dist-less ignition w/ LS1 coils

[s10ls]

found this on another forum, seems very interesting and since my truck has the same dist as a syty, i will likely be trying this very soon.

http://www.syty.net/forums/showthread.php?t=40439

has anyone ever heard of doing something like this? running wider gaps, not having to change plugs, wires, cap and rotor all the time would be fantastic

[IntheBatCave]

You might want to look into the distributorless ignition that comes stock on the current year 4.3's as well.

[Crew Cab Sonoma]

im still not sure what any real advantages to such a setup are. bigger plug gaps dont necessarilly help anything, and the cost of such a conversion would buy a lot of caps and rotors....

[s10ls]

the advantages come into play for a high performance engine like mine. this would be nearly pointless to do on a stock truck i would imagine

[BudRacing]

Congrats on the TOTM. You should definitely put a link of your cardomain page up though, I wanna see some enlarged pics!

[Crew Cab Sonoma]

even with considerable boost, i dont see where it would be of any significant benefit. i have a turbocharged Lebaron that runs over 20 psi boost, on a bone stock distrobutor ign. system, doesnt miss a beat....

and why would a distributorless setup keep you from having to change plugs?

[s10ls]

Quote: Originally Posted by BudRacing

Congrats on the TOTM. You should definitely put a link of your cardomain page up though, I wanna see some enlarged pics!

thanks, i dont know how to post on the TOTM page though. you can check out the link to my cardomain in my sig here though

Quote: Originally Posted by Crew Cab Sonoma

even with considerable boost, i dont see where it would be of any significant benefit. i have a turbocharged Lebaron that runs over 20 psi boost, on a bone stock distrobutor ign. system, doesnt miss a beat....

and why would a distributorless setup keep you from having to change plugs?

i would suggest you go to syty.net and ask around and see what they have to say about the stock ign setup. most will say its satisfactory, but they will also tell you they would upgrade to a setup like this in a heart beat. these stock setups are known to have problems. comparing a turbo lebaron and an s10 is comparing apples to oranges. i respect your opinion but i will take the advice of the people who specialize in these motors

i have about 1500 miles on my truck since the turbo and MPFI swap, and i am already on my second cap and rotor, second set of plug wires, and my 5th set of plugs (though alot of that is from the tuning stages). though 500$ might be alot now, in the long run it will save money and my back from leaning over and changing all these ign. components all the time

and on the first post, i meant to say plug wires, not plugs and wires

anyways, this is beside the point, i was asking if anyone knew of someone running a similar setup, not whether it was pointless to do or not

[IntheBatCave]

Quote: Originally Posted by s10ls

anyways, this is beside the point, i was asking if anyone knew of someone running a similar setup, not whether it was pointless to do or not

Hotrod magazine ran a disributorless ignition on the 3/4 350 when they bolted a vortech s/c on it. They had to get rid of the distributor to make room for the carb box. You should search there site and see what they used.

[Dan Plante]

Quote: Originally Posted by s10ls

thanks, i dont know how to post on the TOTM page though. you can check out the link to my cardomain in my sig here though




i would suggest you go to syty.net and ask around and see what they have to say about the stock ign setup. most will say its satisfactory, but they will also tell you they would upgrade to a setup like this in a heart beat. these stock setups are known to have problems. comparing a turbo lebaron and an s10 is comparing apples to oranges. i respect your opinion but i will take the advice of the people who specialize in these motors

i have about 1500 miles on my truck since the turbo and MPFI swap, and i am already on my second cap and rotor, second set of plug wires, and my 5th set of plugs (though alot of that is from the tuning stages). though 500$ might be alot now, in the long run it will save money and my back from leaning over and changing all these ign. components all the time

and on the first post, i meant to say plug wires, not plugs and wires

anyways, this is beside the point, i was asking if anyone knew of someone running a similar setup, not whether it was pointless to do or not

Because Crew Cab thinks everything people do is a waste of time and money. He never has anything good to say about anything. You could come up with the best idea in the world and he will find a way to tell you it is the worst thing ever.

[02_Black_XBlazer]

Dan, your analysis is the worst analysis ever.


j/k

[rat]

Quote: Originally Posted by IntheBatCave

Hotrod magazine ran a disributorless ignition on the 3/4 350 when they bolted a vortech s/c on it. They had to get rid of the distributor to make room for the carb box. You should search there site and see what they used.

Yep: http://www.electromotive-inc.com/products/xdi.html

[MINTSICK]

Quote: Originally Posted by Dan Plante

Because Crew Cab thinks everything people do is a waste of time and money. He never has anything good to say about anything. You could come up with the best idea in the world and he will find a way to tell you it is the worst thing ever.

Well I wouldn't say he says that, I'd say more so that some people put too much faith into modifications that do little to nothing for performance and he is usually just being very realistic and honest.

As for the distributorless ignition on a 4.3, if you are really having that much trouble with the stock components then I would look into the system used on the latest iteration of the 4.3 found in new silverados. Maybe it is just the earlier 4.3 distributors that have problems but I haven't noticed people having too many issues with the later 4.3's (96+) with all types of different boost methods. Is a 94 TBI distributor still a traditional HEI?

[s10ls]

Quote: Originally Posted by MINTSICK

Well I wouldn't say he says that, I'd say more so that some people put too much faith into modifications that do little to nothing for performance and he is usually just being very realistic and honest.

As for the distributorless ignition on a 4.3, if you are really having that much trouble with the stock components then I would look into the system used on the latest iteration of the 4.3 found in new silverados. Maybe it is just the earlier 4.3 distributors that have problems but I haven't noticed people having too many issues with the later 4.3's (96+) with all types of different boost methods. Is a 94 TBI distributor still a traditional HEI?

i never said anything about this being a performance mod. it is more for reliability and accuracy of the spark. perhaps being able to run a wider gap under high boost pressures offers some kind of benefit as far as burning the air/fuel mixture, i dont know.

yes the TBI is HEI

[Generic0]

The only problemb im having with my distrubtor is the tabs that hold the cap on are broke off. Dose anyone know the correct msd part # for the replacment?

[MINTSICK]

Quote: Originally Posted by s10ls

i never said anything about this being a performance mod. it is more for reliability and accuracy of the spark. perhaps being able to run a wider gap under high boost pressures offers some kind of benefit as far as burning the air/fuel mixture, i dont know.

yes the TBI is HEI

Doesn't msd make a v6 HEI distributor?

[Crew Cab Sonoma]

Quote: Originally Posted by Dan Plante

Because Crew Cab thinks everything people do is a waste of time and money. He never has anything good to say about anything. You could come up with the best idea in the world and he will find a way to tell you it is the worst thing ever.

NO, Dan, thats not the case at all... and i think you know this. i just give people my honest opinion, based on common sense, and over 25 years of experience in hot rodding automobiles.

if somebody comes up with a great idea, i`ll be more than happy to tell them so...

if its an interesting idea, but not likely to net them any real benefits, i`ll tell them that too.


if its a a really bad idea, ditto... if it has both good and bad points, i`ll point em both out. in other words, i just call it like i see it... if it sounds like i dont like most ideas, well then so be it.

youre just mad because i called B.S. on your claim of gaining SIX TENTHS in the 1/4 due solely to a CAI....
i suppose next, you`ll be telling how your friend pick up nearly a full second from converting to distributorless ign., right???

[s10ls]

Quote: Originally Posted by MINTSICK

Doesn't msd make a v6 HEI distributor?

they do, but it would be foolish IMO to drop a few hundred on it when you can spend a little more and have a LS1 coil setup

[Crew Cab Sonoma]

and if it offers no real gains, in either power or milage, would it not be equally foolish?

[s10ls]

Quote: Originally Posted by Crew Cab Sonoma

and if it offers no real gains, in either power or milage, would it not be equally foolish?

i have already said i will take the opinion of those who have much more experience with these then you alone do. they tell me one thing, you tell me another. i'm listening to them

[Crew Cab Sonoma]

Quote: Originally Posted by s10ls

i have already said i will take the opinion of those who have much more experience with these then you alone do. they tell me one thing, you tell me another. i'm listening to them

do what you want.
and what are "they" telling you? do they have proof of actual gains, or just "theoretical" improvements?

[SuperSS27]

Quote: Originally Posted by Crew Cab Sonoma

and if it offers no real gains, in either power or milage, would it not be equally foolish?

there are probably zero performance gains. But there is better reliability and consitency with a coil on plug system. Prolly the main reason the LSx generation's have the same setup. Its gotta be good for something.

[brock1949]

Are you guys freaking NUTS!, you don't know what’s wrong with HEI, you don't know how there could be gains!!!!

COMMMMMMOONNN i would hope to god everyone here is smarter then this...

First off anyone who's tried to keep a full size Chevy 96+ 350 getting near 20mpg will tell you how AWESOME stock HEI systems are let ALONE all the turbo guys over at syty.net that would be ITCHING to rip into this topic..

I had a 99 suburban,.. 10k miles TOPS out of a set of wires, plugs, cap and rotor.. At 6k miles you would loose roughly 1mpg, by 10k miles you've lost 3-4mpg, By 12-15k miles you have spark retard and check engine lights from misfires on random cylinders, Let me tell you the first time your pulling 6,000-8,000 lbs through the mountains with 9k miles on your plugs and wires and you get a check engine light it retards your timing and you can now go 40mph all full throttle in 3rd gear.. yaaa rock on HEI

I have several friends working GM garages... All i hear about is how much HEI setups suck, and how they have a constant flow of trucks (usually ran hard) coming in around 15-20k check engine lights from mis fires and running like shit that need cap rotor and wires..

Ever try to ignite a meth/water mix in a high pressure cylinder????.. hmm most of the turbo guys are gapping plugs down to .20-.28 to make it happen... ya i don't see a gain from them being able to jump up to a .30-.60 gap.. nahhh your probably right lol.

Also don't forget coil on plug recharge time, it has what 6 times or 8 times as long for the coil to recharge..I paid big money for a coil that could TRY to recharge intime and provide the full spark.. or at least the spark that makes it to the chamber..

And how do you know your turbo lebaron is actually igniting all the A/F in the chamber... I bet if you were able to throw some real power at it you could pinpoint some gains pretty damn quick...

And last off, HEI's are SLOPPY !!!!! The higher the RPM's the worse the timing control gets.. when your running high Hp, High boost, high cylinder pressures... you at risk of where and when it fires and what problems its going to cause you. I personally am going to be ALL over dropping my HEI asap, I'm working with two of the biggest names in Megasquirt right now that are making a kit to put vr4 coil packs with a custom dis system. These are guys that make over 250k a year writing software, building ecms, and building tuning cars... They both begged me not to run HEI at all...

So before you guys start slamming on S10ls you should take a step back, do your homework and realize he is trying to pioneer some real technology into these builds. Then again maybe I don't know what real gains are and i need to go buy a pack of stickers or a cold air intake and throw it on my truck and REALLY feel the gains!!! I mean common instead of random open end, general comments not supporting the ideas, just to start crap hoping it can turn into yet ANOTHER thread where no one agrees so every fights and 20% of the people involved actually know what the hell they are fighting over.

[brock1949]

Some fun reading from prostreet online...

http://diy.prostreetonline.com/techt...sp?articleid=1

[s10ls]

after doing some reading, it appears being able to run a wider gap does help things. more exposed spark means less unspent fuel leaving the combustion chamber, thus making the engine easier to tune in more accurately. cause unburnt air/fuel shows up as lean on a wideband o2 sensor when it is actually rich.

not to mention the benefits when running water/alky/meth like brock mentioned

after researching this more, i will be trying this much sooner then i originally had anticipated

[rat]

Quote: Originally Posted by brock1949

First off anyone who's tried to keep a full size Chevy 96+ 350 getting near 20mpg will tell you how AWESOME stock HEI systems are let ALONE all the turbo guys over at syty.net that would be ITCHING to rip into this topic..

I had a 99 suburban,.. 10k miles TOPS out of a set of wires, plugs, cap and rotor.. At 6k miles you would loose roughly 1mpg, by 10k miles you've lost 3-4mpg, By 12-15k miles you have spark retard and check engine lights from misfires on random cylinders, Let me tell you the first time your pulling 6,000-8,000 lbs through the mountains with 9k miles on your plugs and wires and you get a check engine light it retards your timing and you can now go 40mph all full throttle in 3rd gear.. yaaa rock on HEI

A '99 suburban(i asume the old body style, the new body style has an ls1) doesn't have hei. In fact the '95 and up s-10's, and '96 and up full sizes all don't have hei. Also, the systems on these trucks, the '96 and up ones, the position of the distributor has very little affect on what the actual timing is, it only controls what cylinder gets the spark. The '96 and up control timing by when the coil fires, just like a distributorless ignition system, except it only has 1 coil. I can't see any reason to have problems controling spark at high rpms with this system.

So, lets talk HEI, and not even bring the newer system into things.

[brock1949]

HEI or not its still a CAP and ROTOR that works for less then 10k miles and its a POS. I had planned on keeping that truck i was going DIS, Which this system would have worked on. That system (no idea of the name of it if not HEI) sucks along with HEI in my truck.. i've been 40 miles out in sand dunes with that suburban loaded to the top with everyones gear and couldn't get the suburban running because that cap rotor system had moisture in it, i had to take it apart and leave it in the sun.. 20 minutes later it started.

I'm not fond of any system that uses a cap and rotor period.. The way your explaining it, your saying the spark doesn't jump between rotor and cap like my HEI setup.. then tell me this why are were they always always melted just like my s10's HEI is..Honestly i have no idea actually asking....either way is problems and down falls were identical to HEI....

Ya it was a 99 old body style, bastard year, non ls motor (like the 99 trucks got) and had to get exhaust kits for 97 to fit it.

Whats the name of that 96-99 system for future reference.. ? i'm so lost and confused lol.

[Crew Cab Sonoma]

Quote: Originally Posted by brock1949

Are you guys freaking NUTS!, you don't know what’s wrong with HEI, you don't know how there could be gains!!!!

COMMMMMMOONNN i would hope to god everyone here is smarter then this...

First off anyone who's tried to keep a full size Chevy 96+ 350 getting near 20mpg will tell you how AWESOME stock HEI systems are let ALONE all the turbo guys over at syty.net that would be ITCHING to rip into this topic..

I had a 99 suburban,.. 10k miles TOPS out of a set of wires, plugs, cap and rotor.. At 6k miles you would loose roughly 1mpg, by 10k miles you've lost 3-4mpg, By 12-15k miles you have spark retard and check engine lights from misfires on random cylinders, Let me tell you the first time your pulling 6,000-8,000 lbs through the mountains with 9k miles on your plugs and wires and you get a check engine light it retards your timing and you can now go 40mph all full throttle in 3rd gear.. yaaa rock on HEI

if you were having that kind of trouble with your tune up parts, you were either buying serously sub-par parts, or were really boogering up your installation of them, or both. ive known of plenty of Vortec 4.3/305/350`s with at, or over 100K miles on their original plugs, wires caps and rotors... with no loss of performance, or economy.

and BTW, last time i looked, LS1 style DIS ign. systems still used plug wires as well...
whats to keep them from going bad too? lemme guess... because they are shorter?... RIGHT...

Quote:

I have several friends working GM garages... All i hear about is how much HEI setups suck, and how they have a constant flow of trucks (usually ran hard) coming in around 15-20k check engine lights from mis fires and running like shit that need cap rotor and wires..

i know GM mechanics who can attest to to the fact that there are no shortage of vehicles with DIS igns. needing coils, expensive control modules, PCMs, and even plug wires... dont even attempt to make it look like DIS has all but eliminated ign. troubles.... far from it...

Quote:

Ever try to ignite a meth/water mix in a high pressure cylinder????.. hmm most of the turbo guys are gapping plugs down to .20-.28 to make it happen... ya i don't see a gain from them being able to jump up to a .30-.60 gap.. nahhh your probably right lol.

not sure if you are talking about a gasoline fueled engine using water/methanol injection, or a solely methanol fueled engine...
if its the first, then the ammount anti-detonant mixture shouldnt be so large as to cause a significant increase ign. energy. unless youre just drowning the engine with it...
and if you are talking about pure methanol fueled engine, then it has practially no need forwater injection...
and even guys running DIS like GNs, still dont run large gaps with high boost levels...
gee, i wonder why?.....

Quote:

Also don't forget coil on plug recharge time, it has what 6 times or 8 times as long for the coil to recharge..I paid big money for a coil that could TRY to recharge intime and provide the full spark.. or at least the spark that makes it to the chamber..

coil recharge (saturation) time does become an issue on some single coil equipped engines. generally at very high rpm, and with 8 cyls. or more. and high boost levels, to a smaller degree.
4 and 6 cyl. engines have more time between plug firings, at a given rpm, than 8cyl. engines do, thus their useable range extends to proportionably higher engine speeds.
but if if adequate coil saturation time becomes an issue with an inductive system, you can always use an aftermarket capacitive disharge (CD) type system, which has a far quicker recharge rate than inductive systems.
these typically are capable of easily delivering ample spark energy to 10,000+ rpm on a V8...

Quote:

And how do you know your turbo lebaron is actually igniting all the A/F in the chamber... I bet if you were able to throw some real power at it you could pinpoint some gains pretty damn quick...

i dont think so... the car has over 140K mi. on it, and has ran low 13`s on more stock components than you would believe. including stock coil, and cheapo 7mm carbon core plug wires... and other TD owners have tried all kinds of aftermarket ign. upgrades, with no gains... the stock ign. components are lighting the mixture quite effectively...

so many of you people seem to think that more spark energy automatically equals more HP... most of the time, that just is not the case....
NEWS FLASH....if a spark across a small plug gap successfully initiates combustion, no ammount of extra plug gap, or spark energy will do a better job of
burning the A/F mixture in the cylinder better...
the spark either lights off the mixture, or it doesnt. if your cylinder charge isnt burning "comepletely" then you have mixture ratio, distrbution, or homogenization issues that more ign. power cant fix....

Quote:

And last off, HEI's are SLOPPY !!!!! The higher the RPM's the worse the timing control gets.. when your running high Hp, High boost, high cylinder pressures... you at risk of where and when it fires and what problems its going to cause you. I personally am going to be ALL over dropping my HEI asap,

tell me, what makes HEI`s any more "sloppy" than any other distributor ign. out there? or is it all distributor type systems, that you consider to be that way?
while this is true to some extent, because most earlier dist. systems get their firing signal from the pickup inside the dist. but most OBDII systems use a crank sensor for triggering, thus eliminiating the "SLOP"
and most early dist. systems can be upgraded to crank triggering as well.

besides, that DIS convesion you boys are geeking out on, over on the SyTy forum, still uses the dist. rotor as a triggering reference! so much for emilination of the"slop"...
"OH NO! THE SKY IS FALLING!!!"

most of the timing accuracy improvements on newer model vehicles doesnt come from the fact that they have DIS, but from using higher resolution crank position sensing, such a GM`s "58X" type, and from faster, more sophisticated PCM technology... something you still may not be getting with aftermarket ign. systems...

Quote:

I'm working with two of the biggest names in Megasquirt right now that are making a kit to put vr4 coil packs with a custom dis system. These are guys that make over 250k a year writing software, building ecms, and building tuning cars... They both begged me not to run HEI at all...

clearly, they are paid on comission..... giving techno geeks like you hard-ons for buch of thelatest "fads"...

Quote:

So before you guys start slamming on S10ls you should take a step back, do your homework and realize he is trying to pioneer some real technology into these builds. Then again maybe I don't know what real gains are and i need to go buy a pack of stickers or a cold air intake and throw it on my truck and REALLY feel the gains!!! I mean common instead of random open end, general comments not supporting the ideas, just to start crap hoping it can turn into yet ANOTHER thread where no one agrees so every fights and 20% of the people involved actually know what the hell they are fighting over.

nobody was "slamming" him, just trying to warn him that this may not have as many "real world"advantages as he might think...

if any of you guys want to prove me wrong on this, then by all means... do it.
but you better bring rock solid proof, like dyno tests, not a bunch of links to threads and half-baked articles, about how its "theoretical" superiority....

dont get me wrong. i dont dislike DIS, or automatically prefer distributor systems.
if an engine comes factory with it, thats great. but before i spend my time and hard earned money converting an engine to it, i better see PROOF that its going to deliver "REAL" significant benefits....

[badnoma]

Quote: Originally Posted by Crew Cab Sonoma

so many of you people seem to think that more spark energy automatically equals more HP... most of the time, that just is not the case....
NEWS FLASH....if a spark across a small plug gap successfully initiates combustion, no ammount of extra plug gap, or spark energy will do a better job of
burning the A/F mixture in the cylinder better...
the spark either lights off the mixture, or it doesnt. if your cylinder charge isnt burning "comepletely" then you have mixture ratio, distrbution, or homogenization issues that more ign. power cant fix....

Very well put.

[brock1949]

This is utter crap, i'll deal with all this later when i'm in the mood to deal with people who don't have the understanding, background, or knowledge to be talking about the topic.

[brock1949]

Alright to get the party started, the troubles with my 99 were not installation error, gm parts for the first 5-6 times 3 times done by my cousin at the dealer, the rest of the time we started trying other wires etc for longer life, which helped..I don't even know where to go with this one because it is what it is and my 99 was not the only with problems and i don't feel like wasting my time talking about what you think and i do about this topic.

Next is the LS1 setup has no dist. who gives a #$#^#$ if its got a spark plug wire... IT STILL DROPS THE CAP AND ROTOR.....

Next...ANY ignition system will have its problems, were not saying its NEVER going to break.. But i'll bet your left nut that it doesn't need a cap and rotor after 1500 miles.. hmmm or any part after 1500 miles.... And tell me, what more expensive a truck not running from ignition problems loosing me almost $200HR on a crew that was supposed to be working or buying parts to service a DIS once every 100k miles IF THAT...

"not sure if you are talking about a gasoline fueled engine using water/methanol injection, or a solely methanol fueled engine...
if its the first, then the amount anti-detonant mixture shouldn't be so large as to cause a significant increase ign. energy. unless youre just drowning the engine with it...
and if you are talking about pure methanol fueled engine, then it has practially no need for water injection...
and even guys running DIS like GNs, still dont run large gaps with high boost levels...
gee, i wonder why?..... "

.... that paragraph got a room of people laughing.. not sure where to start with that one either,.. your outlook and logic baffles me from time to time. So going on your theory if you have a spark ALL the fuel must ignite lol,,.. then sure if you fill the chamber with whatever you want it will ignite and burn all of it LMAO.. With logic like that i don't even know where to explain... Lets just say i spent 4 years working on race engines on karts watching coils, ignitions, plug ranges, gaps determine lap times up to a full second in change on a 19 second lap.. but screw it again it doesn't mater because IF IT SPARKS IT BURNS IT ALL.. i just gotta keep telling myself that...

Now onto my favorite part, where you start talking about the slop in the DIS systems and my friends working megasquirt.. this is by far where you step it up a notch and really start to tick me off..

Did i say this was the method i was using.. did he say this was the most accurate method,.. No i don't think so,.. Also your 100% right CLEARLY you know your stuff about megasquirt and these guys are making a killing off commission. working for.. umm Shit.. thats right this is a open source grass roots ECM and unless your selling the bags of parts to build them then your not making money.. But then again you knew that right ? No neither one of these guys works for anything to do with megasquirt, one designs ecms for a company in LA for old muscle cars making well over 300k a year (probably doesn't know what he's talking about though), the other has a shop building turbo cars and related projects.. They benefit in no WAY SHAPE OR FORM by talking to me until 2am about what were doing on all of our personal build,.. or when they spend hours writing wiring diagrams for my truck or working on base maps for free.

Now the DIS system they use, doesn't use a dist. at all, that is just a system that someone tried and worked on and s10ls posted for anyone sick of HEI BS. The system they designed uses machined parts, crank pos. sensors, vr4 coil packs oh and they give this information out for free and the plans to do it .. total cost.. under 400 dollars using all new parts with MSD vr4 coil packs..

In the end i'm not here to try and start crap with a single person but if you wanna jump on s10ls giving him crap then on me you better work out some better angles then what your coming to this thread with now. Ya sure tell me to go screw myself or whatever your want, but anyone who thinks that if it sparks it burns all the fuel and there isn't ANYTHING left over no mater what your spraying or how high the cylinder pressure is.. I've got nothing for you.

Don't spend a ton of time writing back a bunch of stuff or anything else, i doubt i check back to this thread it was by chance i even looked back tonight. I work 60-80 hrs a week, work on the truck, goto the gym 3 days a week, and have about a dozen other commitments a week. This is an amazing waste of my time and i feel bad for anyone who stumbles onto this thread hoping to learn anything about actually using a DIS setup. I wouldn't be the least bit bothered if a admin deleted it actually, S10ls,.. clearly the s10forum is just not far enough advanced to use this technology and its a waste of perfectly good space on a forum that could be filled with something else that not just a techno geek HARD ON yada yada fab us silly stupid people play with.. we should all just lebarons and learn what the hells up, actually i'm going to head back over to the syty side now and tell them they are missing the picture and STOP ALL DIS projects ITS A FAD we will all be going back to HEI soon and its only for ..umm techno geek hard on something or another's.

[s10ls]

i'll be the second to recommend this thread get deleted/locked/disappear or whatever.

i'll think twice before posting something different like this again lol

[MINTSICK]

Quote: Originally Posted by brock1949

Don't spend a ton of time writing back a bunch of stuff or anything else, i doubt i check back to this thread it was by chance i even looked back tonight. I work 60-80 hrs a week, work on the truck, goto the gym 3 days a week, and have about a dozen other commitments a week. This is an amazing waste of my time and i feel bad for anyone who stumbles onto this thread hoping to learn anything about actually using a DIS setupwouldn't be the least bit bothered if a admin deleted it actually, S10ls,.. clearly the s10forum is just not far enough advanced to use this technology and its a waste of perfectly good space on a forum that could be filled with something else that not just a techno geek HARD ON yada yada fab us silly stupid people play with.. we should all just lebarons and learn what the hells up, actually i'm going to head back over to the syty side now and tell them they are missing the picture and STOP ALL DIS projects ITS A FAD we will all be going back to HEI soon and its only for ..umm techno geek hard on something or another's.

Well for an amazing waste of your time you sure as hell spent plenty of time typing up a gigantic response....if you're going to knock s10forum then why the F are you on this site then? All of s10forum sucks because someone is disagreeing with you in one thread, which by the way I tend to agree with just about everything crew cab has stated. Please do us a favor and do go over to the syty side from now on if you're going to act like you are 8 years old because someone is disagreeing with hard facts to back their standpoint...

[growns10]

You know what I find really funny... you guys keep talking and talking and talking... do something about it... lace up your boots, grab the gear and head out back for an old fashion @ss woopin. I am going to guess that no one steps up to the plate and post an article that shows any facts. Everyone can go on and on and on and have no solid facts. If you are trying to prove a point at least find something that is going to back you, or else step up and deal with it like a man. If I had to break this down so far I would put Brock and Jessie in one corner and the rest of you momma’s boys in the next corner. Right now chalk one up for Brock and Jessie… DING DING DING.

[brock1949]

I don't know what to say about the s10 forum anymore, at one point it was like everything was advancing as a group and then suddenly everyone got set in there ways and now no one is willing to try anything new.. but then again why would they, i mean its so easy to just fight and fight agaist any changes and say no it doesn't help anything.

You agreee with Crew cab guy.. yaa Common this is the guy basicaly saying what every automotive manifacture in the world has already converted to is a "techno geek hard on Fad",.. How am i supposed to take comments or any ideas from a guy who trys to just shoe horn a entire leap in technology into "techno geek hard on Fad". I'm sorry but if thats what this forum is coming down to then your right i probably won't be around much longer. I mean to sit back and say IF it sparks it burns all the fuel no mater what your spraying etc etc... Again how can anyone think this is true, Then tell me this if he's SOOO right and a spark is a spark and it burns ALL the fuel no mater what size or anything.. then someone better call MSD and tell them that the entire basis of there company is shit and tell them they could have saved alot of time and money by leaving it as 1 spark instead of 3 below 3000 and above 3000 we actually don't need the extra amps either they could just eliminate the entire box...Also let them know that the HVC II coil they sold me designed for High cylinder pressures and high reving motors was also a joke and no one else should run them..

Step back and take a look at the logic he's using to support this theory. Great he wrote 2 pages of crap so he could justify .. how did he say it.. spending his hard earned money on it..So great now he can feel all warm inside defending that he doesn't need to spend the money on it because its no good.....

"The MSD 8 Ignition Control is powerful enough to burn any exotic fuel mixture even in engines with massive compression ratios. The ignition produces extremely high energy sparks combined with a long duration spark series below 3,000 rpm. " Probably don't know what there talking about.. Crew cab could have saved them alot of time and money just letting the engineer know his NEWS FLASH that if it sparks it all burns..

So next time i talk to the guy (the one who CLEARLY works for commision) that built the ignition system for the team that runs this land speed record car with twin turbos who told me they were fighting for every last drop of ignition... They are also wasting there time and they really only need a spark PERIOD and not to worry about the gap it takes to make it spark..

http://diyautotune.com/images/racing...ek2006_004.jpg
http://diyautotune.com/images/racing...6/P1010081.jpg

Also i'm not acting like i'm 8, i just have very limited time to deal with this kinda crap, i've laid it out once.. he just wrote back with a bunch of dumb stuff, so i just don't know that i want to spend a ton of time writing back and forth with someone who doesn't have ANY means of prooving me wrong.. So unless he's ready to turbo his truck, run stock ign, then install DIS and compare each run, then write logs of repair history over a year period with each ign system then forgot about it, i and jesse will probably come out of this winter with DIS and maybe i'll take the time to start another murdering by starting a PRO DIS thread... and like i said this thread should just be deleted before someone who wants to learn something runs into a pile of steaming crap this thread has been turned into.

[brock1949]

And why is it everything in the 262 thead turns into a fight, The blowers and bottles sections the only thing they fight over is v8 vs v6... Its freakings nuts how many fights i see in the 262 threads..

[Chester_Lampwick]

Quote: Originally Posted by brock1949

And why is it everything in the 262 thead turns into a fight

Probably because of the nature of the engine itself. We love it and we hate it, all in the same breath.

I for one, was shocked to see a distributor cap in my step mom's '99. I am very comfortable with it however, it gives my nostalgia. I would have expected or preferred something else with less maintenance, surely I'll have to replace this every year or two. I do believe that you won't get any real gains by replacing it, so it'll stay. It just seems like a big lack of engineering on GM's part.

[brock1949]

Ya i agree, its hard to imagine its still in the newer vehicles and as far as i know its still in the newest trucks that still come with the 4.3L unless it was phased out. It think Gm doesn't wanna put anymore time into the 4.3L because they've got a inline 6,5,4 they would much rather put money into that is the future of Gm's small displacement motors.

I also realized something else of why this DIS is going over like a fart in church on this forum, EVERYONE here who's opposed DIS doesn't even have the old 8 wire HEI (or turbo, blower, spray or even high compression, high rpm motors) that S10LS, Syty's, And Myself have.. so of coarse its even easier to say its not worth while, because you wouldn't see much a gain of HP (probably better mpg and smoother running but those are only details) if your driving around a stock or mostly stock truck without boost, without meth injection, without high cylinder pressures, without high rpms.. as long as you keep a fresh cap, rotor and wires on it...So to end this.. everyone do what they want no one here was ready to be influence in any direction anyways.

[04Xtreme]

Quote: Originally Posted by brock1949

Ya i agree, its hard to imagine its still in the newer vehicles and as far as i know its still in the newest trucks that still come with the 4.3L unless it was phased out. It think Gm doesn't wanna put anymore time into the 4.3L because they've got a inline 6,5,4 they would much rather put money into that is the future of Gm's small displacement motors.

I also realized something else of why this DIS is going over like a fart in church on this forum, EVERYONE here who's opposed DIS doesn't even have the old 8 wire HEI (or turbo, blower, spray or even high compression, high rpm motors) that S10LS, Syty's, And Myself have.. so of coarse its even easier to say its not worth while, because you wouldn't see much a gain of HP (probably better mpg and smoother running but those are only details) if your driving around a stock or mostly stock truck without boost, without meth injection, without high cylinder pressures, without high rpms.. as long as you keep a fresh cap, rotor and wires on it...So to end this.. everyone do what they want no one here was ready to be influence in any direction anyways.

still in my 04

however, the newest 4.3s(base engine in the full sizes) is DIS equipted

[poconojoe]

I don't know what you guys could be fighting about, my 2.2 doesn't use a distributor and you all know how much HP they make and how smooth they run, LOL

PS I've had plenty of exposure to DIS and coil on plug and its purpose has very little to do with long life and smooth running motors.

[Crew Cab Sonoma]

Quote: Originally Posted by brock1949

Alright to get the party started, the troubles with my 99 were not installation error, gm parts for the first 5-6 times 3 times done by my cousin at the dealer, the rest of the time we started trying other wires etc for longer life, which helped..I don't even know where to go with this one because it is what it is and my 99 was not the only with problems and i don't feel like wasting my time talking about what you think and i do about this topic.

well, you are the only one ive heard having so many problems with caps and rotors. the vast majority others, including me, arent...

Quote:

Next is the LS1 setup has no dist. who gives a #$#^#$ if its got a spark plug wire... IT STILL DROPS THE CAP AND ROTOR.....

first, you claim plug wires were part of the problem, now you claim they arent...well, which is it???

Quote:

Next...ANY ignition system will have its problems, were not saying its NEVER going to break.. But i'll bet your left nut that it doesn't need a cap and rotor after 1500 miles.. hmmm or any part after 1500 miles.... And tell me, what more expensive a truck not running from ignition problems loosing me almost $200HR on a crew that was supposed to be working or buying parts to service a DIS once every 100k miles IF THAT...

first you claim the cap and rotor were good for 6-10K miles, now its only "1500 miles" your credibility is getting really stretched....

Quote:

.... that paragraph got a room of people laughing.. not sure where to start with that one either,.. your outlook and logic baffles me from time to time.

ahh, apparently you were the guest of honor at an "ignition system geniuses" symposium...

Quote:

So going on your theory if you have a spark ALL the fuel must ignite lol,,.. then sure if you fill the chamber with whatever you want it will ignite and burn all of it LMAO.. With logic like that i don't even know where to explain... Lets just say i spent 4 years working on race engines on karts watching coils, ignitions, plug ranges, gaps determine lap times up to a full second in change on a 19 second lap.. but screw it again it doesn't mater because IF IT SPARKS IT BURNS IT ALL.. i just gotta keep telling myself that...

thats not what i said or implied at all.... go back and read it again.... and try to get it right this time...
so, let me make sure ive got this right. you are still of the opinion that a hotter spark will give a more "complete" burn of the A/F mixture in the cylinder??? is that right?

must be from all that experience you gained from racing lawn mower engines, huh???

Quote:

Now onto my favorite part, where you start talking about the slop in the DIS systems and my friends working megasquirt.. this is by far where you step it up a notch and really start to tick me off..

Did i say this was the method i was using.. did he say this was the most accurate method,.. No i don't think so,.. Also your 100% right CLEARLY you know your stuff about megasquirt and these guys are making a killing off commission. working for.. umm Shit.. thats right this is a open source grass roots ECM and unless your selling the bags of parts to build them then your not making money.. But then again you knew that right ? No neither one of these guys works for anything to do with megasquirt, one designs ecms for a company in LA for old muscle cars making well over 300k a year (probably doesn't know what he's talking about though), the other has a shop building turbo cars and related projects.. They benefit in no WAY SHAPE OR FORM by talking to me until 2am about what were doing on all of our personal build,.. or when they spend hours writing wiring diagrams for my truck or working on base maps for free.

obviously, they are talking to you all night, trying to pick your brain for insight into new ign. system ideas....

Christina Augilera makes alot more than $250-300K a year.... maybe you should consult her for ign. system advice....

Quote:

Now the DIS system they use, doesn't use a dist. at all, that is just a system that someone tried and worked on and s10ls posted for anyone sick of HEI BS. The system they designed uses machined parts, crank pos. sensors, vr4 coil packs oh and they give this information out for free and the plans to do it .. total cost.. under 400 dollars using all new parts with MSD vr4 coil packs...

you still dont get it, do you? the accuracy of the ign. timing has little to do with whether it has a distributor, or DIS, but rather the resoluton of the crank trigger, and the sophistication of the electronics... if both systems use a crank trigger, its the computer that still controls exactly when the coil(s) fire...

Quote:

In the end i'm not here to try and start crap with a single person but if you wanna jump on s10ls giving him crap then on me you better work out some better angles then what your coming to this thread with now. Ya sure tell me to go screw myself or whatever your want, but anyone who thinks that if it sparks it burns all the fuel and there isn't ANYTHING left over no mater what your spraying or how high the cylinder pressure is.. I've got nothing for you.

ONE MORE TME: nobody "jumped on him" , slammed, attacked, persecuted, slandered him , called him names, insulted his mother, or questioned if his family tree had any branches, ect.... it was just a counterpoint. nothing more, nothing less...

Quote:

Don't spend a ton of time writing back a bunch of stuff or anything else, i doubt i check back to this thread it was by chance i even looked back tonight. I work 60-80 hrs a week, work on the truck, goto the gym 3 days a week, and have about a dozen other commitments a week. This is an amazing waste of my time and i feel bad for anyone who stumbles onto this thread hoping to learn anything about actually using a DIS setup. I wouldn't be the least bit bothered if a admin deleted it actually, S10ls,.. clearly the s10forum is just not far enough advanced to use this technology and its a waste of perfectly good space on a forum that could be filled with something else that not just a techno geek HARD ON yada yada fab us silly stupid people play with.. we should all just lebarons and learn what the hells up, actually i'm going to head back over to the syty side now and tell them they are missing the picture and STOP ALL DIS projects ITS A FAD we will all be going back to HEI soon and its only for ..umm techno geek hard on something or another's.

with your buisy schedule, its a wonder you have time to try to educate us at all...
with all those years of lawn mower engine experience, you clearly have far more ign. system knowledge, and insight than everyone else here combined....

its just a damned shame we arent all collectively smart enough here to fathom your immense knowledge and wisdom. i mean, after all, we`re just neanderthal/distributor types.... hopefully one day we will evolve...

even though i was just working on and being sent to classes on HEI`s and DIS systems while you were still in diapers...
but hey, what the hell do i know, right?

[s10ls]

you need to just give up man. you arent proving anything. you tell us to post rock hard proof. what about you? post something that proves your point. at least we have searched for articles, consulted with other forums, talked on the phone with numerous people (way more qualified than you appear to be) about this (brock more than i) and you post nothing but arguments. atleast we have attempted to post outside info to support our argument.

it seems that all you are basing your argument on is your real life (ie not from reading books) experience with your 13 second lebaron, yeah you have really taken an HEI to the ragged edge

for the love of god someone close this pathetic excuse for a thread

[Crew Cab Sonoma]

you know, i cant help but wonder why you two want this thread to go away so badly...

why should i look for articles to back up my claims? you two are the ones claiming there are gains to be had... not me. besides, your "experts" should have tons of dyno tests, ect. posted up somewhere to prove me wrong.... huh?
besides, most of my remarks are just plain common sense. stuff that should be apparent without saying.

as far as reading books, ect., let me just put it this way: both of you COMBINED have got a helluva lot of years ahead of you before you catch up with me... in hours of either book study, or real world dyno and track testing...
and i have enough automotive books and literature on hand to more than fill the beds of both of your trucks.... and mine...

as for my Lebaron, when either of you can post a better timeslip, you`ll be more fit to talk... but hey, it only had $600 in engine mods to get there, the original pistons, rings and camshaft, and a stock 3spd. auto transaxle w/ 3.06 final drive.

and ive had plenty of other, faster cars over the years. most of which did have HEI igns. that have indeed been pushed to the edge....

but you guys are the experts. so, go ahead and do your DIS conversions.
PROVE ME WRONG....
go ahead... do it. i dare ya...

[MINTSICK]

Quote: Originally Posted by Crew Cab Sonoma

you know, i cant help but wonder why you two want this thread to go away so badly...

why should i look for articles to back up my claims? you two are the ones claiming there are gains to be had... not me. besides, your "experts" should have tons of dyno tests, ect. posted up somewhere to prove me wrong.... huh?
besides, most of my remarks are just plain common sense. stuff that should be apparent without saying.

as far as reading books, ect., let me just put it this way: both of you COMBINED have got a helluva lot of years ahead of you before you catch up with me... in hours of either book study, or real world dyno and track testing...
and i have enough automotive books and literature on hand to more than fill the beds of both of your trucks.... and mine...

as for my Lebaron, when either of you can post a better timeslip, you`ll be more fit to talk... but hey, it only had $600 in engine mods to get there, the original pistons, rings and camshaft, and a stock 3spd. auto transaxle w/ 3.06 final drive.

and ive had plenty of other, faster cars over the years. most of which did have HEI igns. that have indeed been pushed to the edge....

but you guys are the experts. so, go ahead and do your DIS conversions.
PROVE ME WRONG....
go ahead... do it. i dare ya...

[s10ls]

Quote: Originally Posted by Crew Cab Sonoma

you know, i cant help but wonder why you two want this thread to go away so badly...

why should i look for articles to back up my claims? you two are the ones claiming there are gains to be had... not me. besides, your "experts" should have tons of dyno tests, ect. posted up somewhere to prove me wrong.... huh?
besides, most of my remarks are just plain common sense. stuff that should be apparent without saying.

as far as reading books, ect., let me just put it this way: both of you COMBINED have got a helluva lot of years ahead of you before you catch up with me... in hours of either book study, or real world dyno and track testing...
and i have enough automotive books and literature on hand to more than fill the beds of both of your trucks.... and mine...

as for my Lebaron, when either of you can post a better timeslip, you`ll be more fit to talk... but hey, it only had $600 in engine mods to get there, the original pistons, rings and camshaft, and a stock 3spd. auto transaxle w/ 3.06 final drive.

and ive had plenty of other, faster cars over the years. most of which did have HEI igns. that have indeed been pushed to the edge....

but you guys are the experts. so, go ahead and do your DIS conversions.
PROVE ME WRONG....
go ahead... do it. i dare ya...

i want this thread to go away cause its whored beyond being useful to the forum. its a waste of bandwidth as it sits now.

if you would read, i am not making claims based on my own experience. i am mearly stating what i have learned from others. so simmer down before you get your panties in a bunch.

Quote: Originally Posted by Crew Cab Sonoma

when either of you can post a better timeslip, you`ll be more fit to talk

do you mean better than your lebaron? you shouldnt assume things. i have gone alot faster than your "low 13." in a car i helped build and tuned myself. not in my s10 yet though, it has yet to go to the track.

brock will be putting down the fastest times on this forum for a 4.3

Quote: Originally Posted by MINTSICK

another quality post in this awesome thread lol

[brock1949]

wow, this is amazing..

Crewcab... i have nothing left for you.. go pimp your lebaron and travel the world to tell how great it is... Hold Pro HEI ignition conventions live the life style...

LMAO you have the nuts to make fun of kart racing because briggs makes one of the motors we ran while your driving around with a "hard on" in some 80's pile that happens to have a turbo in it..That my freinds is irony... Go talk shit to some of the guys i ran with that were on 250 shifter karts or even the raptor 3 briggs motors in karts or drag setups.. just relax knowing the "lawn mower engine" (which of coarse how did it go.. you've been eating shit out of diapers since .. wait... i forgot how that went but i guess they used raptor horizontal shaft motors on some type of mower... maybe thats back when a lebaron was cool... probably not..) regaurdless they will stomp your 10.24 second 4 door .. lol

I'm done talking about DIS, HEI, or anything else that sparks and isn't connected to crew cabs nuts.. so from here on out i only post funny stuff.. well stuff funny to people who don't have 1100 dollars sunk into a peice of the 80's thats probably some shade of green with a turbo on it.

[MINTSICK]

[Chester_Lampwick]

Unfortunately the <A href="http://fathom.org/teemingmillions/flamegenerator.html">flame mail generator </A>isn't working. Most items apply.....

[Chester_Lampwick]

Unfortunately the <A href="http://fathom.org/teemingmillions/flamegenerator.html">flame mail generator </A>isn't working. Most items apply....

[Chester_Lampwick]

http://fathom.org/teemingmillions/flamegenerator.html

[s10ls]

lol that link is funny as hell. that was the single best post in this thread

brock have you given any thought to trailering your truck here for slamfest? we can hit up the test and tune night at bradenton raceway. i plan to take my truck there soon, though a second trip for me would be great after do some more fine tuning from the datalogs i will be taking from the first trip.

i am spending the next week of my life datalogging then tuning in preparation for the first trip to the track. also send me the link to the MS software (i accidently deleted what software link you sent me earlier) and i'll write you a turbo base map for your truck