a search for manual rack and pinion swaps

I paid a little more for the Unisteer kit. It's completely bolt-in, I had the whole thing installed in a couple of hours, taking my time. Came with a new steering shaft that bolts to the existing column.



That's a big tire. I've got 17x9.5 in the rear with 275/40r17 tires and I'm lowered 6.5 or so inches in the rear. The tire is a couple inches away from the frame and probably less than an inch from the bedside.




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post #37 of 47 Old 06-21-2019, 07:56 PM Thread Starter
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I'm going to install the rest of the 4/6 drop once I get home. C-notch showed up just before I left home. I was looking at 285/35/18 for the rear. I'm considering the ridler 695 in black for wheels.


For the PCV I will modify the valve cover like in the pic you posted. I can plumb a catch can inline and run the hose to the intake tube between filter and turbo. Turbo will create vacuum on the pcv. It worked on my neon when I turbo it.

The only part I dont care for on the s&w rack is the welding for the mount. Do you happen to have a picture of it installed? I would be interested in seeing how their bolt in kit looks installed
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post #38 of 47 Old 06-21-2019, 07:57 PM Thread Starter
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To clarify: do you have a pic of the kit you got bolted in. I realize you have a different setup than the s&w. Was curious how the kit you got looks after its installed
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post #39 of 47 Old 06-21-2019, 08:37 PM
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Re: Current performance options

Here's what it looks like from under the hood.







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post #40 of 47 Old 06-21-2019, 08:42 PM Thread Starter
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Wow. That's clean. That would be perfect. That setup is a little over 900 correct? If so do you think the extra cost is worth the ease of bolt in? I have welder and dont mind welding as long as finished product looks as clean as yours
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post #41 of 47 Old 06-21-2019, 08:46 PM
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Re: Current performance options

Yea, the cheapest I could find it was just over 900. It was worth it to me because my fab skillz are not that mad and I still use my truck everyday. The feel is great. I put on tubular control arms with delrin bushings and tall boints at the same time. Feels like a different vehicle.




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post #42 of 47 Old 06-21-2019, 09:00 PM Thread Starter
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I have new ball joints going in when I install the drop spindles. I held off on tie rods because I wasn't sure what I was doing with the steering at the time. I have somewhat sloppy steering. Idler arm and tie rod are worn.

I was looking at tubular arms when I was searching for the lowering kit. I didnt like the idea of the lowering lower control arms. Dropping the spring pocket 3" seemed like a bad idea with the crappy Pennsylvania roads. However I do like the idea of shaving a couple pounds off the front with tubular arms. Plus my arms have the stock bushings in them still. Did your arms come with the delrin bushings or did you get that seperate?
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post #43 of 47 Old 06-21-2019, 09:12 PM
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Re: Current performance options

They came with the bushings and ball joints installed. Mine are made by UMI Performance, if you shop around you can find them for pretty good prices.



Lowering control arms are a no-no.




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post #44 of 47 Old 06-21-2019, 09:27 PM Thread Starter
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I found the arms you have. Upper and lower arms with delrin bushings and taller upper ball joints. Says it saves 8 pounds from the front which is nice. I can also get the spring/coilover arms so if I swap to coilovers later I dont need to change arms which is a bonus.

Do the tall ball joints affect ride height? It says it changes camber angle but no mention of affecting ride height
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post #45 of 47 Old 06-21-2019, 09:30 PM
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Re: Current performance options

Tall lowers will lower the front .5". From my experience 2" spindles, 1.5" coils (stock ZQ8), and tall lower ball joints is the best way to get 4" out of these trucks. Bang-for-buck-wise, that is.
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post #46 of 47 Old 06-21-2019, 09:45 PM
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Re: Current performance options

You might want to do more research on the PCV problem. If you've got it figured out in your Neon something similar may work in the S10. Not my area of expertise. Here's some info I found online:


Quote:
Boosted Crankcase Pressure

The intake manifold is under pressure during most running conditions when an engine is turbocharged. The gas and oil bypassing the rings are still present, and the pressure generated by the turbocharger can increase crankcase pressures. Thatís when a more advanced PCV system is required.
Vacuum is present before the turbocharger. On some engines, the vacuum is greater than the vacuum generated by the pistons moving downward, but not all the time. Vacuum is generated only when the turbo is spinning. Typically, the area before the turbocharger is where the vapors from the crankcase are fed into the engine. Some turbocharged engines will feed crankcase vapors to the intake manifold with a bypass valve when the turbo is not creating enough vacuum.
Turbochargers do not like ingesting the oil that can be found in crankcase vapors. The oil can form carbon deposits on the vanes and housing and cause a loss of boost.


Modern turbocharged engines have large oil separators typically incorporated into the valve cover or on the side of the engine block. The crankcase pressure is not managed by a simple check valve. Pressures are monitored electronically or mechanically at both the crankcase and intake. The system directs the vapors to either before the turbo or intake manifold when the time is right.
These next-generation PCV systems can fail because they are exposed to high temperatures and combustion gases that can damage plastic, flexible diaphragms, and seals.
If the system starts to leak, it can allow unmetered air to enter the intake. This can cause misfires and lean codes. In some cases, the pressure generated from the turbocharger can find its way into the crankcase if the system has failed. This extra pressure can cause oil leaks. If the pressure is great enough, it can even restrict flow coming from the turbocharger oil return line, thereby shortening the life of the bearings.




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post #47 of 47 Old 06-21-2019, 11:01 PM Thread Starter
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That article talks about the setup I used on my neon. The catch can is the separator for oil. The turbo is always spinning but not always creating boost on a manual transmission vehicle. Autos are a little different. So the low rpms the turbo spins at idle creates small vacuum. When it spools up it creates more crankcase pressure but also creates a lot more vacuum in the short ram tube. This allows the turbo to evac the extra pressure it creates. The drawback to that system is having to drain the oil catch can. Otherwise you may suck oil directly through air intake and into the turbo
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