t56 swap list, everything you need to know!

[tippmann243]

Quote: Originally Posted by llorracs93s10

hmm well it wouldnt go with my V6, but i was planning on swaping a 305 into it, so it wouldbe the 305 with the t-56 tranny and 3.42 gears, but maybe i would just do the 3.73 gears. Point is, i want decent mpgs, and thats why i just dont do 4.11's.

the 4.3 has more power then the 305 so your acuttly hurting yourself swapping that motor in

[llorracs93s10]

Quote: Originally Posted by tippmann243

the 4.3 has more power then the 305 so your acuttly hurting yourself swapping that motor in

the motor that i would swap into it ran a best 14.2 on the 1/4 in my buddys' s10. Not bad i dont think for the 305

[daevans315]

My parts gathering is going well. I have a t56 out of a 1997 Fbody. It came with a McLeod Street Twin Clutch setup. Probably a little over kill for my 200 hp 4.3. I'm still debating on if I should put it in or sell it and get a OEM setup.

The 3 parts I'm still lacking are the starter, master cylinder, and the pedals. I want to make sure the 2.8 starter starter is going to have the right teeth count for the LT1 flywheel and bolt to the 4.3 block. (it seems to good to be true.)

Any hints on where to get a pedal setup. The local junk yards around here pretty much suck so I'm going to have to go online. S-10warehouse has some over priced ones listed from time to time, but they don't seem to have all the brackets. any other suggestions?

Are there any years of master cylinders that are going to be better for me than others?

This is going to be going into a 1997 auto.

[tippmann243]

Quote: Originally Posted by daevans315

My parts gathering is going well. I have a t56 out of a 1997 Fbody. It came with a McLeod Street Twin Clutch setup. Probably a little over kill for my 200 hp 4.3. I'm still debating on if I should put it in or sell it and get a OEM setup.

The 3 parts I'm still lacking are the starter, master cylinder, and the pedals. I want to make sure the 2.8 starter starter is going to have the right teeth count for the LT1 flywheel and bolt to the 4.3 block. (it seems to good to be true.)

Any hints on where to get a pedal setup. The local junk yards around here pretty much suck so I'm going to have to go online. S-10warehouse has some over priced ones listed from time to time, but they don't seem to have all the brackets. any other suggestions?

Are there any years of master cylinders that are going to be better for me than others?

This is going to be going into a 1997 auto.

for a second gen its gonna be tuff to find pedals. since i had a 1st gen i lucked out the first time and had a 5 speed then when i was doing the blazer i found a stripped noma at the junkyard with the pedals just shilling there.

i would suggets a local junkyard or ebay. or maybe some one parting out a truck.

ill keep my eyes open for a second gen with a 5 speed. prolly gonna come form a 2.2 5 speed pickup

[sixspeeddemon]

If the first gen pedals are the same, I'll send you mine for shipping. I'd be really interested in the clutch if you want to sell it. I'm trying to get the Ram twin-disk, and it's been on B/O for over a month already, and racing season is coming quick!!

[daevans315]

Quote: Originally Posted by sixspeeddemon

If the first gen pedals are the same, I'll send you mine for shipping. I'd be really interested in the clutch if you want to sell it. I'm trying to get the Ram twin-disk, and it's been on B/O for over a month already, and racing season is coming quick!!

This is a older model clutch. It is before the adjustable master cylinder and it appears to be a steel flywheel. All I know about it is it was working when it was removed. I can look in the edge and see some clutch surface left. They look good and thick but I have nothing to gauge off of. This will be heavy to ship. I'd say ~40 pounds. If you are still interested PM me with a price. A quick google didn't find anything used to go off of for pricing. Also, if you have a LT1 flywheel and clutch maybe we can work out a trade.

On the pedals, I doubt they are the same. Also, I have found posts that the under dash framing changed between 97 and 98. Does anybody know if the pedals did also, or just that huge aluminum dash brace?

[sixspeeddemon]

yeah, i'll have to look around tonight when i get home, i know i have a brand new stock replacement disc and a couple of covers. I think the flywheel I have is already cut too short though, I'll check.

[the_dam_man]

btw if anyone is looking for a billet steel centerforce flywheel for a 2pc rear main let me know I have a brand new one I need to get rid of

[Exporter]

Is it true that you can use an lsx flywheel on an lsx swap? I know it will bolt up but my question is about the balance. As far as i can tell our stock flywheels are external balance while the lsx is internal. Ive had the swap for a while now using the 4.3 flywheel but its starting to chatter and my tranny grinds so i gotta pull it out soon. I figured i would throw in a stock lsx flywheel while im at it and get rid of the stupid 50 lbs flywheel. My truck is a reg cab 2wd so i really dont think i need the weight to help pull out. Im just nervous about buying a new flywheel and putting the whole thing together to find out it vibrates.

[tippmann243]

Quote: Originally Posted by Exporter

Is it true that you can use an lsx flywheel on an lsx swap? I know it will bolt up but my question is about the balance. As far as i can tell our stock flywheels are external balance while the lsx is internal. Ive had the swap for a while now using the 4.3 flywheel but its starting to chatter and my tranny grinds so i gotta pull it out soon. I figured i would throw in a stock lsx flywheel while im at it and get rid of the stupid 50 lbs flywheel. My truck is a reg cab 2wd so i really dont think i need the weight to help pull out. Im just nervous about buying a new flywheel and putting the whole thing together to find out it vibrates.

ive never done an lsx swap, but thats some of the info i gathered.

as far as i know they are both a nuetral balance flywheel

[sixspeeddemon]

should both be internal balance.

[Exporter]

Thanks guys i just wanted to make sure before i ordered the setup. I thought the stocker was internal balance and ive had it out a couple times and never noticed a weight on it. The thing that throws me off is the fact that summit lists both internal and external balanced flywheels for my truck.

[Exporter]

Now i'm really confused. I read the holy grail article and it says all 4.3s are externally balanced. From what i can gather the 4.3 is externally balanced as well as the lt1. That would explain why the lt1 flywheel works when you guys do the lt1 swap. However, the ls1 is internally balanced. If only i could find a 168 tooth external balance aluminum flywheel.

[the_dam_man]

the LT1 is internal balance.

[tippmann243]

alomst every gm motor accept the 400sb is internally balanced

[daevans315]

Well guys, I'm starting the swap tonight. I think I've gotten almost everything. The clutch pedals are the last item and they are in UPS's hands, ETA tomorrow. We will see how it goes.

[daevans315]

Well I didn't get started on the swap until Last night. Everything is apart and I've started putting back together. Things I've learned:

1. 1995 clutch mounting is VERY different than 1997 clutch mounting. 95 is a huge aluminum block. 97 is a small stamped steel brace.
2. Chevy wants $275 for a small stamped steel brace.
3. Chevy parts guys will hang up on you if you threaten their first born.
4. The 2.8 starter is a VERY tight fit. It will go in but attaching the wires is a *ich. I don't THINK it will hit anything during engine torque but its 25-50% bigger than my old one.
5. Torque converter to flywheel bolts can be rounded easily.
6. Torque converter to flywheel bolts can be cut with a saw-all.
7. Manual flywheel's are thicker than automatic flywheels at the crank. This necessitates longer bolts as well.

[daevans315]

Ok. Now im in need of some help. I just bolted the LT1 flywheel up to my motor. Its an inch smaller in diameter than my automatic one I took off. The starter is an inch away from engaging. I thought they sent me the wrong flywheel but the LT1 twin street is the same diameter as the stock LT1 and an inch smaller than my automatic. Whats going on here? I must be missing something.

Pics

[daevans315]

Ok. I've googled this to death and here is what I've found.
The LT1 is a 12 3/4" flywheel 153 tooth count.
I have a 14" 168 tooth flexplate.
These 2 are not going to swap. Moving the 2.8 starter to the smaller flywheel is not going to work as on of the mounting bolts for the starter would then go through one of the bell housing mounting bolts.

I found this cool chart at the very bottom of this web page.
http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/perform...CATID=913.html


There appears that there is a solution for me. The part number 10105832 is a 14" flywheel. 168 tooth count (no starter swap) and says it will take an 11" clutch, which the LT1 is... Can anybody verify this information for me? What flywheels is everybody using? Is this because I have an automatic? I can't believe that the block are different between the automatic and manual.


EDIT : Found the specs on 10105832. The mounting holes for the presure plate are 12 5/8th. my LT1 pressure plate is 11 3/4. So That is a no go on that part. Still searching.

[tippmann243]

it would help if we knew what you were working on

[daevans315]

Quote: Originally Posted by tippmann243

it would help if we knew what you were working on

Sorry, its back a couple pages. Its a 97 4.3 auto.

Looks like the LT1 starter is my solution. From my reading its what moves the starter in for the smaller flywheel. the 2.8 starter is still setup for the larger flywheel. I will be picking one up tomorrow to verify.

[sixspeeddemon]

I had to use a Mini starter, which was way cheaper than the LT-1 starter anyways.
Which clutch did you end-up using?

[daevans315]

Quote: Originally Posted by sixspeeddemon

I had to use a Mini starter, which was way cheaper than the LT-1 starter anyways.
Which clutch did you end-up using?

I just went with a OEM replacement RAM. My plan is to sell the street twin and recoup some costs. Right now, without selling the twin, im at about 2500 I think.

[tippmann243]

Quote: Originally Posted by daevans315

Sorry, its back a couple pages. Its a 97 4.3 auto.

Looks like the LT1 starter is my solution. From my reading its what moves the starter in for the smaller flywheel. the 2.8 starter is still setup for the larger flywheel. I will be picking one up tomorrow to verify.

i think you got the wrong starter. since the 2.8 and the lt1 both use a 153 tooth flywheel

[daevans315]

Quote: Originally Posted by tippmann243

i think you got the wrong starter. since the 2.8 and the lt1 both use a 153 tooth flywheel

That is possible. The part # on the box matches what autozone lists for the 1988 2.8 but it wouldn't be the first time that they have had a wrong part listed.

[daevans315]

Well I'll be drilling and tapping for a lt1 style starter. I could not find a 2.8 starter at any of the 3 auto parts stores that had the right offset for the distance from the bolt hole closest to the block to the center of the starter gear. All the ones I found, from the late 80's, had the same off set as my factory 4.3 starter. The LT1 starter had ~3/4th of an inch less offset from the block mounting bolt to the centerline of the gear. My guess, and its only a guess, is that the 2.8 block mounting is different and it moves the starter closer to the flywheel to make the difference.

So on to drilling and tapping.. I have a plan to remove the material from the pan that is needed to let the starter mount flush, however the bellhousing mounting flange on the pan is right in the way of getting a straight shot in to drill and tap. I assume people are removing the pan to do this part? or have you done it with a right angle drill?

[sixspeeddemon]

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=SUM%2D829100&N=70 0+4294925143+4294839066+4294908216+4294840140+115& autoview=sku
Will bolt up, save a lot of time. My 2.8 starter would have worked, but wouldn't clear the bellhousing. Could start the engine(bump over at least), but couldn't bolt up the trans.
This one also has a notch in it already that clears most pans.

[daevans315]

Quote: Originally Posted by sixspeeddemon

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=SUM%2D829100&N=70 0+4294925143+4294839066+4294908216+4294840140+115& autoview=sku
Will bolt up, save a lot of time. My 2.8 starter would have worked, but wouldn't clear the bellhousing. Could start the engine(bump over at least), but couldn't bolt up the trans.
This one also has a notch in it already that clears most pans.

Thats not a bad choice. I've got a line on a LT1 starter though already. Now the decision is, mod the pan or the starter flange.. I had assumed the pan, but the starter might be easier, now that I see the notch in this one.

Do you remember what year 2.8 you were looking at? I'd like to get this all settled for the how to.

[daevans315]

Well just an update. I got an LT1 starter up there. I went ahead and cut the bell housing flange off the oil pan below the starter. It made drilling and tapping the bolt much easier. Its up there and bumped the motor over so I think we are good to go. I got the pedals in, the master cylinder hole cut and mounted and the dash back together last night so I should be sticking the tranny in tonight.
We will see if I get it on the road by the weekend. I was kind of shooting for making an autocross this weekend but its 100 miles away. I'm not sure if I want that to be my shake down cruse or not.

[sixspeeddemon]

Mine was an 88 w/mt

[daevans315]

Well its in and I drove it to work today. I still have a few issues to work out, but its drivable.

1. I can peg the spedo at 105 at about 3000RPM in 2nd. The tranny I got was supposed to already have the 40 tooth ring in it but I didn't pull it apart to verify. I guess I should have. I also swapped in different gauge pod with a tack so that could also be a issue.

2. The starter isn't shimmed quite right yet. I still get a "zing" after it starts about half the time. Hopefully shims will take care of it and its not my new mounting bolt hole.

3. The clutch safety switch is still just wired together so it thinks the clutch is in all the time. FYI -- If you have driven a vehicle as an automatic for 11 years and 140,000 miles. Even if you just spent a week swapping it to a stick, the clutch safety switch is a good idea to hook up. I already tried started it once with the clutch out and in gear. No damage done. Luckily I'm a religious emergency brake user.

4. I get a gear growl or vibration under WOT in 1st an a little in 2nd. I've been taking it easy on the new clutch so I'm not real sure on this one but it a little worrying. When I really start putting the torque through it something doesn't sound happy. I'll let you know more once the clutch gets seated.


All and all, I'm very happy with the swap. Its fun to drive and I think its going to let me keep the vehicle for a good while longer. It seems to be fine off the line with my 3.73 rear end. And will pull hills in 6th at 60 mph without lugging. I'm running 255 45 17's all the way around and the ratio seems tolerable, at least for now. My autocross tires are 245 45 16's so that should give more some more gear off the line when racing.

Its well over budget.. I'm sure I've spent $2500 and maybe over 3K. I don't know if I want to start adding things up or not.

[sixspeeddemon]

Mine makes that noise too, but it's held up for 6 seasons of racing that way.

Don't add up reciepts, you'll scare everyone off!!

[1BadElky]

will a t5 bellhousing fit a t56? I want to run a mechanichal linkage if I use this trans.

what about a t5 tailhousing with mechanical speedo cable?

[tippmann243]

Quote: Originally Posted by 1BadElky

will a t5 bellhousing fit a t56? I want to run a mechanichal linkage if I use this trans.

what about a t5 tailhousing with mechanical speedo cable?

no to both questions

[sixspeeddemon]

If you want to run Mechanical linkage, your only option I know of is to run a modular bellhousing from McLeod and switch it over to a regular style clutch. The 93&94 T56's(some of them) have mechanical speedos on them.

[tippmann243]

Quote: Originally Posted by sixspeeddemon

If you want to run Mechanical linkage, your only option I know of is to run a modular bellhousing from McLeod and switch it over to a regular style clutch. The 93&94 T56's(some of them) have mechanical speedos on them.

no gm t56 ever had a mechanical speedo. some after market t-56's did though

[1BadElky]

I'd stick with OEM because I want the .50 OD unless the gearsets will swap

[the_dam_man]

you cna run a T5 or munchie bell with a mcloude adaptor plate. pretty much how I have the T5 in my Fairlane. you use the stock clutch setup for the chassis/motor and just put a different trans behind the bell. it works but it is kinda bulky.

[tippmann243]

Quote: Originally Posted by the_dam_man

you cna run a T5 or munchie bell with a mcloude adaptor plate. pretty much how I have the T5 in my Fairlane. you use the stock clutch setup for the chassis/motor and just put a different trans behind the bell. it works but it is kinda bulky.

i think some places make an adpater for the ls based trans to do something like this

[daevans315]

Well I'm slowly checking things off my broken list.

1. Starter is shimmed up correctly, sounds much better now.
2. Spedo turned out to be a bad flash from pcm4less.com. Swapped back to my automatic ECM and the spedo is correct. The Check Engine light is on with about 12 codes relating to "where the hell is my tranny" but the spedo is right. So that is getting sent back for a second try.

3. My growl is my exhaust hitting the cross member. When under torque the cat hits the cross member and transmits a very ugly noise to the rest of the truck. Easy fix, just have to get up the desire to crawl back under there again.

So just the clutch switch to run inside and the reverse lockout to hook up to a button somewhere.

[tippmann243]

your exhaust is either super close to the x memeber or you have busted motor mounts

[daevans315]

Quote: Originally Posted by tippmann243

your exhaust is either super close to the x memeber or you have busted motor mounts

Its to close, I thought it would be. Its a 1997 exhaust setup with a 1995 cross member. The Cat was smaller and further back in 95 and the cross member went under the exhaust. in 97 the cross member was redesigned to go over the exhaust to make room for the bigger cat. I'll figure something out.

[tippmann243]

Quote: Originally Posted by daevans315

Its to close, I thought it would be. Its a 1997 exhaust setup with a 1995 cross member. The Cat was smaller and further back in 95 and the cross member went under the exhaust. in 97 the cross member was redesigned to go over the exhaust to make room for the bigger cat. I'll figure something out.

cats are over rated. mufflers that look like cats for the win

[drperry]

So now we just need to get the output shaft to work with the transfer case...

My '05 Blazer already has a 5 speed... But according to what little information I could find... It's only rated for 285ft/lbs of torque...

Not gonna hold up to my future 5.3L, .

I'm kinda partial to the 4x4 as well, so.... Yeah. Hacksaw + duct tape on the tail housing?

[tippmann243]

Quote: Originally Posted by drperry

So now we just need to get the output shaft to work with the transfer case...

My '05 Blazer already has a 5 speed... But according to what little information I could find... It's only rated for 285ft/lbs of torque...

Not gonna hold up to my future 5.3L, .

I'm kinda partial to the 4x4 as well, so.... Yeah. Hacksaw + duct tape on the tail housing?

already been done

[drperry]

Good to know!

Time to get searching.

[daevans315]

I spoke with Jessey at Wait4Me Performance about my speedometer being off. He assumed that I was leaving the T56 reductor ring in the tranny and set the calibration for Camaro.

He is taking care of setting mine back correct for the S-10 one but if you don't mind doing a flash, you don't need the ring for JTR. We might want to update the HOWTO in the beginning with that info now that the JTR ones are no longer available.

I've got about 500 miles on the swap now. Second tank was only 23 mpg but I've had my foot down pretty hard, it was still all city driving, and im running on the stock program and computer with the Check Engine light on. Things are coming together. Got the exhaust fixed so it isn't making noise now. ITs way nicer to drive now. I put in a B&M ripper shifter. Very nice I must say. Although now my shifter is a little short. I think I might extend it up an inch or so or drop the console down. (I know... put in a short shifter and then make the shifter longer kind of defeats the purpose but the feel of the B&M is so much nicer than the OEM one.)

I did notice my first screw-up. My dome light now doesn't work with either of the doors open. However the key in the ignition dinger works..?? The dome light does work with the switch.
I'm guessing somewhere I just didn't get harness back together quite right.. or a wire got pinched but I'm not sure where to start. Time to get out the service manuals and figure out that wiring mess.

[tippmann243]

Quote: Originally Posted by daevans315

I spoke with Jessey at Wait4Me Performance about my speedometer being off. He assumed that I was leaving the T56 reductor ring in the tranny and set the calibration for Camaro.

He is taking care of setting mine back correct for the S-10 one but if you don't mind doing a flash, you don't need the ring for JTR. We might want to update the HOWTO in the beginning with that info now that the JTR ones are no longer available.

I've got about 500 miles on the swap now. Second tank was only 23 mpg but I've had my foot down pretty hard, it was still all city driving, and im running on the stock program and computer with the Check Engine light on. Things are coming together. Got the exhaust fixed so it isn't making noise now. ITs way nicer to drive now. I put in a B&M ripper shifter. Very nice I must say. Although now my shifter is a little short. I think I might extend it up an inch or so or drop the console down. (I know... put in a short shifter and then make the shifter longer kind of defeats the purpose but the feel of the B&M is so much nicer than the OEM one.)

I did notice my first screw-up. My dome light now doesn't work with either of the doors open. However the key in the ignition dinger works..?? The dome light does work with the switch.
I'm guessing somewhere I just didn't get harness back together quite right.. or a wire got pinched but I'm not sure where to start. Time to get out the service manuals and figure out that wiring mess.

first gen guys still need the conversion gear, plus ive got a small batch made up, just gotta get my shit back together and do some testing on them

[the_dam_man]

Well find out if your conversion gears are working!!!

I might be dropping my truck off in TN to get a 5.7 swap done on it and that would be a perfect time to redo the speedo.

I welded up the o2 bung on my revised y-pipe tonight. so it is ready to bolt back in there. still need to drill adn tap the starter bolt hole in the block but figured I would try getting it started with what I have now (rain season is almost here and would liek to have wheels incase it rains....ever)

I ended up with a summit brand mini starter in mine also. I would tap it now but think I might see if I can find an extended tap so I can tap through the starter as a guide (and a hunk of bushing to use as a drill guide)

one thing I do have to say is that a shifter in the forward position (a mod you have to pay for) would make for a near stock looking install.

So did anyone else switch to a later automatic consol with the cup holders up front?

[tippmann243]

it will work i just need to do a bit of R/D to determine how far the sensor needs to be spaced from the trans