Troubleshoot your problem...

SlammedDime · 11-14-2003, 03:51 AM

I have a prime example of how to troubleshoot a problem of your own, and maybe learn something on your own. For those of you interested, keep reading. For those who think they know it all, keep reading. For those that have a problem and run straight to the forum for help, KEEP READING.

So I hop in my truck to go to my womans house, air up the truck like normal, except this time, the pass front fill valve keeps filling after I let go of the switch. Of course I'm pissed, cuz now i gotta fix something....but what to fix??

There are a couple of different things that could be wrong, so I go over them quickly in my head:

Busted switch, first comes to mind.
A possible short in the wire somewhere, causing the valve to stay open is another possiblity that quickly comes to mind.
Lastly, something is stuck in the valve, preventing it from closing all the way.

Well, two of these problems are easy to test for in one shot. Since I have quick disconnect electrical connectors on my valves, all I have to do is disconnect the wire on the fill valve. So I do, and I go and flip the dump switch. The bag of course deflates.... then fills right back up. That leaves only one possibility... something is stuck in the valve, so I need to crack it open and fix it.

Another way, in the case anyhow, to quickly determine that it is not an electrical problem, is by the nature of the mishap. The bag is not filling back up at the speed it would if the valve was all the way open (switch was hit). That also leads to the third option, that something is stuck in the valve.

Okay, so you may be asking, "WTF did he make this thread?" I'll tell ya. I come in here and work this bag forum on a daily basis, and help people with problems they have, and I also talk to many people a day on AIM or in the forum chat room and help them out. I try and step them through this process, so that they can also learn how to find and fix problems on their own. I'm not sayin I don't like helping you guys, cuz I do, I love it; however, for me personally, I feel a lot better when I have a problem, and I fix it, THEN I make a thread about it, explaining what happened, and how I fixed it. It not only makes you more knowledgable on the subject, but it also gives you an opportunity to help others that may have a similar problem.

So, next time you have a problem, see if you can tackle it on your own, even if that means doin a lil quick research (the forum, or google, etc) and finding out how something works. Determine the problem, identify the possible causes, then, by process of elimination, dial it down to what it could be / is. :thumbup:

SlammedDime · 11-14-2003, 03:19 PM

Welp.... there was somethin stuck in there, just like I had thought.

It was a little brass shaving. How it got there, I have no idea. But I got it out, and got the valve assembled, and everything works fine now. I took some pics of the valve disassembly and assembly in case anyone cares to see how these things look on the inside. I also came to a conclusion on how Mitch (98sdime) was able to push 275-300 PSI through the valve without it freezing, but I'm not even gonna try to explain that one.

SlammedDime · 11-14-2003, 03:21 PM

that first pic is a comparison of a 1/2" valve to the 3/8" valve. I will be swapping out my front fills this x-mas.

SlammedDime · 11-14-2003, 03:22 PM

SlammedDime · 11-14-2003, 03:25 PM

stinkynathan · 11-14-2003, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SlammedDime
I also came to a conclusion on how Mitch (98sdime) was able to push 275-300 PSI through the valve without it freezing, but I'm not even gonna try to explain that one.

do explain......

if not here, #s-10 for sure

later,
nate

SlammedDime · 11-14-2003, 03:31 PM

And another....

SlammedDime · 11-14-2003, 03:32 PM

Lastly...

joakwin · 11-14-2003, 03:34 PM

i liked to know how he pushed that much psi thur a valve

SlammedDime · 11-14-2003, 03:39 PM

Aight... gimme a few minutes to type it up.

98sdime · 11-14-2003, 03:42 PM

SlammedDime · 11-14-2003, 03:51 PM

Quick physics lesson:
You have an area of high pressure (the air supply, right before the diaphram of the valve), and an area of low pressure (the bag, or right after the valve), and a piece of material that can withstand the force (the rubber diaphram).

The way physics works, the diaphram will be sucked against the low pressure area, sealing it off from the high pressure area. This is what prevents your valves from leaking. All the solenoid does in this case is pulls the diaphram back from the low pressure area and allows the air to flow.

Now... onto the explanation:
If you ever tear apart an SMC valve, and look at the diaphram, you will notice a little hole (not quite visible in my pics), but its there. This hole allows air to get to the top side of the diaphram to make a sure seal around the oriface stays closed when there is pressure. The higher the pressure, the greater the seal, and the more force needed to open the valve.

In Mitch's case, he just happened to get enough power flowing to the coil in the solenoid, that it was still able to pull the diaphram away from oriface, and the valve still worked.

DON'T TAKE THIS AS EVERYONE GO OUT AND RUN 300 PSI TO YOUR SMC VALVE. I do not recommend it at all. Sure the valve casing will stay intact, but you may damage the coil, and will have to have it replaced, or get a new valve.

I think I just about covered it. If I'm wrong, and you can prove it, please say somethin.

98sdime · 11-14-2003, 03:59 PM

so at least someone believes I was runnin that much Psi...

***AVTekk*** · 11-14-2003, 05:28 PM

Uh...so youre saying hes pushing more voltage than normal? I could have told you that, because he says it can only run high psi with the engine running, ie the altenator pushing out a higher voltage.

If thats all there was, then why did you go into explaining holes in the diaphram and high and low pressure?

zY · 11-14-2003, 05:44 PM

Heh, i thought that was pretty obvious too.

SlammedDime · 11-14-2003, 05:53 PM

I was just explainin how the damn thing worked, so maybe it would educate some people. I knew about him sayin only when the engine was running, but I don't think many people understood why, so I gave them an explantion, rather than sayin, 'It just can'.

Antics03 · 11-15-2003, 01:10 AM

hey, what sized bit did you use to drill into your T's or did you some how buy them like that?

***suicidedoors.com*** · 11-15-2003, 01:48 AM

i need SlammedDime here workin the phones.

so when you movin to indiana? need a job?

SlammedDime · 11-15-2003, 03:05 AM

02BLZRX - I bought the tees like that from IRSd_mini. OMG are they a life saver in keeping things simple. I can't recall the price of 'em off hand, but it was worth it. If you know how to make your own threads... or have access to a drill press... give it a shot... get a tap/die set, and do it yourself, with 1/8" NPT threads.

Jason -

It'd be coo to move to indiana; however, I'm kinda locked into my skoolin so I can work for the FBI

and yes... I DO NEED A JOB!!!! lol... my current one sucks, and I can't support my habbit enuf

lol

***AVTekk*** · 11-15-2003, 04:08 AM

I drill/tap the ports on my T's for gauges, if ya want to do it yourself youll need a 1/8" 27 NPT tap and a letter R drill bit. I like to do it myself because it gives me control on how its gonna look and assemble, and using 1 part for multiple purposes keeps my stock down..

luvinitlow · 11-17-2003, 01:20 AM

i find runnin my valves thro relays provide enuf votage wit the truck runnin to hit 300 psi...maybe 240 when it is off...two years still rollin stong...keepin my fingers crossed...i even put co2 thro them for long periods of time...tho its not good for them,i havent burned one yet...i use dual 10 mm.....

SlammedDime · 11-17-2003, 01:31 AM

Actually.... SMC valves are made for Water, Dry air, Turbine oil, C02, Nitrogen, and Freon.

chevy_95 · 05-21-2009, 05:13 PM

I Have 1995 S10 2.2l I Have Short Some Where If I Dont Start The Truck In Three Day The Battory Will Be Dead What Could It Be Someone help Me

Patawick · 05-21-2009, 05:53 PM

wow.. this is the oldest yet! Is something left on all time? radar or phone charger for chance?

**hamagc** · 05-21-2009, 07:13 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by chevy_95

I Have 1995 S10 2.2l I Have Short Some Where If I Dont Start The Truck In Three Day The Battory Will Be Dead What Could It Be Someone help Me

check out the electrical section on the forum, you'll find lots of help there.

for the rest of the thread,

good job guys!!

Derek1387 · 05-21-2009, 07:36 PM

holy old thread bat man.... i want to know what he searched for when he found this

**hamagc** · 05-22-2009, 12:13 PM

lol holy cow, didn't even look at the date!

Rahlee · 03-10-2010, 01:08 PM

hey i have a little problem, insted of trying to figure on my own coming to u for some info
My truck aired up fine went driving now the pass front wont dump or layout. cant find the problem

Patawick · 03-10-2010, 02:54 PM

does the valve get power when u hit the switch lol

Rahlee · 03-11-2010, 06:21 AM

i found the problem. man since i got this the had to fix alot of things on the truck. the front wasnt done right. all the valves get power. it aired up but the left front didnt dump. but now some switches didnt work. but i found that the wire on the one dump came loose. the guy i got this from didnt do things right or finish one thing before starting another

cpolaris502 · 03-11-2010, 09:41 AM

Hmm, and what did the OP say about people coming straight to the forum for help before taking a look at the problem?

11-14-2003, 03:51 AM	#1
SlammedDime Registered User Age: 26 Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 13,717 Location: Glendale, AZ User is: OffLine	Troubleshoot your problem... I have a prime example of how to troubleshoot a problem of your own, and maybe learn something on your own. For those of you interested, keep reading. For those who think they know it all, keep reading. For those that have a problem and run straight to the forum for help, KEEP READING. So I hop in my truck to go to my womans house, air up the truck like normal, except this time, the pass front fill valve keeps filling after I let go of the switch. Of course I'm pissed, cuz now i gotta fix something....but what to fix?? There are a couple of different things that could be wrong, so I go over them quickly in my head: Busted switch, first comes to mind. A possible short in the wire somewhere, causing the valve to stay open is another possiblity that quickly comes to mind. Lastly, something is stuck in the valve, preventing it from closing all the way. Well, two of these problems are easy to test for in one shot. Since I have quick disconnect electrical connectors on my valves, all I have to do is disconnect the wire on the fill valve. So I do, and I go and flip the dump switch. The bag of course deflates.... then fills right back up. That leaves only one possibility... something is stuck in the valve, so I need to crack it open and fix it. Another way, in the case anyhow, to quickly determine that it is not an electrical problem, is by the nature of the mishap. The bag is not filling back up at the speed it would if the valve was all the way open (switch was hit). That also leads to the third option, that something is stuck in the valve. Okay, so you may be asking, "WTF did he make this thread?" I'll tell ya. I come in here and work this bag forum on a daily basis, and help people with problems they have, and I also talk to many people a day on AIM or in the forum chat room and help them out. I try and step them through this process, so that they can also learn how to find and fix problems on their own. I'm not sayin I don't like helping you guys, cuz I do, I love it; however, for me personally, I feel a lot better when I have a problem, and I fix it, THEN I make a thread about it, explaining what happened, and how I fixed it. It not only makes you more knowledgable on the subject, but it also gives you an opportunity to help others that may have a similar problem. So, next time you have a problem, see if you can tackle it on your own, even if that means doin a lil quick research (the forum, or google, etc) and finding out how something works. Determine the problem, identify the possible causes, then, by process of elimination, dial it down to what it could be / is. :thumbup:
	[Reply w/Quote]

11-14-2003, 03:26 PM	#6
stinkynathan Registered User Age: 26 Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 233 Location: Brookings, SD User is: OffLine	Quote: Originally posted by SlammedDime I also came to a conclusion on how Mitch (98sdime) was able to push 275-300 PSI through the valve without it freezing, but I'm not even gonna try to explain that one. do explain...... if not here, #s-10 for sure later, nate
	[Reply w/Quote]

11-14-2003, 03:34 PM	#9
joakwin the spl king Age: 28 Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 295 Location: anchorage ak User is: OffLine	i liked to know how he pushed that much psi thur a valve
	[Reply w/Quote]

11-14-2003, 03:39 PM	#10
SlammedDime Registered User Age: 26 Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 13,717 Location: Glendale, AZ User is: OffLine	Aight... gimme a few minutes to type it up.
	[Reply w/Quote]

11-14-2003, 03:42 PM	#11
98sdime www.coloradotruckz.com Age: 27 Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 3,502 Location: Colorado User is: OffLine
	[Reply w/Quote]

11-14-2003, 03:51 PM	#12
SlammedDime Registered User Age: 26 Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 13,717 Location: Glendale, AZ User is: OffLine	Quick physics lesson: You have an area of high pressure (the air supply, right before the diaphram of the valve), and an area of low pressure (the bag, or right after the valve), and a piece of material that can withstand the force (the rubber diaphram). The way physics works, the diaphram will be sucked against the low pressure area, sealing it off from the high pressure area. This is what prevents your valves from leaking. All the solenoid does in this case is pulls the diaphram back from the low pressure area and allows the air to flow. Now... onto the explanation: If you ever tear apart an SMC valve, and look at the diaphram, you will notice a little hole (not quite visible in my pics), but its there. This hole allows air to get to the top side of the diaphram to make a sure seal around the oriface stays closed when there is pressure. The higher the pressure, the greater the seal, and the more force needed to open the valve. In Mitch's case, he just happened to get enough power flowing to the coil in the solenoid, that it was still able to pull the diaphram away from oriface, and the valve still worked. DON'T TAKE THIS AS EVERYONE GO OUT AND RUN 300 PSI TO YOUR SMC VALVE. I do not recommend it at all. Sure the valve casing will stay intact, but you may damage the coil, and will have to have it replaced, or get a new valve. I think I just about covered it. If I'm wrong, and you can prove it, please say somethin.
	[Reply w/Quote]

11-14-2003, 03:59 PM	#13
98sdime www.coloradotruckz.com Age: 27 Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 3,502 Location: Colorado User is: OffLine	so at least someone believes I was runnin that much Psi...
	[Reply w/Quote]

11-14-2003, 05:44 PM	#15
zY Registered User Age: 26 Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 13,623 Location: MS User is: OffLine	Heh, i thought that was pretty obvious too.
	[Reply w/Quote]

11-14-2003, 05:53 PM	#16
SlammedDime Registered User Age: 26 Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 13,717 Location: Glendale, AZ User is: OffLine	I was just explainin how the damn thing worked, so maybe it would educate some people. I knew about him sayin only when the engine was running, but I don't think many people understood why, so I gave them an explantion, rather than sayin, 'It just can'.
	[Reply w/Quote]

11-15-2003, 01:10 AM	#17
Antics03 Registered User Age: 27 Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 341 Location: Ontario, CA User is: OffLine	hey, what sized bit did you use to drill into your T's or did you some how buy them like that?
	[Reply w/Quote]

11-15-2003, 01:48 AM	#18
*suicidedoors.com* I AM A LUNATIC! Age: 35 Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,428 Location: Francisco, Indiana 47649 User is: OffLine	i need SlammedDime here workin the phones. so when you movin to indiana? need a job?
	[Reply w/Quote]

11-15-2003, 03:05 AM	#19
SlammedDime Registered User Age: 26 Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 13,717 Location: Glendale, AZ User is: OffLine	02BLZRX - I bought the tees like that from IRSd_mini. OMG are they a life saver in keeping things simple. I can't recall the price of 'em off hand, but it was worth it. If you know how to make your own threads... or have access to a drill press... give it a shot... get a tap/die set, and do it yourself, with 1/8" NPT threads. Jason - It'd be coo to move to indiana; however, I'm kinda locked into my skoolin so I can work for the FBI and yes... I DO NEED A JOB!!!! lol... my current one sucks, and I can't support my habbit enuf lol
	[Reply w/Quote]

11-17-2003, 01:20 AM	#21
luvinitlow Registered User Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 51 Location: User is: OffLine	i find runnin my valves thro relays provide enuf votage wit the truck runnin to hit 300 psi...maybe 240 when it is off...two years still rollin stong...keepin my fingers crossed...i even put co2 thro them for long periods of time...tho its not good for them,i havent burned one yet...i use dual 10 mm.....
	[Reply w/Quote]

11-17-2003, 01:31 AM	#22
SlammedDime Registered User Age: 26 Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 13,717 Location: Glendale, AZ User is: OffLine	Actually.... SMC valves are made for Water, Dry air, Turbine oil, C02, Nitrogen, and Freon.
	[Reply w/Quote]

05-21-2009, 05:13 PM	#23
chevy_95 Registered User Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 2 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: Troubleshoot your problem... I Have 1995 S10 2.2l I Have Short Some Where If I Dont Start The Truck In Three Day The Battory Will Be Dead What Could It Be Someone help Me
	[Reply w/Quote]

05-21-2009, 05:53 PM	#24
Patawick Registered User Age: 19 Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,602 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: Troubleshoot your problem... wow.. this is the oldest yet! Is something left on all time? radar or phone charger for chance?
	[Reply w/Quote]

05-21-2009, 07:13 PM	#25
hamagc US Beer Drinking Team Age: 27 Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 7,152 Location: Lancaster, CA - Southern California User is: OffLine	Re: Troubleshoot your problem... Quote: Originally Posted by chevy_95 I Have 1995 S10 2.2l I Have Short Some Where If I Dont Start The Truck In Three Day The Battory Will Be Dead What Could It Be Someone help* Me* check out the electrical section on the forum, you'll find lots of help there. for the rest of the thread, good job guys!!
	[Reply w/Quote]

05-21-2009, 07:36 PM	#26
Derek1387 square body newbie Age: 23 Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,613 Location: N. KC, MO User is: OffLine	Re: Troubleshoot your problem... holy old thread bat man.... i want to know what he searched for when he found this
	[Reply w/Quote]

05-22-2009, 12:13 PM	#27
hamagc US Beer Drinking Team Age: 27 Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 7,152 Location: Lancaster, CA - Southern California User is: OffLine	Re: Troubleshoot your problem... lol holy cow, didn't even look at the date!
	[Reply w/Quote]

03-10-2010, 01:08 PM	#28
Rahlee Registered User Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 10 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: Troubleshoot your problem... hey i have a little problem, insted of trying to figure on my own coming to u for some info My truck aired up fine went driving now the pass front wont dump or layout. cant find the problem
	[Reply w/Quote]

03-10-2010, 02:54 PM	#29
Patawick Registered User Age: 19 Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,602 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: Troubleshoot your problem... does the valve get power when u hit the switch lol
	[Reply w/Quote]

03-11-2010, 06:21 AM	#30
Rahlee Registered User Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 10 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: Troubleshoot your problem... i found the problem. man since i got this the had to fix alot of things on the truck. the front wasnt done right. all the valves get power. it aired up but the left front didnt dump. but now some switches didnt work. but i found that the wire on the one dump came loose. the guy i got this from didnt do things right or finish one thing before starting another
	[Reply w/Quote]

03-11-2010, 09:41 AM	#31
cpolaris502 SmartTrak FTW Age: 21 Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 16,615 Location: Rogers, MN User is: Online	Re: Troubleshoot your problem... Hmm, and what did the OP say about people coming straight to the forum for help before taking a look at the problem?
	[Reply w/Quote]