Teaching Fiberglass (part one and two)

[NickZigaitis]

Quote: Originally Posted by ThorRacing01

cant wait to see the pics. have you started on your new dash bezel with the 10" in it? what kind of tv is it really looking for the same thing. Thanks

The 10" TV is a roof mount style TV. I'm striping the screen from it and mounting it into the screen.

[NickZigaitis]

Update:


The console is taking a bit longer than I wanted it to. The reason isn't the consoles design but rather myself.

Have any of you guys heard me complain that after a couple minutes of sanding my hand goes numb? Well, about 2 weeks ago my hand was freak'n killing me. Could have a grown man crying. Couldn't move even the fingers without it killing me. Turns out I had nicked my finger on some metal doing the notch for my floor for the new sub box and got blood poisoning. The infection went to the nerves and tendons of my right hand. Go figure I'm right handed right? Anyway, I had a damn cast for the last two weeks. Feeling shit tons better now but they still want it splinted during heavy activity or repetitive activity, i.e. sanding damn fiberglass, go figure. So, now I have this nifty custom molded plastic cast on my hand. Makes me look like I have a prostetic hand. But, I'm feeling a lot better.

Tukn18s, console was sanded smooth just prior to all this. I really try to get my stuff done on time and this was unexpected. So, tomorrow I'll cut all the stuff and mount the skeleton. Monday after the holidays I'll lay the strech fabric and fiberglass. The bondo phase won't take long at all.

Bare with me for a second. I know some are getting eager to see it. It won't be long.

And, to Tukn18s, thanks for being patient and I greatly appreciate your sympathy.

Thanks to everyone inquiring about the console and I'll have updates soon.

I have another job lined up after the console, doing fiberglass work on the 94-96 dash bezels and putting two air guages in it rather than the TV. I'll hit that right after the console.

Then........................
I'm taking a break and am going to redo the sub box. Some may have seen the plans for it. Disregard those. I Nixed them. I came up with a way freak'n better arrangement to save more room and still retain the 3 sub and 4 amps on the box. It'll be a little tricky but I'll have pics of that too, just as soon as the console and bezel are complete.

-Nick

[BIGGERISBETTER]

Damn.. all that from a cut?.. How ive avoided that same thing for this long is beyond me.. lol. I get cuts from everything.. but im glad your back to your old self fella.

[NickZigaitis]

Quote: Originally Posted by BIGGERISBETTER

Damn.. all that from a cut?.. How ive avoided that same thing for this long is beyond me.. lol. I get cuts from everything.. but im glad your back to your old self fella.

Know know how when you get a scratch on your eye they can see it by dying the eye and using a blacklight to see them. If you could do the same thing with your hands, I'd be nothing but scares. I've done this sort of thing a thousand times. I swear, this cut I got was the most inocent of small cuts. Hell, I thought nothing of it until by damn hand started killing me in the area of the cut. Then I got worried when it was in my wrist and I couldn't move my fingers.

I was talking to the doc about it. If gone untreated, it could result in the loss of limbs and stuff. Kinda scary I guess. I guess you could say in a way that my limbs cheated death,,,,,oh, I mean cheating getting hacked off. lol.

I'll have more updates soon.

Tukn18s- Get ready brother, this console is gonna be the shit.

[tukn18s]

Quote: Originally Posted by NickZigaitis

Know know how when you get a scratch on your eye they can see it by dying the eye and using a blacklight to see them. If you could do the same thing with your hands, I'd be nothing but scares. I've done this sort of thing a thousand times. I swear, this cut I got was the most inocent of small cuts. Hell, I thought nothing of it until by damn hand started killing me in the area of the cut. Then I got worried when it was in my wrist and I couldn't move my fingers.

I was talking to the doc about it. If gone untreated, it could result in the loss of limbs and stuff. Kinda scary I guess. I guess you could say in a way that my limbs cheated death,,,,,oh, I mean cheating getting hacked off. lol.

I'll have more updates soon.

Tukn18s- Get ready brother, this console is gonna be the shit.

Oh I am ready bro, been doing small $hit to tide me over. Tweeded the side of the dash... painted more interior parts, and tried to do the bezel. Didnt come out too well so i need to just get some more filler... I ran out and got impatient, thats my problem LOL Id post pics BUT i lost the cable and its most definetly M.I.A.

[NickZigaitis]

Small Update:

I got the 4 ply plywood, 1/4" thick from Tower yesterday and I applied this template to it. Today I'll cut it and work on mounting the skeleton of the console. The apex of the top of each guage and the mid-point of the dip in between each guage will create a small scallop to each guage. Sort of like the subbox I did how you had that teardrop shape to it all.

To create the scallops though, you need to pull your streching fabric extremely tight. No half-ass'n it here. The tighter the more the fabric will manipulate the curves.

Because I'll be pulling the fabric crazy tight, the structure of the skeleton needs to be strong. So, Use of epoxy when gluing stuff together is highly recommended. 5minute epoxy is fine as it can speed the work up a bit without loosing strength because of its quicker tack-time.

[NickZigaitis]

Quote: Originally Posted by NickZigaitis

Small Update:

I got the 4 ply plywood, 1/4" thick from Tower yesterday and I applied this template to it. Today I'll cut it and work on mounting the skeleton of the console. The apex of the top of each guage and the mid-point of the dip in between each guage will create a small scallop to each guage. Sort of like the subbox I did how you had that teardrop shape to it all.

To create the scallops though, you need to pull your streching fabric extremely tight. No half-ass'n it here. The tighter the more the fabric will manipulate the curves.

Because I'll be pulling the fabric crazy tight, the structure of the skeleton needs to be strong. So, Use of epoxy when gluing stuff together is highly recommended. 5minute epoxy is fine as it can speed the work up a bit without loosing strength because of its quicker tack-time.

The diameter for the guage's hole is actually 2", with a radius of 1" rather than 1 1/32". But, I never recieved the guage from the customer to fit it properly. I will cut thre hole as close as possible to the 2" diameter dimension but, I'll cut slightly smaller if needed and the customer will have to use a drum sander opn a dremel and grow the hole larger.

[Jerid]

i have a question about your glassed dash. Myself im a glasser and the way i was taught was to fill in all plastic with plastic. Myself i would have bought ABS plastic, filled in everything with durabond 4040 or 4058 (plastic welder). Instead of actually using the fiberglass itself you can just sand down the dur. to whatever finish you wanted. Then...after plastic was secure (15 min.) place my ring for the monitor into the mounted ABS plastic, cut out the area, durabond that into the ABS and sand down to my own finish. Primer and paint.

It weighs half as much and takes half as much work as you would have put into cutting the wood out and placing it...besides...everyone hates working with chopmat against plastic...it hates it lol.

either way...i did want to say it looked great after you were done...but just giving you the heads up on something a bit easier.
j

[monkeydude3602000]

Well I did mine long ago but I finally got a camera that would take a good pic of it. Here it is.

[NickZigaitis]

Quote: Originally Posted by droppeddime

i have a question about your glassed dash. Myself im a glasser and the way i was taught was to fill in all plastic with plastic. Myself i would have bought ABS plastic, filled in everything with durabond 4040 or 4058 (plastic welder). Instead of actually using the fiberglass itself you can just sand down the dur. to whatever finish you wanted. Then...after plastic was secure (15 min.) place my ring for the monitor into the mounted ABS plastic, cut out the area, durabond that into the ABS and sand down to my own finish. Primer and paint.

It weighs half as much and takes half as much work as you would have put into cutting the wood out and placing it...besides...everyone hates working with chopmat against plastic...it hates it lol.

either way...i did want to say it looked great after you were done...but just giving you the heads up on something a bit easier.
j

Yes, You are correct. Plastic can be filled with plastic. However, several things here:

1) I wrote this sticky on fiberglassing as sort of "Cliff's Notes" on fiberglassing. I wrote it while performing techniques that the common man might be able to do with materials that are readibly easy to find.

2) My fiberglassing experience is strictly composites. I don't deal with plastic. I did this stuff on fighter aircraft built for the military. I do not have experience with plastics.

3) You might be able to fill the void with plastic, but you'll still need fiberglassing work to be done to get the smooth contours and flowing lines.

You reference: "It weighs half as much and takes half as much work as you would have put into cutting the wood out and placing it...besides...everyone hates working with chopmat against plastic...it hates it lol."

You have your terminology screwed. At not time in this sticky has chop-matte; a.k.a. spaggetti glass; matte; non-unidirectional glass; has ever been suggested nor used. This entire thread has used a variety of oz. weight fiberglasses. More accurately said, this thread uses uni- and bi- directional weave fiberglass. a.k.a cloth glass.

Resin against plastic, "it hates it". Yes, resin hates plastic, ONLY if the resin was not used with a medium such as fiberglass. Resin alone, will flake, ONLY if the surface was not prepped properly. However, resin should never be used with out fiberglass anyway. I have done many dashes thus far using resin. Absolutely zero problems have occurred with its bonding characteristics.

Experience teaches you that.

[BIGGERISBETTER]

nick zigaitis for president. Or at least interior mod. haha. Looks killer man. Great write up too... makes shit soo much easier.

[NickZigaitis]

Update:

Per the owner's request and my suggestions, the guages were aligned 30* from center with an 8* view angle for optimal viwing by the driver. The skeleton is made of 4-ply birch and spruce. All is epoxied for greatest strength.











This next picture demonstrates how the holes were routed open. Also, for Kenny, this is how you'll need to open the holes up larger if the guages are not fitting 100%. The holes are very close but, because I didn't have the guages to fit them, this is as close to a 2" diameter hole as you'll get.



To be able to access the guages from underneath, a hole was routed open that just larger enough to get your fingers comfortably in there to attach wiring or air lines.





Now its time to lay the strech fabric. Before I do so, let me reiderate that the strech fabric to use should not be fleece and it shouldn't be t-shirt. The reason is that fleece is thick. It requires way to much resin for the normal man's budget. It also requires excessive sanding, and due to its thickness, after layers of fiberglass and bondo, fitment is likely to become an issue. T-shirt material, is too thin, which causes warping but requires far less sanding. A material similar to spandex, absorbes the resin quickly like t-shirt material, but streches better than fleece or t-shirt combined.
Something I have picked up on over the last couple of months is the obsesive use to want to use fleece. I've heard, "The fleece absorbes more resin". Well.............

I hope to God, that those makers of sub boxes aren't relying on the fleece for most of the strength by only adding several layers of glass to the fleece. I hope those maker's of sub boxes understand the internal air pressure of their subs and the psi levels stressed on the fleece is they're only applying several layers of glass to it. Unless, your are making a full enclosue made of mdf or partical with fiberglass used just to give the over-all shape of the box, like the one I did prior in this thread, the fiberglass will flex. Possibly causing sound issues, but more importantly, it could result in cracking at key structural points of the box.

Let me give those a little tid bit of information. The nose cone of a F-18 Hornet is completely composite. It is made of fiberglass using epoxy, not resin. Epoxy offers greater strength. Guess how many layers of 10oz (a fairly heavy glass) are used in its construction?..................................... ..........
















Don't know? 26 layers of 10oz glass using epoxy.

This is because of the air pressure levels exerted on the aircraft at speed. While a sub box isn't going mach 2.5, the subs are still creating a lot of pressure which needs to be properly contained to reduce flexing of the fiberglass.

These photos show the use a spandex like material being cut to size. Because the material can't be streched over the whole console, the lowest point of the console is identified and a band of epoxy is applied. The fabric is secured at this point which provides sort of an achor for the fabric as your strech the hell out of it over the area to be glasses. Once the glass is anchored, fold it back and apply resin along all areas the fabric will make contact with. Fold the fabric back over and strch it over the console and using thumb tacks, tack it to the table. Resin over top of this fabric and resin past thre edges to provide a solid point for cutting the access off.

[NickZigaitis]

Now for the fiberglassing. While this unit is considered structural because it is a change to the over-all look of the console, there isn't tremendous stress applied to it like a sub box. So, 2 layers of 10oz glass and 2 layers of 5oz glass were used. The 10oz glass in this picture is the heavier looking glass with a more prodominant thread pattern.



Always cut all layers of the glass to fit prior to using resins. In this next series of pictures you'll notice the large fold in the 5oz glass. What to do with this, it won't conform easy?
This is a prime example of why Matte glass isn't used. There is no way in hell Matte glass will conqour these curves. Hell, weave glass is having a hard time too. The 10oz glass conformed well, because it is a uni-directional glass. I'll get to that later. but, the 5oz glass's tigher weave pattern is giving fits trying to get this curve. So, what to do. Here's what we do. You relief cut it.
1) Pinch the fold
2) Draw a line along the crease of the fold on both sides.
3) Cut along that line to make your relief flaps. in this case, there are 3.
4) Mark a reference point so that the glass can be placed properly in the exact position after resin is applied. In this case, the guages.
5) While resin is applied. Fold each flap over themselves to wrap the curve.

I forgot to get a picture of thids console's relief cut but, I have a picture from the speaker dash pods that has relief cuts and will hopefully demonstrate to you what I am talking about.











1st layer of 10oz glass.



Please pay attention here. This is why we use Weave fiberglass rather than Matte.

The 10oz glass, the glass offerring the most strength is what is called a Uni-Directional Weave Cloth Fiberglass. The (Uni-) is oppossed to that of (Bi-) Directional. Uni-Directional is a type of glass that is strong in all 4 directions, however, 75% of its strength is in 2 of the four directions. Uni-Directional glass can be easily identified by a characteristic ridge in the glass or a striped look which is the prominant weave in that direction. While some of you might say, "Why not use a glass that strong in all directions?". Answer, Uni-Directional glass, because its strongest in one direction, means that it expands and contracts more in the weaker direction. The black arrow in this pic is the direction of the (Uni-) or strongest ply of the glass. The Red arrow is the weaker ply. The Yellow Lines show the degree of expansion and contraction of the glass to contour the tight curves. The expanding and contracting of the weave is the primary reason why Weave glass is strictly preferred over that of Matte for its ability to contour the curves of an object.

Please keep this in mind when suggesting to other members what type of glass to use.



With fiberglassing complete, Bondo is applied. Bondo must be appied because of the ridges caused by the 10oz glass. These ridges must be filled. The 5oz glass is used to partially fill them to help reduce the amount of bondo to be applied.





You might question,"How do you secure it to the floor?"

Well, the middle guage was positioned just right to provide access straight through for use of a long screw driver to screw it into the floor. The 2 outer guages can be installed and the wiring hooked up and then the middle guage can have it's wiring passed through its hole. The console can be mounted to the floor and then the guage can then be hooked up and pushed into its mount.





All that is left to do is glaze the small pin holes found and do the last bit of tidying up on the plastic portion and then prime it. Its about 97% complete.

This is how it sits right now.

[pewter_dime_99]

you do amazing work man.... i love seeing your projects unfold.... beautiful

[NickZigaitis]

Small Update:

I just finished the plans for the new sub box. if you remember, I was going to do a large full wall sub box. I'm not a huge fan of blow throughs so thats what drove me in that direction.
Anyway, I determined that there just wasn't enough room. I have since fixed the floor problem by tunneling it for the drive shaft. I also, have ditched the 60/40 bench and have installed two buckets. That also have a little extra room.

If you can't tell from the plans, this box is a bit more radically sloped with the top of the box being right at the bottom of the rear window. As the face of the box comes up to the top, it slopes into the top for as more flush of a look. This will allow for a little extra leg room and the ability to recline the seat further.

The plans aren't entirely to scale. It looks thicker than it is but instead, the large portion of the box is rather thin and the air space required for the woofers is created by thin cells with the cylindrical fortion comming off the cells that hold the woofer, they too help with air space. Calculated, they each should recieve 1.65cf air space each.

the new screen in the dash will be hooked up to a back up cam mounted in the far most upper part of the box. this area will sort of periscope up to look out the back window. When this is complete, the OEM rear view mirror will be shaved for a cleaner interior look.

The amps, thats tricky. They are steeply angled and will be inserted into pockets created within the fiberglass. The adjustment and tuning side of the amps will be slightly exposed from the front to allow for ease of tunning without ripping it all apart.

I have a a 97' dash bezel to do after this console and then I'm taking a hiatis to work on my own stuff. I'll post detailed progress pics as I go. I should be back in June to help others with doing their fiberglass work. Of, course, unless the offer is good enough, lol.

if you feel you can successfully attempt these plans for a sub box in a regular cab S10, feel free to print these pics, aquire your own personal measurements and build away.













-Nick

[Chappy316]

your nuts man... mad props on all of these projects, and make sure you keep us posted on this box (if it can simply be called a box)...

[BIGGERISBETTER]

Looks sick fella. I love the design and the structure of it. The plans are great too even though the dimensions arent present yet, but im sure those will get added in later. I'm a draftsmen and i know how much time goes into a good set of prints.

BTW.. id be willing to rock the link to this thead in my sig, since you cant for awhile. It's seriously the only thread people should go to for fiberglass instruction.

[DevilDriver]

just as a friendly reminder guys...

this is not a for sale thread, nor is it a thread related to business. it is a very helpful thread to teach the intrcacies of fiberglass. if you are interested in having someone do work for you, or you would like to do work for someone, please restrict it to pm's only.

thanks guys.

[NickZigaitis]

PunkORama is right. Lets try to leave this thread to teaching and tutorial aspects only. If you have requests, send them to me via PM or e-mail. However, I'm taking a break and working on my own stuff for a while. After 10 bezels and other projects for local guys or members, I haven't gotten anything done on mine in months. Time to get my own project restarted.

Try back to me in June, that'll give me time to catch my own truck up.

Incase you guys haven't realized, Punk is the shit and a good moderator. Try to bide by his words and he won't let you down. He's helped me in the past as I know he'll help you in the future.

Anyways, back to the console. The console is complete. The primer has gone on, pin holes and problem areas have been glazed and its good to go. To the owner, the only thing you have left to do is final prep work before paint and ensure your guages fit since I didn't have them to size the holes and finalize them. Make sure you fit the guages before paint. There is a photo amongst the picture of the build up demonstrating how to open the holes up larger. Do this in very fine increments and take your time so that you don't make them too big.

Here are photos of the final product.










Notice the heater in the background. That was the only way to get the paint to cure sometime in this life time with the cold weather we've been having here in St. Louis.

Why is it when you have stuff depending on warmth to cure, it cold outside. But, when you don't care about the cold weather, its warm. Today, 2 Jan 06, hell it must be 60* out. I could wear shorts for crying out loud.

We'll, I hope the owner likes what he gets and it was a pleasure working with him on this. I'd greatly appreciate pictures of it painted and installed when he's done with it.

I'm taking a hiatis from side projects to get my own stuff done. Keep in touch with this thread as I start the new sub box build (plans to it are posted in an earlier thread) and document its build up for you all to follow along. The new sub box will be far more complex than the last and allow the seats to come back further andf recline further than before, all while retaining the 3 subs and 4 amps behind the seat with the correct air space and no blow through.

I seriously considered a blow through but, not everyone is in to it so I build this one as a regular cab box.

Thanks for all the replies, questions, comments and concerns to this thread thus far. Always feel welcome to pm me or e-mail me any questions you might have along the way in your own projects.
I am always willing to help to the best of my knowledge on the subjects.

[kickinrocks]

Damn bro... you do some nice work. Glad to see another real deal glasser her on the forum. Keep it up bro!

[ThorRacing01]

Quote: Originally Posted by NickZigaitis

Small Update:



I have a a 97' dash bezel to do after this console and then I'm taking a hiatis to work on my own stuff.

-Nick

are you still doing the 97 dash bezel??

[NickZigaitis]

Quote: Originally Posted by ThorRacing01

are you still doing the 97 dash bezel??

No. 97 dash build is scraped. Item is being sent back to owner. Sorry guys. Wife wants me to get my own stuff done. I haven't worked on my own truck in months.

[NickZigaitis]

Some of you, including the owner, may or have been questioning the position of the guages on the console and whether or not the guages will be too hard to see because they may be too far underneath the dash to view. I went how at lunch, yanked the passenger seat out and shot some photos of the console sort of mocked up with its location. The console in the pics doesn't sit flush with the floor because I don't have the nifty mounting hole in the floor for the console's main attachment point (the point looking through the middle guage to mount to the floor). So, with that in mind, the guages will actually gain about an inch or so of room when finally installed.

Here are the pics.

Don't mind the glaze. I found a couple more pin holes needing correction so this will be sanded again and re-primed.









This one is as close to an actual driver perspective as I could get my camera to get.



I told you all it would fit. Looks pretty tits doesn't it?

[Metlhed01]

tittays!

[yell02sonoma]

Awesome!