Amerika the Farked

[The Master]

Yep, the US taxpayer just became owners in Ford, GM and Chrysler.

God help us.



Thanks to the Conservative Leader that is only looking to save face instead of going down as looking as the one who let it happen.

Why can they not allow them to go into bankruptcy already. Sheesh

http://www.iwastaken.com/forum/break...ilout-334.html

[The Master]

Excuse me, but I made a mistake. Ford is not taking any of these funds....but they are looking at merging with Chrysler.

[BlkS10Kid2002]

Well atleast the 2010 camaro will hit the streets... i do agree that they need to let them go into bankrupt... they just see that thousands of jobs will be lost if it happens but it will break the union ties and actually allow them to make cars and trucks more like the foreign automakers who are still selling cars in this economy...

[chevrunner21]

I thought it was gm and chryslet merging, atleast thats what i kept hearing??

[The Master]

It was.

Now Ford is looking at Chrysler

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/12/27/s...sler-to-merge/

[chevrunner21]

ooh did not know that.

[The Master]

edited post and added link to autoblog showing that

[The Griff]

And they are playing the old "BAIT AND SWITCH" card. Pulling the funds from the original 700billion bailout. Congress was right to shoot this down. I dont know what Bush is thinking. My approval of him in the last few months has dropped and this will not help any. Not how I would have wanted to go out as president.

[Droppedime08]

Watch out!

[The Griff]

C'mon now, let's keep it in Christmas spirit.



Edit:Holiday Spirit*

[Kneegra]

sorry if this has been discussed before but why is it up to the U.S. Government to bail these companies out when these companies didnt give a **** what the government thought when they decided to close down factories in the U.S. and move them to canada and mexico? i live in a city where GM used to have plants everywhere you looked. there is nothing left in this city after they decided to move out.

[leadsled2020]

Quote: Originally Posted by Kneegra

sorry if this has been discussed before but why is it up to the U.S. Government to bail these companies out when these companies didnt give a **** what the government thought when they decided to close down factories in the U.S. and move them to canada and mexico? i live in a city where GM used to have plants everywhere you looked. there is nothing left in this city after they decided to move out.

look above

Quote: Originally Posted by BlkS10Kid2002

..... i do agree that they need to let them go into bankrupt... they just see that thousands of jobs will be lost if it happens but it will break the union ties and actually allow them to make cars and trucks more like the foreign automakers who are still selling cars in this economy...

[droppedss]

yup total bullshit.

[Wrkn prgs]

Where's my flag at?

[orangesonoma]

Quote: Originally Posted by jakethegriff

C'mon now, let's keep it in Christmas spirit.



Edit:Holiday Spirit*

i almost shit my pants when i saw that on tv...i wish he had hit him....

[van_wilder]

i knew this shit was going to happen... any bets on who has their hand out for money next?

[98SS]

If anything good is coming out of this crisis, it's that "[Bush] called for elimination of a "jobs bank" program - negotiated by the United Auto Workers and the companies — under which laid-off workers receive unemployment benefits and supplemental pay from their companies for 48 weeks. If they remain laid off beyond that, they move to a jobs bank in which the company provides about 95% of their pay and benefits. Until the most recent contract, people could remain in the jobs bank for years. Early this month, the UAW agreed to suspend the program."

48 weeks and then you still get 95% of your pay and benefits after that? Someone please tell me that you don't seriously believe the UAW didn't help bring this upon us.

[98SS]

Quote: Originally Posted by The Master

God help us.

Since when do you believe in God or truly care what Amerika is suffering from?

[van_wilder]

Quote: Originally Posted by 98SS

Since when do you believe in God or truly care what Amerika is suffering from?

that just goes to show how ****ed we really are!

[The Master]

Quote: Originally Posted by 98SS

Since when do you believe in God or truly care what Amerika is suffering from?

I dont on either count. LOL

[98SS]

[leadsled2020]

Quote: Originally Posted by van_wilder

i knew this shit was going to happen... any bets on who has their hand out for money next?

phone companies or computer companies....

[ChicagoJoe]

Found this on another forum I visit. It is a letter from the owner a Ford dealer in the Pittsburgh area.


As I watch the coverage of the fate of the U.S. auto industry, one alarming and frustrating fact hits me right between the eyes. The fate of our nation's economic survival is in the hands of some congressmen who are completely out of touch and act without knowledge of an industry that affects almost every person in our nation. The same lack of knowledge is shared with many journalists whom are irresponsible when influencing the opinion of millions of viewers.

Sen. Richard Shelby of Alabama has doomed the industry, calling it a dinosaur. No Mr. Shelby, you are the dinosaur, with ideas stuck in the '70s, '80s and '90s. You and the uninformed journalist and senators that hold onto myths that are not relevant in today's world.

When you say that the Big Three build vehicles nobody wants to buy, you must have overlooked that GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the U.S. and Ford outsold Honda by 850,000 and Nissan by 1.2 million in the U.S. GM was the world's No. 1 automaker beating Toyota by 3,000 units.

When you claim inferior quality comes from the Big Three, did you realize that Chevy makes the Malibu and Ford makes the Fusion that were both rated over the Camry and Accord by J.D. Power independent survey on initial quality? Did you bother to read the Consumer Report that rated Ford on par with good Japanese automakers.

Did you realize Big Three's gas guzzlers include the 33 mpg Malibu that beats the Accord. And for '09 Ford introduces the Hybrid Fusion whose 39 mpg is the best midsize, beating the Camry Hybrid. Ford's Focus beats the Corolla and Chevy's Cobalt beats the Civic.

When you ask how many times are we going to bail them out you must be referring to 1980. The only Big Three bailout was Chrysler, who paid back $1 billion, plus interest. GM and Ford have never received government aid.

When you criticize the Big Three for building so many pickups, surely you've noticed the attempts Toyota and Nissan have made spending billions to try to get a piece of that pie. Perhaps it bothers you that for 31 straight years Ford's F-Series has been the best selling vehicle. Ford and GM have dominated this market and when you see the new '09 F-150 you'll agree this won't change soon.

Did you realize that both GM and Ford offer more hybrid models than Nissan or Honda. Between 2005 and 2007, Ford alone has invested more than $22 billion in research and development of technologies such as Eco Boost, flex fuel, clean diesel, hybrids, plug in hybrids and hydrogen cars.

It's 2008 and the quality of the vehicles coming out of Detroit are once again the best in the world.

Perhaps Sen. Shelby isn't really that blind. Maybe he realizes the quality shift to American. Maybe it's the fact that his state of Alabama has given so much to land factories from Honda, Hyundai and Mercedes Benz that he is more concerned about their continued growth than he is about the people of our country. Sen. Shelby's disdain for "government subsidies" is very hypocritical. In the early '90s he was the driving force behind a $253 million incentive package to Mercedes. Plus, Alabama agreed to purchase 2,500 vehicles from Mercedes. While the bridge loan the Big Three is requesting will be paid back, Alabama 's $180,000-plus per job was pure incentive. Sen. Shelby, not only are you out of touch, you are a self-serving hypocrite, who is prepared to ruin our nation because of lack of knowledge and lack of due diligence in making your opinions and decisions.

After 9/11, the Detroit Three and Harley Davidson gave $40 million-plus emergency vehicles to the recovery efforts. What was given to the 9/11 relief effort by the Asian and European Auto Manufactures? $0 Nada. Zip!

We live in a world of free trade, world economy and we have not been able to produce products as cost efficiently. While the governments of other auto producing nations subsidize their automakers, our government may be ready to force its demise. While our automakers have paid union wages, benefits and legacy debt, our Asian competitors employ cheap labor. We are at an extreme disadvantage in production cost. Although many UAW concessions begin in 2010, many lawmakers think it's not enough.

Some point the blame to corporate management. I would like to speak of Ford Motor Co. The company has streamlined by reducing our workforce by 51,000 since 2005, closing 17 plants and cutting expenses. Product and future product is excellent and the company is focused on one Ford. This is a company poised for success. Ford product quality and corporate management have improved light years since the nightmare of Jacques Nasser. Thank you Alan Mulally and the best auto company management team in the business.

The financial collapse caused by the secondary mortgage fiasco and the greed of Wall Street has led to a $700 billion bailout of the industry that created the problem. AIG spent nearly $1 million on three company excursions to lavish resorts and hunting destinations. Paulson is saying no to $250 billion foreclosure relief and the whole thing is a mess. So when the Big Three ask for 4 percent of that of the $700 billion, $25 billion to save the country's largest industry, there is obviously oppositions. But does it make sense to reward the culprits of the problem with $700 billion unconditionally, and ignore the victims?

As a Ford dealer, I feel our portion of the $25 billion will never be touched and is not necessary. Ford currently has $29 billion of liquidity. However, the effect of a bankruptcy by GM will hurt the suppliers we all do business with. A Chapter 11 bankruptcy by any manufacture would cost retirees their health care and retirements. Chances are GM would recover from Chapter 11 with a better business plan with much less expense. So who foots the bill if GM or all three go Chapter 11? All that extra health care, unemployment, loss of tax base and some forgiven debt goes back to the taxpayer, us. With no chance of repayment, this would be much worse than a loan with the intent of repayment.

So while it is debatable whether a loan or Chapter 11 is better for the Big Three, a $25 billion loan is definitely better for the taxpayers and the economy of our country.

So I'll end where I began on the quality of the products of Detroit Before you, Mr. or Ms. Journalist continue to misinform the American public and turn them against one of the great industries that helped build this nation, I must ask you one question. Before you, Mr. or Madam Congressman vote to end health care and retirement benefits for 1 million retirees, eliminate 2.5 million of our nation's jobs, lose the technology that will lead us in the future and create an economic disaster including hundreds of billions of tax dollars lost, I ask this question not in the rhetorical sense.

I ask it in the sincere, literal way.

Can you tell me, have you driven a Ford lately?

Jim Jackson
Elkins

[chadzx11]

Quote: Originally Posted by The Master

Yep, the US taxpayer just became owners in Ford, GM and Chrysler.

Thanks to the Conservative Leader that is only looking to save face instead of going down as looking as the one who let it happen.

It was gonna happen anyway. All the money that those unions give obama and the other commies? Yeah, he would have taken care of them, too.

Bush turned out to be quite the communist, too, didn't he?

What a bunch of assholes in DC AND Detroit AND New York (rich bank ****sticks!).

What kind of moron is gonna buy a car from a company that in this deep pile of doo doo?

[98SS]

Quote: Originally Posted by ChicagoJoe

It is a letter from the owner a Ford dealer in the Pittsburgh area.

Excellent letter, but I hate idiots.
http://elkinsfordland.dealerconnection.com/?lang=en

[chadzx11]

Quote: Originally Posted by jakethegriff

C'mon now, let's keep it in Christmas spirit.



Edit:Holiday Spirit*

You KNOW he wanted to stick his thumbs in his ears, wave his fingers, and go nah-nah-na-boo-boo at that guy. Shoe guy, OTOH, is just glad he didn't get shot.

If an AMERICAN threw that shoe, he'd be dead.

[chadzx11]

Quote: Originally Posted by 98SS

48 weeks and then you still get 95% of your pay and benefits after that? Someone please tell me that you don't seriously believe the UAW didn't help bring this upon us.

Tell me about it. I am on medical leave and I get like a quarter of what I was making a week, and only 12 weeks worth at that........

I am itching to go back to work. I'm tired of this vacation, and this busted ass arm, too.

[hds1o]

When you claim inferior quality comes from the Big Three, did you realize that Chevy makes the Malibu and Ford makes the Fusion that were both rated over the Camry and Accord by J.D. Power independent survey on initial quality? Did you bother to read the Consumer Report that rated Ford on par with good Japanese automakers.

Did you realize Big Three's gas guzzlers include the 33 mpg Malibu that beats the Accord. And for '09 Ford introduces the Hybrid Fusion whose 39 mpg is the best midsize, beating the Camry Hybrid. Ford's Focus beats the Corolla and Chevy's Cobalt beats the Civic.


I understand where he is coming from, and makes some good points...but really, on the quality side of it, these are fairly new cars.How many piles of crap have the big 3 put out over the years. I've owned nothing but domestics, and I know what I'm getting into when I buy one. Most people dont feel like dealing with dumb problems (fixing a 3rd door rattle with electrical tape) so buy a Toyota or Honda knowing they can go over 100,000 with just changing the oil and tires. Then theres the styling, sure the Fusion and Malibu are well made, but most people I talk to think they look like hell.

[98SS]

Quote: Originally Posted by hds1o

sure the Fusion and Malibu are well made, but most people I talk to think they look like hell.

I prefer both of the domestics over the new Camry and Civic models.

[Baja Blazer 85]

The only reason why congress shot down the bailout plan was so that if any of them runs for prez, they can go back to the public and say.
"Ooh, look at me! I'm much better than that other candidate because I shot down the auto industry bailout plan."

They actually wanted it and knew that Bush would go through with it anyways, so it wouldn't matter if they shot it down. They really don't care if we have to pay higher taxes, even if they did shoot it down. They just wanted attention, recognition, and a good voting record. I'm sure they would have accepted it if their reputation wasn't at stake.

Personally, I dont mind that the big 3 is being bailed out. As long as they put the money to good use unlike the banks that we tried to help
lol rant off

[The Master]

Quote: Originally Posted by ChicagoJoe

Found this on another forum I visit. It is a letter from the owner a Ford dealer in the Pittsburgh area.

I know it is not you, but I will respond.

Quote: Originally Posted by ChicagoJoe

As I watch the coverage of the fate of the U.S. auto industry, one alarming and frustrating fact hits me right between the eyes. The fate of our nation's economic survival is in the hands of some congressmen who are completely out of touch and act without knowledge of an industry that affects almost every person in our nation. The same lack of knowledge is shared with many journalists whom are irresponsible when influencing the opinion of millions of viewers.

This coming from a man that lives off of the income generated by the sales of such cars.

Quote: Originally Posted by ChicagoJoe

Sen. Richard Shelby of Alabama has doomed the industry, calling it a dinosaur. No Mr. Shelby, you are the dinosaur, with ideas stuck in the '70s, '80s and '90s. You and the uninformed journalist and senators that hold onto myths that are not relevant in today's world.

Really? So you can name out a few things down on the bottom about a few brands and you think this is supposed to apply across the board? Hardly.

I will elaborate.

Quote: Originally Posted by ChicagoJoe

When you say that the Big Three build vehicles nobody wants to buy, you must have overlooked that GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the U.S.

And yet GM lost money and Toyota made a profit. In 2007 GM sold 9.369 million vehicles, compared to Toyota's 9.366 million; but GM lost 34billion and Toyota earned 17billion.

So GM sold more cars than Toyota world wide by a total of 3k. The sales in the US was 1.2 million, because Toyota sell's more in the Asia Pacific region similar to how GM does in the US. Ironic how that works.

Quote: Originally Posted by ChicagoJoe

and Ford outsold Honda by 850,000

Another comparison of apples to oranges. How many Fords sold in the APAC region compared to Honda?

Quote: Originally Posted by ChicagoJoe

and Nissan by 1.2 million in the U.S.

Is this global or US? You really want to start using the totals and not regional data as clearly it can be askewed as you are doing.

Quote: Originally Posted by ChicagoJoe

GM was the world's No. 1 automaker beating Toyota by 3,000 units.

Yet, GM lost 34billion and Toyota earned 17billion. Explain that away. Sounds to me that they are useless and unproductive. Overpaid workers, too much bs overhead and ineffectively running a company are a few things that come to mind, just off the top of my head.

Quote: Originally Posted by ChicagoJoe

When you claim inferior quality comes from the Big Three, did you realize that Chevy makes the Malibu and Ford makes the Fusion that were both rated over the Camry and Accord by J.D. Power independent survey on initial quality?

AND how long did it take for this to happen? I recall that it has taken several years to finally play catch up with the Imports. That is the pathetic.

Quote: Originally Posted by ChicagoJoe

Did you bother to read the Consumer Report that rated Ford on par with good Japanese automakers.

Again, how long has this taken? The quality of Ford has been far greater overseas than that of US born vehicles. Odd that GM quality in Brazil and German born vehicles are far better than that which is achieved by the US vehicles even today.

Care to explain why that happens and nothing has been done to change the quality here?

Quote: Originally Posted by ChicagoJoe

Did you realize Big Three's gas guzzlers include the 33 mpg Malibu that beats the Accord. And for '09 Ford introduces the Hybrid Fusion whose 39 mpg is the best midsize, beating the Camry Hybrid. Ford's Focus beats the Corolla and Chevy's Cobalt beats the Civic.

A few vehicles that are now made to meet new CAFE standards. Odd how the Imports have been beating Future CAFE standards for far longer.

Why did it take so long? Ohh yea, increased gas prices that were showing their head back in 2004. Ohh NM, I know that is too logical to figure out.

Quote: Originally Posted by ChicagoJoe

When you ask how many times are we going to bail them out you must be referring to 1980. The only Big Three bailout was Chrysler, who paid back $1 billion, plus interest. GM and Ford have never received government aid.

Well that is fine and dandy. The facts are that all three are companies that are publicly traded and if they were any other industry would have filed Chapter 11 to restructure like several companies have been doing for a long while.

Quote: Originally Posted by ChicagoJoe

When you criticize the Big Three for building so many pickups, surely you've noticed the attempts Toyota and Nissan have made spending billions to try to get a piece of that pie. Perhaps it bothers you that for 31 straight years Ford's F-Series has been the best selling vehicle.

So you have a market share of a vehicle. WOW. That is an accomplishment. While Ford can make the best selling vehicle it sure does find it hard to sell anything else in the market that all the other Imports are beating to hell and back.

Now you can claim that Yota and Nissan have spent billions and that is all well and good. here is the bottom line. They already captured the car markets and were going after the truck markets now. If they did not they would be thought of as stupid. Sorta like Ford, GM and Chrysler are for wasting their energy and time on just building tucks and not innovating anything new.

Instead of trying to capture the other big3 truck markets that the Big3 have done and focused on innovation they would not be in the pickle they are in now.

DOHH

Quote: Originally Posted by ChicagoJoe

Ford and GM have dominated this market and when you see the new '09 F-150 you'll agree this won't change soon.

I have seen the 09 and there is nothing that impressive that would be worthwhile. In fact the new Dodge with the features it has is far greater possibility of taking the market.

Quote: Originally Posted by ChicagoJoe

Did you realize that both GM and Ford offer more hybrid models than Nissan or Honda. Between 2005 and 2007, Ford alone has invested more than $22 billion in research and development of technologies such as Eco Boost, flex fuel, clean diesel, hybrids, plug in hybrids and hydrogen cars.

Great. That is why more people bought the Prius over their models. Could it be the far greater gas mileage, far greater distance traveled on a charge, and better designs and features

Quote: Originally Posted by ChicagoJoe

It's 2008 and the quality of the vehicles coming out of Detroit are once again the best in the world.

Really? Which ones are these?

Quote: Originally Posted by ChicagoJoe

Perhaps Sen. Shelby isn't really that blind. Maybe he realizes the quality shift to American. Maybe it's the fact that his state of Alabama has given so much to land factories from Honda, Hyundai and Mercedes Benz that he is more concerned about their continued growth than he is about the people of our country. Sen. Shelby's disdain for "government subsidies" is very hypocritical. In the early '90s he was the driving force behind a $253 million incentive package to Mercedes.

So now he is biased due to the fact that his region of the country was poor and needed the growth. So now that it was given, like Detroit got back in the day, he is biased to the cause? hardly, but you have to grasp at things to feel better about it.

How many tax incentives have GM, Ford and Chrysler have and still have at many of the plants they own and operate today?

Why is it that when Ford, GM and Chrysler all did not get the incentives they decided to pull OUT of the US and start moving to Mexico where they did not have Unions to pay, wage levels to maintain and the other wonderful restrictions their working class put upon them.

So now when there are other automakers making money and able to maintain their respective economic regions they are up in and the US makers can not it is biasedness.

Tell that to the People of the regions where the big 3 shut down plant to support the Mexican families instead. Then we can discuss the disdain that you say is being placed upon them.

Quote: Originally Posted by ChicagoJoe

Plus, Alabama agreed to purchase 2,500 vehicles from Mercedes. While the bridge loan the Big Three is requesting will be paid back, Alabama 's $180,000-plus per job was pure incentive. Sen. Shelby, not only are you out of touch, you are a self-serving hypocrite, who is prepared to ruin our nation because of lack of knowledge and lack of due diligence in making your opinions and decisions.

Ironic that you can claim lack of DD and still spout off the rhetoric you have.
Ironic that you can claim out of touch when you fail to list the things that the Big3 have done and have gotten.
Ironic that you can claim self-serving hypocrite when you are nothing more than the very thing you are crying about.

Odd how you can be taking profit off of the big3 for your own personal gain and defend them in the same breath that you claim this of a Senator that is doing this for his constituents and the job holders of the region.

Quote: Originally Posted by ChicagoJoe

After 9/11, the Detroit Three and Harley Davidson gave $40 million-plus emergency vehicles to the recovery efforts. What was given to the 9/11 relief effort by the Asian and European Auto Manufactures? $0 Nada. Zip!

What could they give at the immediate time? I guess the cars/trucks that were not designed for this market as their EMS/Police and fire vehicles are designed on the RHD platform and not exported, nor are the vehicles they use for these vehicles. I guess in your hasty response you failed to remember such small things, let alone that it would takedays to engineer a set up to the US standards and we all know that the Unions would have cried a river of such things. I know, I know you will say they could have shipped over, but remember that in the first few days flights were canceled and to ship the vehicles over, be they are the RHD versions already made would have taken at minimum 3 weeks to arrive via ship at a close port. That would have been in in Houston or SC. Then transport of 2 - 4 days would have been even longer than the 2 - 4 day transport over to NY region.

Nah, that fact that the vehicles used by the EMS/First responders are already US made based vehicles that could be stripped down from standard vehicles to the consumers to the needs they had far easier is just too complex and logical than the time and effort to convert RHD to LHD or current production LHD vehicles to EMS/FR's..

Quote: Originally Posted by ChicagoJoe

We live in a world of free trade, world economy and we have not been able to produce products as cost efficiently.

Thank the union for that. I am sure the workers that are laid off who are collecting UE are thanking the very same people. I am sure they will thank the Union after their benis end and they get 95% of their pay from GM for not working too.

Quote: Originally Posted by ChicagoJoe

While the governments of other auto producing nations subsidize their automakers, our government may be ready to force its demise.

The very same govts run their banking and other industries too. They are Socialists. BUT oddly they do not subsidize the BIG3 in their countries....why not? Because the sales are not shared with the govt. When you have an interest in the outcome, such as income from the sales you have an interest in maintaining them. odd how that works.

Quote: Originally Posted by ChicagoJoe

While our automakers have paid union wages, benefits and legacy debt, our Asian competitors employ cheap labor. We are at an extreme disadvantage in production cost.

They also have a lower cost of living and carry far less debt than the average american auto worker, let alone the average worker itself. They also have a working class that wont complain about working for 20 an hour, unlike the US workers that need near 4 times that and the little things like TVs on the lines. Also, let us not forget that they have more robots working their lines and far fewer people needed. They actually pay their lower educated people that are working these very same jobs that the US workers are doing what they are worth. Last time I recalled it does not take much to sling the same part in a line for 8 hours a day for 50 times. Yep, sure is a job that is for the higher educated.

It sure does seem odd that a person that sits on the line doing the same repetitive thing 50 times a day 5 days a week should get more than a Teacher, First Responder, Nurse or someone that has to use their education and put their life on the line.

let us not forget how easy the UAW has made the lives of those Highschool Graduates that could not or did not want to do anything for themselves.

Quote: Originally Posted by ChicagoJoe

Although many UAW concessions begin in 2010, many lawmakers think it's not enough.

it is not.

Quote: Originally Posted by ChicagoJoe

Some point the blame to corporate management.

It has some to do with it.

Quote: Originally Posted by ChicagoJoe

I would like to speak of Ford Motor Co. The company has streamlined by reducing our workforce by 51,000 since 2005, closing 17 plants and cutting expenses.

Ford was losing market share worldwide.

Quote: Originally Posted by ChicagoJoe

Product and future product is excellent and the company is focused on one Ford. This is a company poised for success.

It would be if they would focus on ONE product line aka FORD and not all of it's affiliates.

Maybe if Ford starts looking at making the same products they do with the same quality from their divisions in Australia and Germany for the US market they could do better.

Even when Australia was in the Gas crunch they were selling more V8 performance cars than 4 bangers.

Quote: Originally Posted by ChicagoJoe

Ford product quality and corporate management have improved light years since the nightmare of Jacques Nasser.

Still not up to par to the Aussies or Europeans. You can thank Geoff Polities (Rest in Peace buddy...yes he was a personal friend of mine) for the turn around of the Australian Market when he was Veep there and the European market increases experienced before his death. A better run and better managed Corporate level and a corporate president that walked down on the floors and actually built some of the cars with the employees.

Nah, lets keep that separation and look of superiority they are doing here in the states.

Quote: Originally Posted by ChicagoJoe

Thank you Alan Mulally and the best auto company management team in the business.

Laughable as clearly you never worked with Geoff Polites or any of the real CEOs from Australia and Europe.

Quote: Originally Posted by ChicagoJoe

The financial collapse caused by the secondary mortgage fiasco and the greed of Wall Street has led to a $700 billion bailout of the industry that created the problem. AIG spent nearly $1 million on three company excursions to lavish resorts and hunting destinations. Paulson is saying no to $250 billion foreclosure relief and the whole thing is a mess. So when the Big Three ask for 4 percent of that of the $700 billion, $25 billion to save the country's largest industry, there is obviously oppositions. But does it make sense to reward the culprits of the problem with $700 billion unconditionally, and ignore the victims?

Let us recap what ALL OF THE BIG 3 HAVE DONE.

1. Closed plants in the US to move offshore to cut paying wages to the American workers.
2. The BIG 3 sold More cars than the Asian Manufacturers and LOST near 60b total while the big 3 Asian manufacturers who sold fewer cars made a combined 38b USD.
3. The big 3 wasted money by paying laid off workers 95% of their salary.
4. The big3 have just started to update their inventory to standards that have been explored and done by the Big 3 Asian companies for years.
5. Focused solely on Trucks and the Truck market instead of diversifying.
6. paid my buddies mom a 2500 bonus for what? Being retired from the company for over 15 years. This is the lowest bonus she has gotten.

Quote: Originally Posted by ChicagoJoe

As a Ford dealer, I feel our portion of the $25 billion will never be touched and is not necessary. Ford currently has $29 billion of liquidity. However, the effect of a bankruptcy by GM will hurt the suppliers we all do business with. A Chapter 11 bankruptcy by any manufacture would cost retirees their health care and retirements.

Maybe it should be looked at and renegotiated. Clearly, something should be done.

Quote: Originally Posted by ChicagoJoe

Chances are GM would recover from Chapter 11 with a better business plan with much less expense. So who foots the bill if GM or all three go Chapter 11?

Maybe the Highschoolers that could not make anything of themselves should have thought about this.

Ride out their UE until it expires and try to find a job if they are that lazy.

Or better yet, the economies that are affected should have tried to focus on diversifying their shit instead of relying on one market to sustain its self.


All our eggs in one basket only sets you up for failure

Quote: Originally Posted by ChicagoJoe

All that extra health care, unemployment, loss of tax base and some forgiven debt goes back to the taxpayer, us.

No it goes to the localities and not the nation. It would go to the nation if we bail them out. I suggest you figure it out.

Quote: Originally Posted by ChicagoJoe

With no chance of repayment, this would be much worse than a loan with the intent of repayment.

Either way it is doomed for failure and further destruction of what america really stands for. We are not govt run nor are we socialistic in nature. No need to move into that failure model.

Quote: Originally Posted by ChicagoJoe

So while it is debatable whether a loan or Chapter 11 is better for the Big Three, a $25 billion loan is definitely better for the taxpayers and the economy of our country.

So stinging out the ultimate outcome does what? Keep us in recession for far longer. Great model of hope you have there.

Quote: Originally Posted by ChicagoJoe

So I'll end where I began on the quality of the products of Detroit Before you, Mr. or Ms. Journalist continue to misinform the American public and turn them against one of the great industries that helped build this nation, I must ask you one question.

So lying about your product and using excerpts to sustain your failures only proves that you dont have a clue.

Quote: Originally Posted by ChicagoJoe

Before you, Mr. or Madam Congressman vote to end health care and retirement benefits for 1 million retirees, eliminate 2.5 million of our nation's jobs, lose the technology that will lead us in the future and create an economic disaster including hundreds of billions of tax dollars lost, I ask this question not in the rhetorical sense.

So spending billions to save the same amount does what? Ohh that is right...it causes the taxpayer to have to pay interest on the same money that could be used elsewhere to better the economy and not just ONE sector.

Quote: Originally Posted by ChicagoJoe

I ask it in the sincere, literal way.

I ask you to convey a message without the biasedness you have shown so far.

Quote: Originally Posted by ChicagoJoe

Can you tell me, have you driven a Ford lately?

Can you tell me why a Ford dealership wants to rape its following instead of providing the quality service people bought and paid for?

Quote: Originally Posted by ChicagoJoe

Jim Jackson

Ashole admin signing out. lol
Elkins[/quote]

[dickeydoo]

Wow dude, way to dissect that lol. I agree 100%, the big 3 have really screwed up this market. Looking at Europe and Australia, it shows that they can make good quality cars that the consumers want, but they choose not to here. Thanks a lot assholes...

[sdimeguy2007]

Quote: Originally Posted by The Master

I know it is not you, but I will respond.



This coming from a man that lives off of the income generated by the sales of such cars.



Really? So you can name out a few things down on the bottom about a few brands and you think this is supposed to apply across the board? Hardly.

I will elaborate.



And yet GM lost money and Toyota made a profit. In 2007 GM sold 9.369 million vehicles, compared to Toyota's 9.366 million; but GM lost 34billion and Toyota earned 17billion.

So GM sold more cars than Toyota world wide by a total of 3k. The sales in the US was 1.2 million, because Toyota sell's more in the Asia Pacific region similar to how GM does in the US. Ironic how that works.



Another comparison of apples to oranges. How many Fords sold in the APAC region compared to Honda?

holy shit dude, how long did it take you to do that??

Is this global or US? You really want to start using the totals and not regional data as clearly it can be askewed as you are doing.



Yet, GM lost 34billion and Toyota earned 17billion. Explain that away. Sounds to me that they are useless and unproductive. Overpaid workers, too much bs overhead and ineffectively running a company are a few things that come to mind, just off the top of my head.



AND how long did it take for this to happen? I recall that it has taken several years to finally play catch up with the Imports. That is the pathetic.



Again, how long has this taken? The quality of Ford has been far greater overseas than that of US born vehicles. Odd that GM quality in Brazil and German born vehicles are far better than that which is achieved by the US vehicles even today.

Care to explain why that happens and nothing has been done to change the quality here?



A few vehicles that are now made to meet new CAFE standards. Odd how the Imports have been beating Future CAFE standards for far longer.

Why did it take so long? Ohh yea, increased gas prices that were showing their head back in 2004. Ohh NM, I know that is too logical to figure out.



Well that is fine and dandy. The facts are that all three are companies that are publicly traded and if they were any other industry would have filed Chapter 11 to restructure like several companies have been doing for a long while.



So you have a market share of a vehicle. WOW. That is an accomplishment. While Ford can make the best selling vehicle it sure does find it hard to sell anything else in the market that all the other Imports are beating to hell and back.

Now you can claim that Yota and Nissan have spent billions and that is all well and good. here is the bottom line. They already captured the car markets and were going after the truck markets now. If they did not they would be thought of as stupid. Sorta like Ford, GM and Chrysler are for wasting their energy and time on just building tucks and not innovating anything new.

Instead of trying to capture the other big3 truck markets that the Big3 have done and focused on innovation they would not be in the pickle they are in now.

DOHH



I have seen the 09 and there is nothing that impressive that would be worthwhile. In fact the new Dodge with the features it has is far greater possibility of taking the market.




Great. That is why more people bought the Prius over their models. Could it be the far greater gas mileage, far greater distance traveled on a charge, and better designs and features



Really? Which ones are these?



So now he is biased due to the fact that his region of the country was poor and needed the growth. So now that it was given, like Detroit got back in the day, he is biased to the cause? hardly, but you have to grasp at things to feel better about it.

How many tax incentives have GM, Ford and Chrysler have and still have at many of the plants they own and operate today?

Why is it that when Ford, GM and Chrysler all did not get the incentives they decided to pull OUT of the US and start moving to Mexico where they did not have Unions to pay, wage levels to maintain and the other wonderful restrictions their working class put upon them.

So now when there are other automakers making money and able to maintain their respective economic regions they are up in and the US makers can not it is biasedness.

Tell that to the People of the regions where the big 3 shut down plant to support the Mexican families instead. Then we can discuss the disdain that you say is being placed upon them.



Ironic that you can claim lack of DD and still spout off the rhetoric you have.
Ironic that you can claim out of touch when you fail to list the things that the Big3 have done and have gotten.
Ironic that you can claim self-serving hypocrite when you are nothing more than the very thing you are crying about.

Odd how you can be taking profit off of the big3 for your own personal gain and defend them in the same breath that you claim this of a Senator that is doing this for his constituents and the job holders of the region.



What could they give at the immediate time? I guess the cars/trucks that were not designed for this market as their EMS/Police and fire vehicles are designed on the RHD platform and not exported, nor are the vehicles they use for these vehicles. I guess in your hasty response you failed to remember such small things, let alone that it would takedays to engineer a set up to the US standards and we all know that the Unions would have cried a river of such things. I know, I know you will say they could have shipped over, but remember that in the first few days flights were canceled and to ship the vehicles over, be they are the RHD versions already made would have taken at minimum 3 weeks to arrive via ship at a close port. That would have been in in Houston or SC. Then transport of 2 - 4 days would have been even longer than the 2 - 4 day transport over to NY region.

Nah, that fact that the vehicles used by the EMS/First responders are already US made based vehicles that could be stripped down from standard vehicles to the consumers to the needs they had far easier is just too complex and logical than the time and effort to convert RHD to LHD or current production LHD vehicles to EMS/FR's..



Thank the union for that. I am sure the workers that are laid off who are collecting UE are thanking the very same people. I am sure they will thank the Union after their benis end and they get 95% of their pay from GM for not working too.



The very same govts run their banking and other industries too. They are Socialists. BUT oddly they do not subsidize the BIG3 in their countries....why not? Because the sales are not shared with the govt. When you have an interest in the outcome, such as income from the sales you have an interest in maintaining them. odd how that works.



They also have a lower cost of living and carry far less debt than the average american auto worker, let alone the average worker itself. They also have a working class that wont complain about working for 20 an hour, unlike the US workers that need near 4 times that and the little things like TVs on the lines. Also, let us not forget that they have more robots working their lines and far fewer people needed. They actually pay their lower educated people that are working these very same jobs that the US workers are doing what they are worth. Last time I recalled it does not take much to sling the same part in a line for 8 hours a day for 50 times. Yep, sure is a job that is for the higher educated.

It sure does seem odd that a person that sits on the line doing the same repetitive thing 50 times a day 5 days a week should get more than a Teacher, First Responder, Nurse or someone that has to use their education and put their life on the line.

let us not forget how easy the UAW has made the lives of those Highschool Graduates that could not or did not want to do anything for themselves.



it is not.



It has some to do with it.



Ford was losing market share worldwide.



It would be if they would focus on ONE product line aka FORD and not all of it's affiliates.

Maybe if Ford starts looking at making the same products they do with the same quality from their divisions in Australia and Germany for the US market they could do better.

Even when Australia was in the Gas crunch they were selling more V8 performance cars than 4 bangers.



Still not up to par to the Aussies or Europeans. You can thank Geoff Polities (Rest in Peace buddy...yes he was a personal friend of mine) for the turn around of the Australian Market when he was Veep there and the European market increases experienced before his death. A better run and better managed Corporate level and a corporate president that walked down on the floors and actually built some of the cars with the employees.

Nah, lets keep that separation and look of superiority they are doing here in the states.



Laughable as clearly you never worked with Geoff Polites or any of the real CEOs from Australia and Europe.




Let us recap what ALL OF THE BIG 3 HAVE DONE.

1. Closed plants in the US to move offshore to cut paying wages to the American workers.
2. The BIG 3 sold More cars than the Asian Manufacturers and LOST near 60b total while the big 3 Asian manufacturers who sold fewer cars made a combined 38b USD.
3. The big 3 wasted money by paying laid off workers 95% of their salary.
4. The big3 have just started to update their inventory to standards that have been explored and done by the Big 3 Asian companies for years.
5. Focused solely on Trucks and the Truck market instead of diversifying.
6. paid my buddies mom a 2500 bonus for what? Being retired from the company for over 15 years. This is the lowest bonus she has gotten.



Maybe it should be looked at and renegotiated. Clearly, something should be done.




Maybe the Highschoolers that could not make anything of themselves should have thought about this.

Ride out their UE until it expires and try to find a job if they are that lazy.

Or better yet, the economies that are affected should have tried to focus on diversifying their shit instead of relying on one market to sustain its self.


All our eggs in one basket only sets you up for failure




No it goes to the localities and not the nation. It would go to the nation if we bail them out. I suggest you figure it out.






Either way it is doomed for failure and further destruction of what america really stands for. We are not govt run nor are we socialistic in nature. No need to move into that failure model.




So stinging out the ultimate outcome does what? Keep us in recession for far longer. Great model of hope you have there.




So lying about your product and using excerpts to sustain your failures only proves that you dont have a clue.



So spending billions to save the same amount does what? Ohh that is right...it causes the taxpayer to have to pay interest on the same money that could be used elsewhere to better the economy and not just ONE sector.




I ask you to convey a message without the biasedness you have shown so far.




Can you tell me why a Ford dealership wants to rape its following instead of providing the quality service people bought and paid for?




Ashole admin signing out. lol
Elkins

[/quote]

[The Master]

yep I am a dick. lol

[The Master]

Just to throw more fuel on the fire for this asshole.

A few google searches returned some interesting things... too bad he is not here to argue this shit out.

Yes, I know chicagojoe it is not you...

Quote: Originally Posted by ChicagoJoe

Perhaps Sen. Shelby isn't really that blind. Maybe he realizes the quality shift to American. Maybe it's the fact that his state of Alabama has given so much to land factories from Honda, Hyundai and Mercedes Benz that he is more concerned about their continued growth than he is about the people of our country. Sen. Shelby's disdain for "government subsidies" is very hypocritical. In the early '90s he was the driving force behind a $253 million incentive package to Mercedes. Plus, Alabama agreed to purchase 2,500 vehicles from Mercedes. While the bridge loan the Big Three is requesting will be paid back, Alabama 's $180,000-plus per job was pure incentive. Sen. Shelby, not only are you out of touch, you are a self-serving hypocrite, who is prepared to ruin our nation because of lack of knowledge and lack of due diligence in making your opinions and decisions.

Let's just see what the big 3 have gotten...

Lansing, MI 1999. Michigan John Engler gives GM a $98.9 million incentive package to build a new plant. Governor Engler justified the help: "The GM project will provide more than $2.163 billion in revenue to the state over the life of the agreement, resulting in a net positive gain to the state of over $2.090 billion after the MEGA credit. The project is expected to generate over $27 billion in personal income.

"While this package of incentives is large, the benefit to the community and to the state is much larger," Engler said. "For every dollar we invest in this project, we will collect more than $21 dollars in new tax revenue. This is a wonderful return on investment on a project worth fighting for."

http://www.state.mi.us/migov/gov/Pre.../GMMEGAPR.html

Now now, is that not an incentive just like you claimed was given to Mercedes?

How about...

Warren, MI 2004. Michigan (Jennifer Granholm) gave GM and Germany's Dr. Schneider Automotive Systems Inc. over $43 million in incentives while the Warren City council also awarded GM nearly $20 million in tax abatement's at the same plant. The same story reports -
Four years ago, Michigan's $256-million state and local incentive package helped persuade GM to announce two new plants just outside Lansing. The two projects, a stamping plant and an assembly plant, involved 2,800 new jobs

Nah not another incentive to build a plant or two...



Let me just list the remaining...

Lordstown, OH 2008. GM gets $80 million from Ohio (Ted Strickland) for its Cruze production plant.

Yuma County, AZ 2007. Arizona gives GM $500,000 to build a grounds testing facility in that county.

Dayton, OH 2008 Ohio offers GM $56 million to keep a plant open but GM says no thanks.

Jaynesville, WI 2008. Wisconsin (Jim Doyle) gives GM $5.4 million for training costs.

Flint, MI 2008 MI offers GM $122.5 million to expand its plant in Flint.

Michigan 2008 State grants GM more than $130 million in tax credits for future Volt production at several plants.

Ohio 2008 State gives Ford $1.7 million in tax credits for an engine plant.

Detroit, MI 2008 State gives Ford $151 million for several plants.

Ontario, Canada 2008 Canadian government gives Ford $75 million in incentives to reopen plant.

Auburn Hills, MI 2008 State awards Chrysler over $115 million in a tax incentive package for the building of a new plant in partnership with Mitsubishi.

Kenosha, WI, 2007 State announces Chrysler will receive $16.7 million in tax incentives for plant upgrade.

Toledo, OH 1997 Ohio gives Chrysler $280 million in tax incentives for a plant.

The total incentives, credits, and abatements on this list total $1,456,300,000 with nearly $1 billion of it coming from Michigan alone. (This list is incomplete as it was compiled after only spending 20 minutes on Google.). I can get more, but I have spent enough time on debunking this asshole.