Teaching Fiberglass (part one and two)

[BIGGERISBETTER]

this is a super quick model cuz im at work and i probly oughta get back to it.. but i think you may see what i mean.



If it sucks.. just say so. haha.

[NickZigaitis]

Quote: Originally Posted by BIGGERISBETTER

this is a super quick model cuz im at work and i probly oughta get back to it.. but i think you may see what i mean.



If it sucks.. just say so. haha.

The idea doesn't suck. Its just that with you idea there would be interference from one of the amps. That entire upper area is nothing but amps. One, actually sits right were you suggested the ridge to be. I could push the amp outward some to do that ridge but then that would defeat the purpose of this enclosure being as this as possible.

I photo shops your rendering to explain what I'm talking about.

This box will have a lot of concave and convex curving of the glass. Keep in touch as I explain how we do this. Or at least little tricks from a novice's point of view that you could do. Fiberglassing gets far more technical that what i explain in this thread. I just try to write this so that the average joe could attempt it with confidence that the advice given will work.



By the way. What program are you using to get the 3d imaging of the enclosure?

[NickZigaitis]

I just came up with a fvcking awesome way to match the inside curve of the interior cowl piece that the shoulder harness goes through in the back of the cab. The enclosure needs to match this curve to make a completely flush fit with the edge of the walls. I drew it up, try to follow it and what I'm talking about. I'm leaving the pic big because there is writing on it that you need to read to understand it.

Hell yeah, I've been racking my brain on an easy way to do this. Thinking about it for months will eentually find a good solution, lol.

[Metlhed01]

heh, yeah if i understand it right, that how i used to get my compound curves in the wood i used to build my architecture models.

[BIGGERISBETTER]

AutoCAD 2000i.. and ya.. that idea above looks like a great idea.

[NickZigaitis]

Quote: Originally Posted by BIGGERISBETTER

AutoCAD 2000i.. and ya.. that idea above looks like a great idea.

I need to get with you about maybe doing an autocad drawing of the center console I'm designing.

[BIGGERISBETTER]

Quote: Originally Posted by NickZigaitis

I need to get with you about maybe doing an autocad drawing of the center console I'm designing.

I've got your phone number.. i can give you a ring-a-ling if you are going to be around sometime this evening or in the coming week and ill just transfer it onto paper then a model. Or use your program to draw a basic design and send it too me. Either or dood.. i'd be happy to help

[NickZigaitis]

Quote: Originally Posted by BIGGERISBETTER

I've got your phone number.. i can give you a ring-a-ling if you are going to be around sometime this evening or in the coming week and ill just transfer it onto paper then a model. Or use your program to draw a basic design and send it too me. Either or dood.. i'd be happy to help

I'll finish up the plans and send you a PDF copy of them. Shoot me a PM with your e-mail and I'll zip them off to you when I'm done. Cool?

[BIGGERISBETTER]

is your box full.. im confused on the cap.. i tried sending you one back w/ no luck?

[tukn18s]

got my console today and put it in the truck just to see how it looks.. the craftsmanship is beautiful.. great glass work.. coulda used some better design info from the buyer( ME) so that it could fit a tad better but what's done is done.. it will work great and looks even better

[NickZigaitis]

Thank Fvvvvvvvvcking GOD. My damn account was on hold for some bullshit e-mail invalid alert. The FREAKING e-mail was right the whole fvcking time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!


Sorry, I paniced for a damn minute. I thought I pissed some moderator off and got my two month vacation, and I couln't figure out why.

Anyway,

Tukn18, what doesn't fit right about your console? That thing should be dead nuts on the money. Something I did? Let me know if you need me to correct something.

[BIGGERISBETTER]

i still cant pm you nick...

[zeldalord]

Quote: Originally Posted by NickZigaitis

Carbon Fiber Sample haven't come in yet. How many sample did you get. I think if I remember right I ordered their standard sample set whihc I think comes with a sample of all of ther composite fabrics.

got 9 of the samples, really are nice. going to get my new sub box and turbo project out of the way b4 I start with the CF project though. I have too many projects...

[tukn18s]

The whole spot for the gauges is a little bit too far underneath my dash.... it needs to be moved back a couple inches. I am going to try and move the entire console back hopefully tomorrow and see how that works. There is no way of fixing it without redoing the entire thing. Thank you and no need to worry.
Kenny

[NickZigaitis]

I had to reactivate my damn account again lastnight and this morning. My PM's should be working now. BIGGERISBETTER, send that pic if you have it.


Thanks

[NickZigaitis]

Quote: Originally Posted by tukn18s

The whole spot for the gauges is a little bit too far underneath my dash.... it needs to be moved back a couple inches. I am going to try and move the entire console back hopefully tomorrow and see how that works. There is no way of fixing it without redoing the entire thing. Thank you and no need to worry.
Kenny

You say not to worry, but thats not in my nature. Its upsetting to me that you're not 100% satisfied. Even though its cool, fits mostly and off only a little, its not right. Make a deal for you. If you can find another console piece for cheap, you sand the plastic smooth, I'll re-skelton and glass and bondo it, no charge and I'll pay the shipping to send it back to you.

Thats just the way I work bro. Gotta keep the fans happy, you know.

[NickZigaitis]

Quote: Originally Posted by tukn18s

The whole spot for the gauges is a little bit too far underneath my dash.... it needs to be moved back a couple inches. I am going to try and move the entire console back hopefully tomorrow and see how that works. There is no way of fixing it without redoing the entire thing. Thank you and no need to worry.
Kenny

Sent you a PM.

Honestly, I remeber and was wondering that but, I couldn't move the skeleton for the guages back any further and retain the original angle you see it at now because you would loose access to the cenetr mount that bolts to the floor. The console would fit better then but any hard bumps in the road and the cosole would jump off the floor cause you wouldn;t be able to secure it there. The skeleton was pulled as far back as it could have gone while retaining the ability to secure it to the floor.

[BIGGERISBETTER]

Quote: Originally Posted by NickZigaitis

I had to reactivate my damn account again lastnight and this morning. My PM's should be working now. BIGGERISBETTER, send that pic if you have it.


Thanks

Well... im working on it.. but im havin a hard time gettin inside your head to figure out what you want in certain parts. I got the cap holder thing done.. thats about it.. and that took 45 minutes at lunch.. so since i have inventory starting tommorrow till sunday you may not see much till maybe monday, since ill be working outside of the office. Ill get it done though one way or another

[NickZigaitis]

Quote: Originally Posted by BIGGERISBETTER

Well... im working on it.. but im havin a hard time gettin inside your head to figure out what you want in certain parts. I got the cap holder thing done.. thats about it.. and that took 45 minutes at lunch.. so since i have inventory starting tommorrow till sunday you may not see much till maybe monday, since ill be working outside of the office. Ill get it done though one way or another

Thats cool. No rush.

I bought the stratch fabric today. I got a fix on what exactly it is. The spandex material is alot like swimsuit or gymnastics uniforms material. Real stretchy. At least thats what the lady at the fabric shop said it was. Unfortunately they didn't have any color other than this nasty orange color. So, I got it and I should have this on by the end of the weekend. The lady says the fabric is strechy in all directions.

Funny thing here: The fabric I got is on the other side of the damn store from the fleece. If thats not telling you all something I don't know what then.

Key phrase here: "Don't use fleece"

[tukn18s]

alright heres the deal on the console. I have a picture but it wont really show how exactly we went about doing it. I will take some more once the camera charges. I had to move the console back, sure nick said he would Re-do it but this is so much hard work to just waste. So, we moved it back about three inches. Now some of you will say that would mess everything up. The bottom of the stock console flows with the floor of the truck, it no longer does. There is only a slight change however, and that slight change will be covered, leaving no evidence that it has been moved, when the seats are installed. The front, where you see it the most, still lines up almost perfectly. My dad had some aluminum laying around, about an inch wide, 1/8 inch thick. We just cut 3 pieces, one for the front and 2 for the back, 4 inches long, drilled a hole in each end 3 inches apart. We then placed the aluminum on the stock studs and attached the console 3 inches farther back in the cab, makes the guages stick out much farther and allows me to show off his work much much more. I will take more pics like i said, but this is all i have for now.

[GuN_Sm0k3]

thats looks tight man
nice work nick

[NickZigaitis]

I'll tell you all what I told Kenny. Sometimes with custom item, as I'm sure most of you have figured out already through customization, that some times a little trimming here, moving there, adjusting there, etc is needed to get custom items not normal for the OEM vehicle to fit right and fulfill your needs. I try to design my stuff to incorporate as little of that added modifiy as possible. Kenny had a great idea on how to adjust the console to fit his needs and did a great job of it.


Looks great. Send me pics when its painted.

[NickZigaitis]

Small Update:

I used a wood filler on the creases of the rings for each woofer to make a more smooth and finished look as well as ensure that they are as sealed as they can get. This is the first layer of wood filler. Its got one more layer on there that I still need to sand. It kind of goes on like bondo but its intended strictly for wood. This is definatly not an area for Bondo. I guess you could use bondo (not sure) but if you're going all out, why half ass shit. USE THE RIGHT STUFF, lol.



From the inside I used a cheap brush and cut most of the hairs off to make short stiff hairs. Then with a cualk gun and contractor's cement, I gooped it on and used the brush to smooth it out. When the contractor's glue is hard, its like cement, rock ass hard stuff and really will make that portion of the enclosure bullet proof.



Here, all I was doing was cualking with Contractors cement, all the creases and joints to make sure everything was sealed and strong.



Here is the ugly ass orange fabric I said I got yesterday. This is a Two-Way Strech, High Elastic, Spandex Material. Its thicker than t-shirt, thinner than fleece, stronger after resin than t-shirt, requires less resin than fleece, requires less sanding than fleece, and streches better than t-shirt and fleece combine.

Cost, .88$ per yard. Of course that was on clearance, hence the orange color. Its not my usual pic. I wanted white but it was $11.00 per yard.



_____________________

Now, there is a slight issue still of how to fit the amps. I have 50.5" wide of an area above the woofers (the amp rack) to work with. I have 4 amps, (1) 11.75" wide and (3) 8.75" wide when you take into account the platforms they'll sit on with a 1/4" half round stock border framing the platforms (like with the screen installs). I still have to figure out a way to mount the fuse block which will sit in its own compartment (4 5/8 X 3 5/8). Where to fit it all? Well, I brainstormed yesterday and got it.

-I'll cut a hole 4 5/8" X 3 5/8" in one of the amp platform and glue the fuse compartment to the back of one of the amp platforms. Then, I don't use up realestate on the amp rack. The only kicker, is if a fuse blows (which through proper wiring and calculations, they shouldn't), I'll have to remove one amp to access the fuses. This allows me more surface room on the amp rack area to space the amps out a little better. Follow? If not, wait to next monday when I post more pics as I'm about to get serious as a heart attack on this thing this weekend.

[NickZigaitis]

Update:

Notice anything weird about this picture?




Oh, Yeah, Thats right, 2 sub boxes.

Free Skeleton Enclosure Give-Away.

Trim ring is for a total woofer diameter of 10 1/8". Woofer mounting depth is 5.79", Single Cell 3 woofer enclosure with 1.67cf airspace.

This enclosure is ready for your amps and fiberglassing. I will not ship it, its for pick-up only. I had extra material and built 2 of them. This is just a little jesture back to all of those in the forum or who read this thread. PM me if want it. First come first serve.

Just my little extra contribution to the forum and those wanting to glass and enclosure for a regular cab. Good Luck.

As far as the rest of the update:

I was busy making the second sub box for forum members, but, I did get the amp platforms made and framed with 3/8" half round stock. This pictures shows their mocked up position.



You may notice a hole in the one platform. This is the recessed mounting of the fuse block to save room. If you read several posts earlier, this is the idea I came up with. The only draw back is that if a fuse blows,I have to remove one amp to get to it.





Some of you might be wondering, "How is he going to wire this thing up when he's done? Its going to fiberglassed across the front side of it".

Well, here is how. On the passenger side of the cab are all the wires running to the open area underneath the pillar cowl underneath the seat belt winding tentioner. On the passenger side of the enclosure will be a 2" diameter hole (unseen from the sides) where all the wiring will be feed through. Using the access holes cut in the back wall of the amp rack will allow further feeding of the wiring through the enclosure to the appropraie amp and woofer. The next series of photos will show this.









This larger hole is the main access. This is where most of the wiring connections with be made; Power fuse Block, Ground D-Block, and most other connections. The skinnier holes are for quick access and wiring of the other amps. A notch had to be grooved out of the back wall to clearance the fuse block's compartment to make the amp platform recess even further.



Remember, 1st come first serve on the other enclosure give away.

[NickZigaitis]

Update:Using 1/8" x 1/8" x 30 balsa wood stock and a 1/4" x 2" x 30" piece of softcore plywood, I made a jig to guage the contour of the inside cowl of the rear pillars inside of the cab. Starting at the bottom, I slowly pushed each cross piece out till it made contact with the cowl and then hotglued that piece to the 2" wide plywood.







Here is a rough mock up of what I was trying to achieve.



With the guage made, I can now trace the contour onto a a sheet of plywood to be cut. That piece cut, can then be flipped and then it traced to get the contour for the other side of the cab.



This weekend I'll finish up these piece with their appropriate curve to them and the rest of the skeleton. I'll also lay the strech fabric and explain making concave and convex curves with the fiberglass.
Then I'll begin the center console and new dash. Once the skeletons for those item are complete, then I'll fiberglass them all. It'll save me time and money on 3 seperate orders for fiberglass by only having one order.

[Chappy316]

what do we have to do for the other skeleton?

[NickZigaitis]

Quote: Originally Posted by Chappy316

what do we have to do for the other skeleton?

Chappy316 pm'd me a good question. I pm'd you the answer but I'll post it here also.

Skeleton = wood construction underneath of fiberglass to give the fiberglass a solid object to stretch to.

i.e. Screen Dash Install = wood filler plate and wood framing of screen

Center Console Install = wood gauge pedestle

Sub enclosure 1 and 2 = partcle board (or MDF if you prefer) construction

1st I'll explain the theory behind the skeleton which will tie into the problems with fleece being used.

The purpose of a skeleton is to generate a shape using points of interest. These points of interest are the points the strech fabric make contact with. The area between these points of interest are what make the overall shape when the strech fabric is streched between these points.

Skeleton construction is primarily used initially to create and object. Then a release agent is applied and then more layers of fiberglass. Because of the release agent, those added layers of glass can be removed. Thus, effectively making a mold of the original item.

Then, release agent is applied inside of this mold and then fiberglass is again applied inside of the mold. When the fiberglass is released from the mold, you have an exact replica of the original skeleton constructed object, only this time, without the actual skeleton.

This is only one method for making molds, however, this is how its done in the real world of composite fabrication.

In the Mini-Trucking World and S10Forum world, that is to expensive and too technical for some. So, the skeleton object is 90% of the time the preferred method for creating unique objects for out trucks.

This leads to the problems with Fleece. Undertstand that fleece is thicker than t-shirt or spandex. The reason fleece is suchas issue is because if you make your skeleton and its points of interest to the precise measurements of a given area and then use fleece and fiberglass to make your skeleton object, you're object will be considerable thicker than these points of interest due to fleece's thickness and the layers of glass accompanied.

because of its added thickness, conversly, the mold will be larger, conversly your final product fiberglassed using that mold will also be larger.

Which = fitment issues. You will have a tougher time fitting a larger object into the area intended and originally measured for.

Fleece also, requires lots of resin for full saturation as well as lots of sanding due to the fuzzy material knoting up during the resin application.

If you use T-shirt you'll considerably reduce the amount of resin needed, however, its too thin and will warp during the resin's cure and inveriable shrinking.

Spandex. Spandex is the most appriate material to use because its slightly thicker than t-shirt, requires far less resin and sanding than fleece, and because of its thin nature compared to fleece, your measuremenst are closer in tolerance to the points of interest than with fleece.

Even if you use fleece and you're not making a mold, you can still run into issues of fitment depending on the application.

Sub enclosures. We all know that flex in a sub enclosure is a big No No. Building an enclosure 90% of particle board or MDF and using fiberglass strictly for cosmetics is a much more economical and yet stronger method than full fiberglass enclosures. The strength of the enclosure is the skeleton.
The only problem, it takes serious wood working skills to create a skelton that will fit a desired area as though it were molded from that area.

With fiberglass enclosures, they can be molded directly from wehere they will be mounted, meaning their fit will be precise. However, due to the internal pressures subwoofers create, the enclosure WILL flex. I don not care what some one says in rebutal to this. IT IS FLEXING UNLESS YOU PUT SERIOUS AMOUNTS OF LAYERS OF GLASS ON.

I'll break it down for you all in layers required for strength.

-MDF skeleton enclosure with stretch fabric, woofers sealed in MDF cell, fiberglass used strictly for cosmetics = 5 - 6 layers of glass

-Full fiberglass enclosure to eliminate 90% of enclosure wall flex = 12 - 13 layers of glass

-Full fiberglass enclosure to eliminate 99-100% of enclosure wall flex = 18-20+ layers of glass.

Here is just a small example for you. The nose cone of an F-18 Hornet is made of 27 layers of 12oz. (fairly heavy) fiberglass using epoxy.

And,,,,,,,,

Epoxy is stronger than resin.

Just a little explaination for ya as to why fleece is crap and spandex is the shit, and to why skelton contruction is preferred.