The New Firearm Thread

[NineSeven4Door]

I'm both sided in the manual safety vs proper operation arguement but my point in the matter is ACCIDENTS HAPPEN. both sides have flaws that come up which may cause an accidental discharge or some oher mishap. fighting over which is "better" is stupid IMO. its all personal preference.

[GETNLWR]

Quote: Originally Posted by NineSeven4Door

I'm both sided in the manual safety vs proper operation arguement but my point in the matter is ACCIDENTS HAPPEN. both sides have flaws that come up which may cause an accidental discharge or some oher mishap. fighting over which is "better" is stupid IMO. its all personal preference.

Yes accidents do happen, however anyone who has done a serious ammount of training, or had something bad happen will tell you, safetys arnt good. in the heat of a moment safetys can hinder you greatly. You want me to really go off... I really hate the dumbasses that dont carry their gun with one in the pipe. THATS STUPID

[NineSeven4Door]

Quote: Originally Posted by GETNLWR

Yes accidents do happen, however anyone who has done a serious ammount of training, or had something bad happen will tell you, safetys arnt good. in the heat of a moment safetys can hinder you greatly. You want me to really go off... I really hate the dumbasses that dont carry their gun with one in the pipe. THATS STUPID

good point....but out of all the people who carry how many have had "serious amount of training".....maybe 13%? and a seriously trained person would be able to draw and release a manual safety and set sights with no problem. i
just dont want to be acccidently shot in the foot by some that has no idea what they're doing. keeping one up top is a great idea in a situaion that you're standing up and facing you attacker, but lets say you're in a car or some other scenerio with makes it harder to make a clean draw? but like i said there are many flaws in BOTH ideas and it all leads to personal preference. i personally carry a Glock(no safety) with one up top....but i dont recommend it for someone without any experiance.

[GETNLWR]

Quote: Originally Posted by NineSeven4Door

good point....but out of all the people who carry how many have had "serious amount of training".....maybe 13%? and a seriously trained person would be able to draw and release a manual safety and set sights with no problem. i
just dont want to be acccidently shot in the foot by some that has no idea what they're doing. keeping one up top is a great idea in a situaion that you're standing up and facing you attacker, but lets say you're in a car or some other scenerio with makes it harder to make a clean draw? but like i said there are many flaws in BOTH ideas and it all leads to personal preference. i personally carry a Glock(no safety) with one up top....but i dont recommend it for someone without any experiance.

If soemone has NO TRAINING. They should have no buisness for carrying a firearm for self defence. Basic pistol training doesnot need to be done by a class either, ANYONE, who is proficiant and responcible could train them. However any one carrying with a lack of training would be equal, to handing a 12yr old the keys to your truck and expenting nothing to go wrong.

The longer it takes to fire off a shot is time you are closer to being injured further or worse. Gennerally there are two types of people I know who dont carry with one in the tube.

1. People who dont trust the firearm or their abilitys. They are either untrained or have an inabillity to rely on their choice of firearm

2. People that are "toughguys" or similar. who want to "rack" the slide, to provove a responce from someone, typically these are gangbanger types or people that are just plain stupid. If and when I run into the second type, The first thing I note is they always have a lack of training and i know they are not well versed on how their pistol works. Noticing this can be of great advantage to you. It also tells you their personality.

If they dont have any experince, I reccomend they dont carry.

[1s152nv]

Quote: Originally Posted by GETNLWR

Yes accidents do happen, however anyone who has done a serious ammount of training, or had something bad happen will tell you, safetys arnt good. in the heat of a moment safetys can hinder you greatly. You want me to really go off... I really hate the dumbasses that dont carry their gun with one in the pipe. THATS STUPID

I agree, in a sudden and violent attack, your motor skills are greatly reduced, you don't want to be fumbling around for a safety, or worse, try to rack the slide. Remember, it takes two hands to rack the slide, and if your being attacked, one hand is most likely going to be out in front of you to hold them at bay while you "try" to get to your firearm. It's not always like the movies where the attacker televises his attack, and gives our hero plenty of time to react.

[GETNLWR]

Quote: Originally Posted by 1s152nv

I agree, in a sudden and violent attack, your motor skills are greatly reduced, you don't want to be fumbling around for a safety, or worse, try to rack the slide. Remember, it takes two hands to rack the slide, and if your being attacked, one hand is most likely going to be out in front of you to hold them at bay while you "try" to get to your firearm. It's not always like the movies where the attacker televises his attack, and gives our hero plenty of time to react.

One must remeber the way things happen in the moves is NEVER true to form in the REAL world. However Assault on precinct 13 had a very talented technical director. The round count and reloads were done correctly.


ANYWAY. if you have no training you may be more of a threat to yourself than anyone else.

[1s152nv]

Has anybody had any experience with some of the pre-fragmented ammo out there such as magsafe? Any of my firearms instructors I've talked to said its unproven, and thats pretty much all they know. If you believe what they say on their website, its the best thing since sliced bread. A lot of what they say is VERY hard to swallow. And if it was true, everybody would be using it.

Heres a quick exert from there website:

THE BOTTOM LINE
MagSafe Ammo is faster, recoils less, and stops attackers faster than any other ammunition in the world. Elite forces are outfitted with MagSafe, from Navy SEALS to the Royal Hong Kong Police anti-gang units, from big-city undercover narcs to guards at some of America's meanest prisons.

The reason is simple. MagSafe works. It's expensive, but it works. You really can turn your .380 into .45 auto, but you have to pay for this kind of hand-crafted performance.

The question is this: Just how much is your life worth?

http://www.magsafeonline.com/magnum_performance.html

[GETNLWR]

Quote: Originally Posted by 1s152nv

Has anybody had any experience with some of the pre-fragmented ammo out there such as magsafe? Any of my firearms instructors I've talked to said its unproven, and thats pretty much all they know. If you believe what they say on their website, its the best thing since sliced bread. A lot of what they say is VERY hard to swallow. And if it was true, everybody would be using it.

Heres a quick exert from there website:

THE BOTTOM LINE
MagSafe Ammo is faster, recoils less, and stops attackers faster than any other ammunition in the world. Elite forces are outfitted with MagSafe, from Navy SEALS to the Royal Hong Kong Police anti-gang units, from big-city undercover narcs to guards at some of America's meanest prisons.

The reason is simple. MagSafe works. It's expensive, but it works. You really can turn your .380 into .45 auto, but you have to pay for this kind of hand-crafted performance.

The question is this: Just how much is your life worth?

http://www.magsafeonline.com/magnum_performance.html

Save you hard earned cash. Go buy something usefull, maybe night sites or... porn or whatever... I have some experiance with it and wotnt buy it. If you bieleve what they say, I have a bridge to sell you... cheap.

Its NOT being used by seals... or any other agency that I know of. Its too expensive, and it counts as a "dum-dum" bullet. The US .mil WONT use it.

if you want some good ammo...

Win Ranger SXT/Black Talon (Any Caliber)
Speer Gold dots (Any Caliber)
Win Silvertip (40&10mm only)
Hornady TAP (Any Caliber)
PMC starfire (Any Caliber)
Rem. Golden Sabers (Any Caliber)
Fed Hydra Shocks (Any Caliber)


Yes in this order too. (My preferences obvously)
In my Local area i know the Sheriffs carry the Golden Sabers in .40 165gr I think

[1s152nv]

Quote: Originally Posted by GETNLWR

Save you hard earned cash. Go buy something usefull, maybe night sites or... porn or whatever... I have some experiance with it and wotnt buy it. If you bieleve what they say, I have a bridge to sell you... cheap.

Its NOT being used by seals... or any other agency that I know of. Its too expensive, and it counts as a "dum-dum" bullet. The US .mil WONT use it.

if you want some good ammo...

Win Ranger SXT/Black Talon (Any Caliber)
Speer Gold dots (Any Caliber)
Win Silvertip (40&10mm only)
Hornady TAP (Any Caliber)
PMC starfire (Any Caliber)
Rem. Golden Sabers (Any Caliber)
Fed Hydra Shocks (Any Caliber)


Yes in this order too. (My preferences obvously)
In my Local area i know the Sheriffs carry the Golden Sabers in .40 165gr I think

Yep, thats what I thought. Thanks.

[NineSeven4Door]

Quote: Originally Posted by GETNLWR

If soemone has NO TRAINING. They should have no buisness for carrying a firearm for self defence. Basic pistol training doesnot need to be done by a class either, ANYONE, who is proficiant and responcible could train them. However any one carrying with a lack of training would be equal, to handing a 12yr old the keys to your truck and expenting nothing to go wrong.

The longer it takes to fire off a shot is time you are closer to being injured further or worse. Gennerally there are two types of people I know who dont carry with one in the tube.

1. People who dont trust the firearm or their abilitys. They are either untrained or have an inabillity to rely on their choice of firearm

2. People that are "toughguys" or similar. who want to "rack" the slide, to provove a responce from someone, typically these are gangbanger types or people that are just plain stupid. If and when I run into the second type, The first thing I note is they always have a lack of training and i know they are not well versed on how their pistol works. Noticing this can be of great advantage to you. It also tells you their personality.

If they dont have any experince, I reccomend they dont carry.

i never said anything about anyone with no training carrying. i simply said not everyone has "serious training" i think is how you put it. and now you go from seriously trained to basic trained....im confused as to which you're refering too. doesnt matter though.

carrying a firearm cocked with no saftey doubles the chances of an accidental discharge.

now if you prefer to carry one in the pipe...the most logical and safe idea is a manual safety....if you cannot flick your thumb quick enough to disable a manual safety before you set sights, then YOU do not need to carry a firearm. no one is the "perfect firearm toter" nor is there a 100% completely safe and reliable firearm. like i said accidents happen and will continue to happen no matter how trained someone is. BUT.......

like i said...BOTH SIDES HAVE BOTH PROS AND CONS AND IT ALL BOILS DOWN TO PERSONAL PREFERENCE. im not praising one over the other. im just simply trying so show you there are ideas against your own and there is more to it than the idea you believe in.

[NineSeven4Door]

Quote: Originally Posted by 1s152nv

I agree, in a sudden and violent attack, your motor skills are greatly reduced, you don't want to be fumbling around for a safety, or worse, try to rack the slide. Remember, it takes two hands to rack the slide, and if your being attacked, one hand is most likely going to be out in front of you to hold them at bay while you "try" to get to your firearm. It's not always like the movies where the attacker televises his attack, and gives our hero plenty of time to react.

You say motor skills are reduced and i couldnt agree more. these reduced motor skills could easily cause you to accidentally pull the trigger, drop the firearm, or many other factors that can cause you to accidentally discharge the firearm inguring yourself or some else that it was not intended for. a manual safety would eliminate those factors.....AND can be disabled with ONE hand.

[ride and destroy]

ive searched a bit here and there and cant seem to find much on owning a pistol in canada. i meant to ask in the old thread but didnt wanna get flamed with anti canada bs. but does anyone on here know what the laws are pertaining to pistols and/or carrying one? from what i found , carring is illegal and at home it has to remain unloaded, magazine and gun locked separatley. any info here would be appreciated, thinking about doing some competitive shooting perhaps

[1s152nv]

Quote: Originally Posted by NineSeven4Door

You say motor skills are reduced and i couldnt agree more. these reduced motor skills could easily cause you to accidentally pull the trigger, drop the firearm, or many other factors that can cause you to accidentally discharge the firearm inguring yourself or some else that it was not intended for. a manual safety would eliminate those factors.....AND can be disabled with ONE hand.

Yep, another good point, although a manual safety would not completely "eliminate" those factors, could still help. But every situation is different, and there's evidence that supports both sides of the debate.

I've had different instructors in different seminars that are split on this debate. Many are or used to be law enforcement officers or are NRA instructors. So I agree with you, it comes down to personal preference and what you feel comfortable with.

Oh, and training, which I feel is most important.

[GETNLWR]

Quote: Originally Posted by ride and destroy

ive searched a bit here and there and cant seem to find much on owning a pistol in canada. i meant to ask in the old thread but didnt wanna get flamed with anti canada bs. but does anyone on here know what the laws are pertaining to pistols and/or carrying one? from what i found , carring is illegal and at home it has to remain unloaded, magazine and gun locked separatley. any info here would be appreciated, thinking about doing some competitive shooting perhaps

I am not going to be of much help to you. I just dont know Canadian gun laws. I know they have rules abuut minimum barrel leingth. however I was also to understand they can have what the usa calls an SBR in canada with out the hassels we have in the US. I9 will see that I can dig up for you but I have Little knowledge in canadian laws.

[Cruznsten]

all this argument about manual safety vs. operational locks and carrying with one in the top or not...just carry a revolver. i have a hammerless S&W lady smith with the air frame. its super light, super compact and is always ready to go. sure, i only have 5 rounds but with my crimson trace...that should be plenty. the trigger pull is pretty heavy so you have to really mean it to fire off a round. a mistake i see a lot is people who buy pistols to carry, then they only shoot like a magazine through them and call it good. i believe you need to fire 50-100 rounds through the gun to really get used to how it behaves. preperation is the key to safety IMO

[nater006]

Problem is, revolvers aren't really chambered in centerfire defense calibers. They are insanely reliable, but... so are Glocks and Sigs. You could always decide to carry a DA semiauto if the heavy trigger pull is important to you. I want to say that the Walther P99 has a DA option but don't remember... sorry.

I agree with you about preparation, but, I also don't think that every situation is going to give you time to prep, so you have to carry with the understanding that anything could happen.

[GETNLWR]

Quote: Originally Posted by nater006

Problem is, revolvers aren't really chambered in centerfire defense calibers. They are insanely reliable, but... so are Glocks and Sigs. You could always decide to carry a DA semiauto if the heavy trigger pull is important to you. I want to say that the Walther P99 has a DA option but don't remember... sorry.

I agree with you about preparation, but, I also don't think that every situation is going to give you time to prep, so you have to carry with the understanding that anything could happen.

You are joking right???

The 38spl, 357, 44spl, 45auto, 41mag, are ALL reliable manstoppers. They also all have kept up to date like current "pistol cartriges do"

Quote: Originally Posted by Cruznsten

all this argument about manual safety vs. operational locks and carrying with one in the top or not...just carry a revolver. i have a hammerless S&W lady smith with the air frame. its super light, super compact and is always ready to go. sure, i only have 5 rounds but with my crimson trace...that should be plenty. the trigger pull is pretty heavy so you have to really mean it to fire off a round. a mistake i see a lot is people who buy pistols to carry, then they only shoot like a magazine through them and call it good. i believe you need to fire 50-100 rounds through the gun to really get used to how it behaves. preperation is the key to safety IMO

I know this guy, he's a DJ at a local club and also a mechanical enginer, hes got a glock 23, He carried it for 2 years, before he ever fired it. I cussed him out to the point that he went to the range and put 500 rounds down range n a day.

[NineSeven4Door]

Quote: Originally Posted by Cruznsten

all this argument about manual safety vs. operational locks and carrying with one in the top or not...just carry a revolver. i have a hammerless S&W lady smith with the air frame. its super light, super compact and is always ready to go. sure, i only have 5 rounds but with my crimson trace...that should be plenty. the trigger pull is pretty heavy so you have to really mean it to fire off a round. a mistake i see a lot is people who buy pistols to carry, then they only shoot like a magazine through them and call it good. i believe you need to fire 50-100 rounds through the gun to really get used to how it behaves. preperation is the key to safety IMO

i agree 100%. the revolver has the simplest yet most reliable design. main problem with them like you said is most only hold 5 or 6 rounds(unless is a smaller caliber like .22 or .25 which sometimes hold 8). i personally dont like hammerless models, i like being able to lock the hammer back before i fire.

[NineSeven4Door]

Quote: Originally Posted by GETNLWR

The 38spl, 357, 44spl, 45auto, 41mag, are ALL reliable manstoppers. They also all have kept up to date like current "pistol cartriges do"

dont forget about the .454, had any experiance with that caliber yet? saw one at the pawn shop the other day and i must say thats a hoss.

[kelton]

I need to take pictures of my guns and post them. I have a Savage .30-.30 pump action rifle that I deer hunt with. I havent heard of many pump action rifles so its pretty cool. Except it gets jammed if you dont know how to pump it just right.

[GETNLWR]

Quote: Originally Posted by NineSeven4Door

dont forget about the .454, had any experiance with that caliber yet? saw one at the pawn shop the other day and i must say thats a hoss.

The Post I was Quoting was about "defecannsive" calibers.

I have shot a few 454's and they pack a wallop.

most people know the 38spl and 357 are like brothers...

you can shoot 38's in a 357 no prob. not the oter way around.

now... check this out...

the relation between 45colt and 454 is the same as what I am refering to above. You can shoot 45colt out of a 454 no prob...

To make this even better add a new cartrige to the mix...

460S&W if you have a 460, you can fire 454's in it AND 45colt.
460 is an awesome revolver and they are made on the same frames as the SW500

pics.
left to right... 45colt. 454casull, 460SW

[Zapnoma]

Quote: Originally Posted by NineSeven4Door

You say motor skills are reduced and i couldnt agree more. these reduced motor skills could easily cause you to accidentally pull the trigger, drop the firearm, or many other factors that can cause you to accidentally discharge the firearm inguring yourself or some else that it was not intended for. a manual safety would eliminate those factors.....AND can be disabled with ONE hand.

Depends on how much training you have.

[GETNLWR]

Quote: Originally Posted by Zapnoma

Depends on how much training you have.

That Goes Back to Muscle memory.

If you Train how you will fight, you will end up fighting how you train. Then we can talk about Major memory vs. Minor memory. Does anyone else kow the difference?

Can you show an example?

[GETNLWR]

Quote: Originally Posted by GETNLWR

That Goes Back to Muscle memory.

If you Train how you will fight, you will end up fighting how you train. Then we can talk about Major memory vs. Minor memory. Does anyone else kow the difference?

Can you show an example?

Well since I havnt gotten a responce yet.

Its been proven that small movements, like the slide release of a pistol,(minor memory) are some of the most messed up actions. during high stress times.

Where as a Major memory is rarely messed up an example would be grabbing the slide after reloading to load the first cartrige of a magazine.

does this make sence?

[1s152nv]

I'd like to see people post some of the methods they use to train to help combat some of the motor skills and muscle memory loss.

I'll post a couple of mine:

-draw from my holster and fire a few shots, reholster, and then repeat.

-practice shooting while backing up.

-practice drawing while in motion, such as walking towards the target, drawing, and then shooting.

I thought I remember reading somewhere on here where somebody went for a run before shooting to increase their heart rate, to simulate a stressful situation. I thought that was a pretty good idea. I'm always looking for good training methods.

[GETNLWR]

Quote: Originally Posted by 1s152nv

I'd like to see people post some of the methods they use to train to help combat some of the motor skills and muscle memory loss.

I'll post a couple of mine:

-draw from my holster and fire a few shots, reholster, and then repeat.

-practice shooting while backing up.

-practice drawing while in motion, such as walking towards the target, drawing, and then shooting.

I thought I remember reading somewhere on here where somebody went for a run before shooting to increase their heart rate, to simulate a stressful situation. I thought that was a pretty good idea. I'm always looking for good training methods.

I have a file on my computer called 14 days to a better shooter.

here it is.



14 days to becoming a better shooter




All right….so you have acquired a rifle. Now what?? Well, now is when the ‘fun’ begins. Now is when you will learn the ‘personality’ and the little ‘quirks’ that all machines possess.


All you need for the next phase of your training is a few magazines (as few as two but a full combat load is even better), something to carry those magazines in (whether it is old used ALICE gear, or a brand new custom rig – it really makes no difference at this point), and some ammunition to practice with (you can start with as little as 100 but you will go through many more over the years).


Next buy some ‘dummy’ rounds – or if you reload (or know a reloader) make some up yourself.


Get some reduced sized targets (targets that are reduced in size to approximate distance) and make sure you have 15 feet of room for your ‘practice’ area. Place the target on the wall 15 feet from your ‘dry fire’ line. All of your ‘dry fire shooting practice’ will take place at the 15 foot line.


This will NOT help you be a better “target shooter” – its intention is to help you train so that you can fight better with your rifle.


Now some comments on safety.


Dry fire is practice performed without live ammunition. ALL aspects of ‘shooting’ can and should be practiced ‘dry’. The only difference will be that there will be no flash, recoil cycling, ejections of spend rounds and impact of the bullet downrange. However, sight alignment, sight picture, trigger manipulation, follow-through, magazine changes, malfunction clearance drills, movement, etc., can be practiced while ‘dry’.


The FIRST thing one need do before starting a dry fire regimen is to decide WHERE one will dry fire practice. The ‘place’ needs to be somewhere where live rounds are not and will never be kept, or stored. Live rounds should NEVER be in the ‘dry fire room’ – under ANY circumstances. This will avoid any ‘Unintentional Discharges’ (UD’s).


First step for ‘dry fire’ practice is to COMPLETELY unload the firearm prior to entering one’s ‘dry fire’ room. At a minimum lock the bolt to the rear and look into the chamber to verify that it is indeed empty. The magazines are ‘empty’ also, with the followers clearly visible. I use ‘blaze orange’ plastic dummy rounds for dry practice, but they are inserted into the magazines while in my ‘dry fire room’. Color really doesn’t matter as long as they are definitely dummy rounds.


The most important thing to remember regarding ‘dry fire’ practice is to NEVER dry fire practice where there are live rounds available. Dry practice only when completely separated by at least ‘one closed door’ from live ammunition.


One in the dry fire room, Load some DUMMY ammunition into a magazine.
















Practice Session One


You are now ready for dry fire practice. For this first practice, just load and unload the rifle. Insert the magazine, manipulate the bolt (chamber a round), close the bolt fully, remove the magazine, manipulate the bolt (clearing the chamber), do this over and over again. Do this SLOWLY. Perform this 50 times. DO NOT TRY TO SPEED UP! (There will be a great temptation to try and do this as fast as you can – AVOID THIS TEMPTATION! Speed will come all on its own. Speed is the absence of excess movement. When you ‘try’ to speed up – our movements are ‘jerky’ and you will be SLOWER than if you just let speed come all by itself.)


Next perform this same drill, but now practice removing the magazine from the mag pouch to load, and inserting into your ‘dump pouch’ when unloading. REMEMBER TO GO SLOW! Perform this drill 50 times. (Most guys have their magazines in the pouch with the bullets ‘down’ and ‘pointed towards the belly button’.) Grab the magazine by the ‘base’ – as it is ‘up’ and take it directly to the magazine as well. Try not to do any other movements. REMEMBER TO GO SLOW! Give your body a chance to ‘learn’ this new movement. It is OK to watch this entire drill with your eyes – this will help the brain learn the different movements.


Practice Session Two


Perform 10 ‘load/unload’ drills as above using your web gear to hold mags and your dump pouch for the ‘old’ magazine.


Now blindfold yourself and perform this drill 10 times. Be sure to check that the chamber is empty after unloading. Since you are blindfolded – this can be done with your finger.


Next perform this drill WITHOUT the blindfold 10 times.


Then put the blindfold back on and perform this drill 20 more times.


Take the blindfold off and do it another 10 times WITHOUT “watching” – keep your eyes fixed on the target on the wall.


Practice Session Three


Perform 10 ‘load/unload’ drills while ‘watching’. GO SLOW!


Perform 10 ‘load/unload’ drills while blindfolded. GO SLOW!


Perform 10 ‘load/unload’ drills without watching (but not blindfolded). GO SLOW!


Next, after each time you ‘load’ your rifle – shoot the target in the chest or head area one time. Then ‘unload’. Perform this 25 times.
Remember – EVERY time you load OR unload, use your finger to check to make sure it has happened. GO SLOW! Also – follow through! (Follow through is to continue to watch the front sight/target for a slow count of 3 AFTER pulling the trigger & before dropping the muzzle.)










Practice Session Four


Perform 10 ‘load/unload’ WITHOUT looking.


Perform 20 Malfunction type #1 drills while watching. GO SLOW!


Perform 10 Malfunction type #1 drills while blindfolded.


Perform 10 Malfunction type #1 drills without watching.


Practice Session Five


Perform 10 Malfunction type #1 drills while watching.


Perform 10 Malfunction type #1 drills without watching.


Perform 20 Malfunction type #2 drills while watching.


Perform 10 Malfunction type #2 drills while blindfolded.


Perform 10 Malfunction type #2 drills without watching.


Practice Session Six


Perform 10 Malfunction type #1 drills without watching.


Perform 10 Malfunction type #2 drills without watching.


Perform 20 Malfunction type #3 drills while watching.


Perform 10 Malfunction type #3 drills while blindfolded.


Perform 10 Malfunction type #3 drills without watching.


Practice Session Seven


Perform 20 Malfunction type #1 drills without watching.


Perform 20 Malfunction type #2 drills without watching.


Perform 20 Malfunction type #3 drills without watching.


Perform 20 reloads while retaining magazine (without watching).


Perform 20 reloads while dropping magazine (without watching).














Practice Session Eight


Perform 25 head shots at 25 yards – strong side. (Aim near the top of the head and use a good solid ‘fighting stance’ – NOT a ‘target stance’.) GO SLOW!


Perform 25 head shots at 25 yards – weak side. GO SLOW!


Perform 25 body shots at 50 yards – strong side. GO SLOW!


Perform 25 body shots at 50 yards – weak side. GO SLOW!


Practice reload drills, and malfunction drills.


Practice Session Nine


Perform 25 body shots at 100 yards. GO SLOW!


Perform 25 body shots at 200 yards. GO SLOW!


Perform 10 body shots at 25 yards – both strong and weak side.


Perform 10 body shots at 50 yards – both strong and weak side.


Practice Session Ten


Practice position assumption from standing to squatting and shooting 50 yard target – 50 times. Perform 50 times.


Practice position assumption from standing to kneeling and shooting 50 yard target – 50 times. Perform 50 times.


Perform reloads and malfunction clearance drills.


Practice Session Eleven


Practice position assumption from standing to rice paddy prone and shooting 50 yard target – 50 times. Perform 50 times.


Practice position assumption from standing to modified prone and shooting 50 yard target – 50 times. Perform 50 times.


Practice position assumption from standing to ‘regular’ prone and shooting 50 yard target – 50 times. Perform 50 times.


Perform reloads and malfunction clearance drills.
















Practice Session Twelve


Practice moving forward slowly. Try and walk at least 15-20 feet and try to keep the front sight on the 25 meter target. Perform 50 times.


Practice moving backward slowly. Use 25 meter target. Perform 50 times.


Practice moving diagonally to the right moving forward. Use 25 meter target. Perform 50 times.


Practice moving diagonally to the left moving forward. Use 25 meter target. Perform 50 times.


Practice Session Thirteen


Practice moving diagonally BACKWARD to the right. Use 25 meter target. Perform 50 times.


Practice moving diagonally BACKWARD to the left. Use 25 meter target. Perform 50 times.


Practice moving and reloading.


Practice moving and performing malfunction clearance drills.


Practice moving and then assuming different positions.


Practice Session Fourteen


WORK SLOWLY – which means perform LOTS MORE dry fire while going slowly – to increase performance.


REPEAT ALL OF THE ABOVE DRILLS AS TIME/CIRCUMSTANCES PERMIT. By following this regimen, you are guaranteed of being better at fighting with your longarm than you were when you started.








NOTE:


As stated many times in days 1 through 14 – GO SLOW. If you try to ‘go fast’ – you will be SLOWER.


GO SLOW. GO SLOW. GO SLOW. THINK SMOOTH. THINK SMOOTH. THINK SMOOTH




























Basic malfunction clearance drills:



Tap-Rack-Bang =


Tap the mag, Rack the slide, Pull trigger (bang)








“OSPORTS” =


Observe what malfunction is, Slap mag, Pull charging handle, Observe clearing of malfunction, Release charging handle, Tap forward assist, Squeeze trigger








Double feed or failure to fully eject/stovepipe: = pull the charging handle to the rear, rotate weapon to the right to drop/shake out cartridges, release charging handle, squeeze trigger.


In addition, You may have to “drop” the magazine to clear your weapon’s malfunction.








Try to maintain a visual on target area as well as keeping weapon pointed at the target area, while doing malfunction clearance drills if possible.


If your malfunction requires more time than a simple clearance drill, seek cover/go prone/retreat to clear weapon and/or use pistol to engage hostile targets.








2nd file: Basin malfunctions clearing drills

Basic Malfunction Clearing Drills






This print deals with malfunction clearing drills for the AR15 series of weapons; it can be utilized with other weapon systems as well.


These are not absolute, nor written in stone, they can be adapted to fit the end user as he or she sees fit. This is provided as a base line to work from.


These drills are assuming all magazines are fully loaded and operational.


Be sure to practice while going SLOW. Do not attempt to do these drills fast. Speed comes naturally from SLOW practice.










Malfunction Type # 1
Failure to fire.
When firing, weapon “clicks” instead of firing when depressing the trigger.




To clear this malfunction; rotate weapon to the left, observe what the malfunction is.




Slap the bottom of magazine to ensure it is fully seated and locked in the weapon.




Rotate weapon to the right while pulling charging handle to the rear. Release charging handle.


Attempt to fire weapon.


























Malfunction Type # 2
Failure to eject or “stovepipe”.
When firing, weapon “clicks” instead of firing when depressing the trigger.


To clear this malfunction; rotate weapon to left, observe what the malfunction is.


Slap the bottom of magazine to ensure it is fully seated and locked in the weapon.




Rotate weapon to the right while pulling charging handle to the rear, shake out “jammed” round.
Release charging handle.


Attempt to fire weapon.








Malfunction Type # 3
Failure to extract or “double feed”.
Weapon fails to fully extract fired case from chamber, attempts to chamber a live round into base of round in chamber.


When firing, weapon fails to fire, trigger feels “locked” or “spongy” due to bolt carrier holding down the hammer.


You may need to seek cover when clearing this type of malfunction.


To clear this malfunction; rotate weapon to left, observe what the malfunction is.


Remove magazine from weapon, place in “dump pouch” or discard.


Rotate weapon to the right while pulling charging handle to the rear, shake out “jammed” round.


Release charging handle. Pull charging handle to the rear and release 2 times to ensure clearance of malfunction and all ammunition from weapon.


Insert “fresh” loaded magazine from your magazine pouch.


Slap bottom of magazine to ensure it is fully seated and locked into the weapon.


Charge weapon by pulling and releasing charging handle.


Attempt to fire weapon.


NOTE:


Try to maintain a visual on target area as well as keeping weapon pointed at the target area, while doing malfunction clearance drills if possible.


If your weapon malfunction requires more time than a simple clearance drill, seek cover/go prone/retreat/etc. to clear weapon and/or use pistol to engage hostile targets.


























Simplified malfunction clearing:


Tap-Rack-Bang =


Tap the magazine, Rack the slide, Pull the trigger (bang)










Military malfunction clearing system.




“OSPORTS” =


Observe what malfunction is, Slap magazine, Pull charging handle, Observe clearing of malfunction, Release charging handle, Tap forward assist, Squeeze trigger





-------------------------------------
Keep in mind that most stuff I have info for is for tactical guns like the AR15

[nater006]

Quote: Originally Posted by GETNLWR

You are joking right???

The 38spl, 357, 44spl, 45auto, 41mag, are ALL reliable manstoppers. They also all have kept up to date like current "pistol cartriges do"


I know this guy, he's a DJ at a local club and also a mechanical enginer, hes got a glock 23, He carried it for 2 years, before he ever fired it. I cussed him out to the point that he went to the range and put 500 rounds down range n a day.

Sigh, here we go again. Yes, there are revolvers chambered in calibers that can effectively stop people. Are they optimal? Is ammo easily findable and readily available for those? (Not around here..). The .41 mag is primarily available as hunting ammunition. Yeah, I'm sure somebody provides P ammo for it somewhere.

There are also "defense" semiautos chambered in totally stupid calibers. .25 and .32 come to mind.

How practical is it to carry those in 5-6 not-very-quickly reloadable rounds (lets not get into a stupid speedloader conversation), compared to a 10+ round semiauto? Preference, of course, as usual, but I'd rather go for the semiauto.

Just my $.02. I have nothing against revolvers. I'm quite aware that they are an effective tool for self defense.


EDIT: incidentally, I do agree with you about the semiauto. No, it's not an excuse to not properly test and break in a firearm, but.. some of hte modern semiautos are very reliable.

[GETNLWR]

Quote: Originally Posted by nater006

Sigh, here we go again. Yes, there are revolvers chambered in calibers that can effectively stop people. Are they optimal? Is ammo easily findable and readily available for those? (Not around here..). The .41 mag is primarily available as hunting ammunition. Yeah, I'm sure somebody provides P ammo for it somewhere.

There are also "defense" semiautos chambered in totally stupid calibers. .25 and .32 come to mind.

How practical is it to carry those in 5-6 not-very-quickly reloadable rounds (lets not get into a stupid speedloader conversation), compared to a 10+ round semiauto? Preference, of course, as usual, but I'd rather go for the semiauto.

Just my $.02. I have nothing against revolvers. I'm quite aware that they are an effective tool for self defense.


EDIT: incidentally, I do agree with you about the semiauto. No, it's not an excuse to not properly test and break in a firearm, but.. some of hte modern semiautos are very reliable.

Wow, If you cant find basic 38/357 ammo you probably cant find 9, 40, or 45. The most well known calibers availible in almost every Mom&Pop hardware store are .22, 9mm, 38spl, 357 Mag, 40S&W, 45ACP and 44MAG.

7-8 rounds of 357 isnt anything to turn your nose up at either.

I carry as a primary only semiautos. HOWEVER my backup gun is ALWAYS a revolver. They dont easly jam, they can be fired by anyone, and require very littel training.

As for the red part: Yes i agree that those calibers are not always adaquite for self defence, however let me ask you a couple of questions.

1. If i aimed a .22 Revolver at you and squeezed the trigger would it cause any phisical damage to you? or how about mental damage?
2. If you were fighting for your life would you prefer a
A Pocket knife
B Baseball bat
C 22 revolver with 8 shots
D Crowbar
E Nothing

Personally my choices would be (C)

Any gun is better than NO gun.

If you are interested in hearing it maybe one day I will type out the story of how my Aunt was murdered in december of 2000 with a 22 pistol. This is also why I am big into self defence and training.

[Zapnoma]

Quote: Originally Posted by GETNLWR

That Goes Back to Muscle memory.

If you Train how you will fight, you will end up fighting how you train. Then we can talk about Major memory vs. Minor memory. Does anyone else kow the difference?

Can you show an example?

I was actually meaning that the more tactical training you do, the more confidence you have in yourself, your abilities and general overall better preparedness for handling a sudden situation.

As far as "muscle memory", I've never really bought into it myself. Of course the more you practice something, the better you learn it and the better you are at it.
Muscle memory as its been taught to us by the military is something repititous that you do over and over again and it hopefully becomes 2nd nature to you. Myself and a few others can and we did, get taught on the .50cal M2 and within 2-3times of taking it apart/putting it back together could do it on our own.
Some people are just more apt to pick things up quickly and ingrain it into their memory without having to do it 5000000x...

[GETNLWR]

Quote: Originally Posted by Zapnoma

I was actually meaning that the more tactical training you do, the more confidence you have in yourself, your abilities and general overall better preparedness for handling a sudden situation.

As far as "muscle memory", I've never really bought into it myself. Of course the more you practice something, the better you learn it and the better you are at it.
Muscle memory as its been taught to us by the military is something repititous that you do over and over again and it hopefully becomes 2nd nature to you. Myself and a few others can and we did, get taught on the .50cal M2 and within 2-3times of taking it apart/putting it back together could do it on our own.
Some people are just more apt to pick things up quickly and ingrain it into their memory without having to do it 5000000x...

Some pick it up faster than others, I was also reffering to super high stress situations, a larger movment is easier than a small movement.

[nater006]

Incorrect on the ammunition. Not all calibers are easy to find everywhere. That's all there is to it. If you want proof, well, stop on in and we'll go ammo shopping. Not everybody frequents gun shows, orders online, or has access to a store with large selections of ammo. Not every mom & pop store carries a good selection of all the ammo you listed. I'd personally rather carry quality ammo in a good caliber than "something" that's the right caliber in another firearm.

I never said that no gun was better than a crap caliber. You don't even have to debate that point...heh. Argue it if you want but uh... nobody has even taken the other side..

As for revolvers, it's a matter of preference again. I don't choose to carry one. There is no right or wrong. Sort of like... how there is no one right for a defense caliber.

[NCarolina910]

Quote:

November 19 is National Ammo Day.

It is a nationwide BUYcott of ammunition. You buy ammunition. 100 Rounds a person.

The goals of Ammo Day:

The goal of National Ammo Day is to empty the ammunition from the shelves of your local gun store, sporting goods, or hardware store and put that ammunition in the hands of law-abiding citizens. Make your support of the Second Amendment known--by voting with your dollars!

There are an estimated 75 MILLION gun owners in the United States of America. If each gun owner or Second Amendment supporter buys 100 rounds of ammunition, that’s 7.5 BILLION rounds in the hands of law-abiding citizens!


The gun/ammunition manufacturers have been taking the brunt of all the frivolous lawsuits, trying to put these folks out of business. Well, not if we can help it! And we CAN help it by buying ammunition on November 19!

I just bought some hollow points and 12 gauge shells today, but I figure I might pick me up some cheep 9mm for target shooting on Monday.

[Zapnoma]

Quote: Originally Posted by GETNLWR

Some pick it up faster than others, I was also reffering to super high stress situations, a larger movment is easier than a small movement.

Hence the "some people are more apt than others...."

[not_possible]

Quote: Originally Posted by nater006

Incorrect on the ammunition. Not all calibers are easy to find everywhere. That's all there is to it. If you want proof, well, stop on in and we'll go ammo shopping. Not everybody frequents gun shows, orders online, or has access to a store with large selections of ammo. Not every mom & pop store carries a good selection of all the ammo you listed. I'd personally rather carry quality ammo in a good caliber than "something" that's the right caliber in another firearm.

I never said that no gun was better than a crap caliber. You don't even have to debate that point...heh. Argue it if you want but uh... nobody has even taken the other side..

As for revolvers, it's a matter of preference again. I don't choose to carry one. There is no right or wrong. Sort of like... how there is no one right for a defense caliber.

damn if you cant walk into a place and buy .38special, .44special, or 357mag i'd be moving. even every walmart around here has those calibers in stock usually rem. or win.

[old_skool_noma]

Quote: Originally Posted by GETNLWR

Wow, If you cant find basic 38/357 ammo you probably cant find 9, 40, or 45. The most well known calibers availible in almost every Mom&Pop hardware store are .22, 9mm, 38spl, 357 Mag, 40S&W, 45ACP and 44MAG.

7-8 rounds of 357 isnt anything to turn your nose up at either.

I carry as a primary only semiautos. HOWEVER my backup gun is ALWAYS a revolver. They dont easly jam, they can be fired by anyone, and require very littel training.

As for the red part: Yes i agree that those calibers are not always adaquite for self defence, however let me ask you a couple of questions.

1. If i aimed a .22 Revolver at you and squeezed the trigger would it cause any phisical damage to you? or how about mental damage?
2. If you were fighting for your life would you prefer a
A Pocket knife
B Baseball bat
C 22 revolver with 8 shots
D Crowbar
E Nothing

Personally my choices would be (C)

Any gun is better than NO gun.

If you are interested in hearing it maybe one day I will type out the story of how my Aunt was murdered in december of 2000 with a 22 pistol. This is also why I am big into self defence and training.

agreed, a .357 mag will pack a hell of a punch, dad has one, every time you pull the trigger the recoil brings it way up, way more recoil than my cousins s&w 9mm. i would have no problem trusting my life to a revolver, although i would like to have a 1911.

as far as a .22 you can stop someone with a .22 as well as you could with a .45 its just a matter of hitting them in the right spot, if nothing else you at least gave them incentive to leave you alone

[GETNLWR]

Quote: Originally Posted by not_possible

damn if you cant walk into a place and buy .38special, .44special, or 357mag i'd be moving. even every walmart around here has those calibers in stock usually rem. or win.

Yup, They are Super common. JUST AS COMMON AS 9mm 40 and 45acp.

40SW being the "hardest one to find"

[2Xtreme]

well the tension is getting a lil high in here, so im gonna post up pics,

I got cleared and picked it up yesterday!

[GETNLWR]

Quote: Originally Posted by 2Xtreme

well the tension is getting a lil high in here, so im gonna post up pics,

I got cleared and picked it up yesterday!

Excellant choice. want a gold plated trigger for that? CDNN has them on sale... No, I am not joking, they really do have them on sale.
Photo added for obvious reasons.

[2Xtreme]

ehh i dont think so...i like how it looks!

[Wrkn prgs]

How much did that set you back? Im trading in my Tristar O/U 12 gauge in for a Springfield 1911.

[2Xtreme]

I got it used for 540!

[Wrkn prgs]

I personally currently have:

Remington 870 20 ga - scope
Tristar Model 333 O/U 12 ga
Winchester Model 1300 Home Defense 12 ga
CVA Optima .50 cal. inline muzzle loader - scope
Fox River .50 cal. traditional muzzle loader
Henry .22 - scope
Marlin .22 WMR magnum





Guns previously owned:

American Arms .17 HMR derringer
CVA Wolf .50 cal. inline muzzle loader
Savage .22 semi-auto
another Remington 870 20 gauge

[GETNLWR]

Quote: Originally Posted by 2Xtreme

I got it used for 540!

Not the greatest deal, But definatly not bad either.

I bought my BiTone 229 for $400 about 2 years ago.

If the trigger fit my Sig 2022, I would consider it for shock value and thats it. My 2022 is all black, with no thing to distinguish it. I think It might look "cool" it makes some guns alot easier to sell to a younger crowd. However one problem is that the younger crowd is not always who you "should" sell to.

[2Xtreme]

regular price was 690...but i saw it at a show and the price they had it for was 540 maybe because of the location...i live in Miami, Fl...i dunno! but i like it cant wait to go to the range

[GETNLWR]

Quote: Originally Posted by 2Xtreme

regular price was 690...but i saw it at a show and the price they had it for was 540 maybe because of the location...i live in Miami, Fl...i dunno! but i like it cant wait to go to the range

i didnt Say it was a bad price...

Sometimes you find good deals at shows sometimes you dont.

540 aint bad by anymeans.

[dngrous_dime]

Okay, I've skimmed through the thread, and run a few searches to no avail.
Seems as if this thread is geared mostly towards personal defense and shotguns, but I have a question on a big game/target shootin rifle reccommendation.
MC Sports has a Mossberg 100 ATR in .270 Winchester on sale right now with a synthetic stock for $219, reg price $299. For another $29, it would also include a bore sight, scope rings, and a Barska 3-9x40 cheapie scope.

So, for $248 + tax, I'd have a rifle with everything I need to shoot, except a sling and swivels, and a couple boxes of ammo.

Opinions of that gun? I'm on a tight budget, and I want to get it before the end of the year. (sale ends on 12/31)

I'd be using it primarily for target shooting, and then possibly on a feral hog hunt in Georgia, and I may take a deer or two if the opportunity presents itself while there....
I have little to no interest in deerhunting in this area, since rifle season is just plain too cold for me to sit on my ass in a snowbank and wait.

http://www.luckysgunsandtackle.com/i..._id=3&cat_id=9

(same rifle, different scope)

[GETNLWR]

Quote: Originally Posted by dngrous_dime

Okay, I've skimmed through the thread, and run a few searches to no avail.
Seems as if this thread is geared mostly towards personal defense and shotguns, but I have a question on a big game/target shootin rifle reccommendation.
MC Sports has a Mossberg 100 ATR in .270 Winchester on sale right now with a synthetic stock for $219, reg price $299. For another $29, it would also include a bore sight, scope rings, and a Barska 3-9x40 cheapie scope.

So, for $248 + tax, I'd have a rifle with everything I need to shoot, except a sling and swivels, and a couple boxes of ammo.

Opinions of that gun? I'm on a tight budget, and I want to get it before the end of the year. (sale ends on 12/31)

I'd be using it primarily for target shooting, and then possibly on a feral hog hunt in Georgia, and I may take a deer or two if the opportunity presents itself while there....
I have little to no interest in deerhunting in this area, since rifle season is just plain too cold for me to sit on my ass in a snowbank and wait.

http://www.luckysgunsandtackle.com/i..._id=3&cat_id=9

(same rifle, different scope)

This is the right thread, Its also the only thread. Let me go gather some technical info for you to help make a good reccomendation.

back in a few...








Here we go... I am going to get technical here... sooooooooo...... ENJOY. see the bottom for my explenation and reccomendation.



Rifle Trajectory Table
By Chuck Hawks


For a much expanded version of this table showing a great many more cartridges and loads including British, European, wildcat, obsolescent American and proprietary calibers, see the "Expanded Rifle Trajectory Table" on the Tables, Charts and Lists Page.
In order to hit a distant target a rifle must be correctly sighted-in, and to accomplish that the shooter must have some working knowledge of the bullet's trajectory. Sighting-in a hunting rifle to hit a certain number of inches high at 100 yards (or 100 meters) maximizes the point blank range of the rifle and cartridge and is superior to zeroing at a fixed distance like 200 yards. This system maximizes the distance in which no "hold over" is necessary. Of course, the actual distance the bullet should hit above the point of aim at 100 yards (or 100 meters, which is about 108 yards) varies with the individual caliber and load.
The table below is designed to serve as a starting point from which a shooter can work. Used as such it can save a lot of trial and error experimentation. Of course, no trajectory table can possibly cover all loads for all calibers in all rifles. So after sighting-in, always check your individual rifle at various ranges to see how close its trajectory comes to the published data. (It may well vary.) This trajectory table can also serve as a comparative tool, allowing the reader to compare the trajectories of different cartridges or loads.
The trajectories in the table below were calculated for a maximum bullet rise of 1.5 inches above the line of sight for all small game and varmint loads, and three inches above the line of sight for all big game loads. In ballistics catalogs the point of maximum bullet rise is often called the mid-range trajectory, or sometimes the maximum ordinate. In the table below I used the term "mid-range trajectory," abbreviated "MRT."
A maximum bullet rise of 1.5 inches is appropriate for shooting small animals, as they present a small target, particularly if head shots are necessary. Allowing a greater mid-range trajectory might result in shooting over an animal at an intermediate distance.
A maximum rise of 3 inches is appropriate for hunting the smaller species of big game, creatures from perhaps 75 pounds to 150 pounds on the hoof, which typically have a kill zone of about 8 inches from top to bottom. More mid-range rise can be accepted when hunting larger animals (a 4 inch MRT might be appropriate when hunting mule deer, for example), but if a mixed bag hunt for larger and smaller species is envisioned, then the 3 inch rise used for this table is probably safer. A 3 inch MRT also allows for a little bit of human error, which is probably a good thing when shooting in the field.
The Maximum Point Blank Range (MPBR), which is shown in the last column of the table below, is the distance at which the bullet falls 3 inches below the line of sight. Thus between the muzzle and the distance given as the MPBR, the bullet never strays more than 3 inches above or below the line of sight (1.5 inches for varmint loads).
Most of the loads below are similar to popular factory loads for the selected cartridges. All trajectories were calculated for a rifle with a low mounted telescopic sight of moderate size whose line of sight is 1.5 inches above the bore axis of the barrel. If your scope is not 1.5 inches over the bore, and most scopes with oversize objectives require higher mounts, your trajectory will vary from those given below. All trajectory figures are rounded off to one decimal place. While environmental factors such as altitude and ambient air temperature affect trajectory, their effect is relatively minor. For the record, this table was calculated for an air temperature of 60 degrees F and an altitude of 1000 feet. The following data was taken from various sources including reloading manuals and the online Ballistics Calculator provided by BigGameInfo.
To save space, the following abbreviations are used in the table below: Wb = Weight of bullet (in grains); MV = Muzzle Velocity (in feet per second); BC = Ballistic Coefficient; MRT = Mid-Range Trajectory; yards = yds.; inches = "; MPBR = Maximum Point Blank Range; BT = Ballistic Tip; FP = Flat Point, HP = Hollow Point; RN = Round Nose; Sp = Spitzer; SP = Spire Point; SSp = Semi-Spitzer.


.17 HMR (17 SP at 2550).123+1.5"-5.5"1.5"@100165
.204 Ruger (33 BT at 4225).185+1.1"+1.0"1.5"@150275
.22 LR (40 HP at 1255).100-3.0"-40.9"1.5"@4590
.22 WMR (40 HP at 1910).100+0.5"-19.0"1.5"@65123
.222 Rem. (50 Sp at 3140).220+1.4"-0.4"1.5"@118222
.223 Rem. (45 Sp at 3550).167+1.4"+0.2"1.5"@130235
.223 Rem. (55 SP at 3240).235+1.4"+/- 0"1.5"@120230
.22-250 Rem. (55 SP at 3600).235+1.3"+0.6"1.5"@135254
.220 Swift (55 SP at 3800).235+1.2"+0.9"1.5"@140264
.223 WSSM (55 SP at 3800).235+1.2"+0.9"1.5"@140264
.243 Win. (80 Sp at 3350).255+1.3"+0.2"1.5"@125237
.243 Win. (100 Sp at 2960).351+2.6"+1.9"3"@140283
6mm Rem. (100 Sp at 3100).351+2.5"+2.2"3"@150296
.243 WSSM (100 Sp at 3100).351+2.5"+2.2"3"@150296
6x62mm Freres (100 Sp at 3300).351+2.4"+2.5"3"@150312
.240 Wby. Mag. (100 Sp at 3400).351+2.4"+2.6"3"@160322
.257 Roberts (120 Sp at 2780).391+2.7"+1.6"3"@125271
.25 WSSM (120 Sp at 2990).391+2.5"+2.0"3"@145291
.25-06 Rem. (120 Sp at 2990).391+2.5"+2.0"3"@145291
.257 Wby. Mag. (120 Sp at 3305).391+2.4"+2.5"3"@155317
6.5x55 (140 Sp at 2645).435+2.7"+1.2"3"@125260
.260 Rem. (140 Sp at 2750).435+2.7"+1.6"3"@125271
6.5mm Rem. Mag. (120 Sp at 3210).433+2.4"+2.5"3"@150312
6.5x68 S (140 Sp at 2990).435+2.6"+2.1"3"@150294
.264 Win. Mag. (140 Sp at 3100).435+2.5"+2.3"3"@150303
6.8mm Rem. SPC (115 Sp at 2800).325+2.6"+1.3"3"@130267
.270 Win. (130 Sp at 3140).416+2.5"+2.4"3"@150305
.270 Win. (150 Sp at 2900).481+2.6"+2.0"3"@138287
.270 WSM (150 Sp at 3150).481+2.5"+2.4"3"@150311
.270 Wby. Mag. (150 Sp at 3245).481+2.4"+2.6"3"@160320
7x57 (140 BT at 2660).485+2.7"+1.3"3"@125264
7mm-08 Rem. (140 BT at 2860).485+2.6"+1.9"3"@140285
.280 Rem. (140 BT at 3000).485+2.6"+2.2"3"@150298
7mm SAUM (150 Sp at 3110).456+2.5"+2.3"3"@150305
7mm WSM (150 Sp at 3200).456+2.4"+2.5"3"@150314
7mm Rem. Mag. (150 Sp at 3110).456+2.5"+2.3"3"@150305
7mm Wby. Mag. (154 SP at 3260).433+2.4"+2.5"3"@150317
7mm Ultra Mag (160 Sp at 3200).475+2.4"+2.5"3"@150314
.30 Carbine (110 RN at 1990).144+2.8"-8.2"3"@85171
.30-30 Win. (150 FP at 2390).268+2.9"-0.6"3"@110225
.30-30 Win. (170 FP at 2200).304+2.9"-1.8"3"@105211
.300 Sav. (150 BT at 2630).435+2.8"+1.2"3"@125259
.308 Win. (150 BT at 2800).435+2.7"+1.7"3"@135275
.308 Win. (180 Sp at 2610).483+2.8"+1.2"3"@125259
.30-06 (150 BT at 2910).435+2.6"+2.0"3"@145287
.30-06 (180 Sp at 2700).483+2.7"+1.5"3"@125269
.300 SAUM (165 Sp at 3075).410+2.5"+2.3"3"@145300
.300 WSM (180 Sp at 2970).483+2.6"+2.2"3"@150294
.300 Win. Mag. (180 Sp at 3070).483+2.5"+2.3"3"@150303
.300 Wby. Mag. (180 Sp at 3250).483+2.4"+2.6"3"@155320
.300 Ultra Mag (180 Sp at 3250).483+2.4"+2.6"3"@155320
7.62x39 (123 Sp at 2365).292+2.9"-0.5"3"@110225
.303 Br. (150 Sp at 2723).411+2.8"+1.5"3"@13026
7.32 Spec. (170 FP at 2250).297+3.0"-1.3"3"@105215
8x57JS (200 Sp at 2650).426+2.8"+1.2"3"@125260
.325 WSM (180 Sp at 2975).394+2.6"+2.0"3"@140289
8x68 S (150 Sp at 3300).369+2.4"+2.5"3"@150316
.338-57 O'Connor (200 FP at 2400).200+2.9"-0.3"3"@110214
.338 Win. Mag. (200 BT at 2960).414+2.6"+2.1"3"@150289
.340 Wby. Mag. (250 Sp at 2941).473+2.6"+2.1"3"@150291
.338 Ultra Mag (250 Sp at 2860).473+2.7"+1.9"3"@140285
.357 Mag. (158 FP at 1830).158+2.7"-10.5"3"@85163
.35 Rem. (200 RN at 2080).180+2.9"-5.1"3"@93186
.35 Whelen (200 Sp at 2700).295+2.8"+1.0"3"@125254
.350 Rem. Mag. (200 Sp at 2775).295+2.7"+1.3"3"@1252609
.3x62 (270 SSp at 2550).361+2.8"+0.7"3"@125247
.375 H&H Mag. (270 SP at 2690).380+2.7"+1.3"3"@130260
.375 Ultra Mag (300 SP at 2800).398+2.7"+1.7"3"@125273
.378 Wby. Mag. (300 Sp at 2935).398+2.6"+2.0"3"@140285
.416 Rigby (400 RN at 2400).316+2.9"-0.1"3"@115231
.416 Rem. Mag. (400 RN at 2400).316+2.9"-0.1"3"@115231
.44 Rem. Mag. (240 FP at 1760).165+2.6"-11.6"3"@75159
.444 Marlin (240 FP at 2350).165+3.0"-2.6"3"@100203
.450 Marlin (350 RN at 2100).189+3.0"-4.5"3"@100189
.45-70 (300 HP at 1800).197+2.7"-9.2"3"@85166
.45-70 (405 FP at 1330).214+1.3"-22.9"3"@65131
.458 Win. Mag. (500 RN at 2100).295+3.0"-2.9"3"@100200
.460 Wby. Mag. (500 RN at 2600).295+2.8"+0.6"3"@116246

Ok now... if you want a nice inexpensive rifle that will do well...

First and formost... Make usre its free floated. Many inexpensive rifles are not, but some are, I think Mossberg might be, if my memory serves me correctly. Easy way to check is with a 1dollar bill. Fold the bill in half NOT like a hotdog bun. wrap it around the barrel and pinch the bill loosely slide it to the base of the barrel. if it stops anywhere along the way its no freefloated, or not freefloated correctly.

Second, make sure there is a nice target trigger avalible somewhere for it. Brownells.com is a good place to look, they have damned near everything for gun parts.

You may want to do a trigger upgrade down the road, that is why I suggest the above.

For caliber I reccomend a .308 it has the MOST avalble bullets and loads for it. It is a VERY FLAT shooting cartrige. If you didnt know already, FLAT is GOOD.

Second, have fun. Buy lots of ammo as soon as you can. It dosnt ever go down in price. It spikes like Gasoline, however ammo never drops.


ETA2, DONT GO CHEAP ON THE SCOPE! Good Glass is worth it. The scope I want to put on my target rifle is $900. ITS ALSO THE CHEAPER SCOPE OF THE ONES I LIKE

[2Xtreme]

Quote: Originally Posted by GETNLWR

i didnt Say it was a bad price...

Sometimes you find good deals at shows sometimes you dont.

540 aint bad by anymeans.

nah, its cool! I just thought it was a good deal since it was already marked down 150, and before i bought it went online to see the prices, i think regular price is like 900 for new. Heh...i guess ill research more when its time for then next one...but i really liked this one...everyone has said its a great gun, and the owner of teh shop even told me its his favorite! thanks

[GETNLWR]

Quote: Originally Posted by 2Xtreme

nah, its cool! I just thought it was a good deal since it was already marked down 150, and before i bought it went online to see the prices, i think regular price is like 900 for new. Heh...i guess ill research more when its time for then next one...but i really liked this one...everyone has said its a great gun, and the owner of teh shop even told me its his favorite! thanks

Many Shop employees and owners will say that to help make a sale...

But, you did get a great price on it none the less.

NOW GO SHOOT IT!

900 my ass... only a dumb ass would pay MSRP for a gun.

new in box $750MAX even thats pushing it.

[2Xtreme]

he wasnt talking to me when he said it he was talking to another customer but i was thinking the same thing...the guy was buying a glock and also wanted to look at the sig when the owner said that...im in Miami and the Nascar final weekend is here, i have tickets and have had them every yr since they started down here...so this weekend is a no go as far as teh range but im hoping next weekend for sure, depending on how thanksgiving goes!

quick question...i bought winchester ranger hollow points when i bought the gun, but they had ran out of their cheap ammo for the range and exc...i heard people say that you can get cheap ammo at walmart, is this true? and if so what should i get? w/e ever is the cheapest for my gun?