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do you think there will be an issue with my setup?

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Old 02-17-2012, 05:00 PM   #1
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do you think there will be an issue with my setup?

im in the middle of building a 69 galaxie. the air ride is completely done. but the car wont get driven for probably over a year when the rest is done. the car has a 3 link with panhard bar from the factory. the stock springs sit right in front of the axle on a bracket and the tom of them is at the xmember(bridge) that goes across the frame rails. the 3 link bars are all going forward from the axle (towards the front of the car) 2 of them connect to the bottom side of the axle and the other (center link bar) connects from a xmember to the top of the pumpkin. the center link bar is NOT a wishbone type though like the sd 3 link or other custom setups. it is just a single bar. and then it has a panhard bad that comes from the driver side frame rail and connects to the axle.

basically all i did to bag the rear was take the springs out. mod the spring bracket(seat) and mounted some bags where the springs were.

im not new to air ride. but my s10 had a kp6 that was bob so this boa thing with a panhard and single center link is kinda different for me.

anyone see a problem with any of this?
Old 02-17-2012, 05:15 PM   #2
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Re: do you think there will be an issue with my setup?

im running a parallel 3 link with a pan hard bar on my bluse s10. everything should work out fine and all sounds good to me


you might need to adjust or make a longer pan hard bar depending on the angle its at right now. you want it as long as possible and to be parallel to the ground at ride height
Old 02-17-2012, 05:21 PM   #3
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Re: do you think there will be an issue with my setup?

its pretty long right now. ill have to see how it looks at my guestimate ride height though.
Old 02-17-2012, 07:20 PM   #4
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Re: do you think there will be an issue with my setup?

do you think it will make a difference that the bags are not exaclty on the axle and they are not behind like most setups? mine are right in front of the axle
Old 02-17-2012, 07:44 PM   #5
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Re: do you think there will be an issue with my setup?

nothing wrong with the bags being in front, it will give you a little bit of a mechanical advantage, and a little softer ride.

I would still replace the panhard just so you can make it adjustable and set the axle where you want it at your ride height Even if the stock one is already pretty long, its set to center the axle at a much higher ride and is likely not adjustable. Panhard bars are cheap.
Old 02-17-2012, 08:38 PM   #6
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Re: do you think there will be an issue with my setup?

ok so when i replace the panhard bar i take it i can leave the axle side mount in the same spot but i will need to then air the car up to my guestimated ride height and then weld a bracket to the frame in the correct location that will make the bar parallel to the ground?
Old 02-17-2012, 08:39 PM   #7
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Re: do you think there will be an issue with my setup?

and can you please elaberate on the "mechanical advantage" just so i understand.
Old 02-18-2012, 02:28 PM   #8
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Re: do you think there will be an issue with my setup?

Correct on the panhard. By mechanical advantage, I mean you'll get a slight lift advantage being in front of the axle.
Old 02-18-2012, 02:33 PM   #9
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Re: do you think there will be an issue with my setup?

ok thank you
Old 02-18-2012, 04:08 PM   #10
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Re: do you think there will be an issue with my setup?

Very slight.
Old 02-18-2012, 04:25 PM   #11
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Re: do you think there will be an issue with my setup?

very slight what? lift advantage? im really not looking/in need of tons of lift anyways. the lift i get right now will untuck the tires i have on there which is the equivelant to a 275/35/20.
Old 02-18-2012, 05:03 PM   #12
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Re: do you think there will be an issue with my setup?

Quote: Originally Posted by BlackEsDime
Correct on the panhard. By mechanical advantage, I mean you'll get a slight lift advantage being in front of the axle.
That's only true with a 2 link.
Old 02-19-2012, 11:48 AM   #13
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Re: do you think there will be an issue with my setup?

are you serious??

ANY lift produced between the axle and the suspension pivot will be an advantage. however slight it may be... physics don't change by how many links you use.
Old 02-19-2012, 12:25 PM   #14
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Re: do you think there will be an issue with my setup?

Not if it's solidly mounted to the axle and frame. The only way you will gain lift is if it is on a point of the link bar.
Old 02-19-2012, 12:47 PM   #15
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Re: do you think there will be an issue with my setup?

lol. ok
Old 02-19-2012, 10:13 PM   #16
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Re: do you think there will be an issue with my setup?

Quote: Originally Posted by s10gmconversion
Not if it's solidly mounted to the axle and frame. The only way you will gain lift is if it is on a point of the link bar.
correct, if its on the axle, behind and under axle, what have you, it will get the same amount of lift if the same bag is used, if its anywhere on the bar towards the front of the frame it will get more lift, closer to the mount of the bar, the more the lift
Old 02-20-2012, 01:54 AM   #17
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Re: do you think there will be an issue with my setup?

Quote: Originally Posted by BlackEsDime
are you serious??

ANY lift produced between the axle and the suspension pivot will be an advantage. however slight it may be... physics don't change by how many links you use.
Old 02-20-2012, 04:43 PM   #18
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Re: do you think there will be an issue with my setup?

Quote: Originally Posted by zakmann
correct, if its on the axle, behind and under axle, what have you, it will get the same amount of lift if the same bag is used, if its anywhere on the bar towards the front of the frame it will get more lift, closer to the mount of the bar, the more the lift
I'm pretty positive, if the bag Is in front of the axle, it's closer to the pivot point, compared to if it's behind the axle. There will b a slight advantage in lift, very slight lol probably nothing noticable
Old 02-20-2012, 06:22 PM   #19
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Re: do you think there will be an issue with my setup?

i think this is what you guys are arguing over. (just made this diagram)

Old 02-20-2012, 06:22 PM   #20
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Re: do you think there will be an issue with my setup?

I know for a fact... but I'm not going to try and argue on S10Forum.

If you use behind/under brackets, it is a harder ride then straight over the axle. You lose lift and gain spring rate. The opposite will occur if you put it in front.

When you use a link setup where your axle rotates with lift, it is all factored in if you wanted to figure a TRUE ratio for the advantage, but i'm not trying to get in to all that BS. I just said it was an advantage, however small it may be.
Old 02-20-2012, 06:23 PM   #21
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Re: do you think there will be an issue with my setup?

it doesn't make any real difference. Its fine the way it is. Just focus on the panhard and you're good to go.
Old 02-20-2012, 06:25 PM   #22
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Re: do you think there will be an issue with my setup?

ok thank you.
Old 02-20-2012, 11:02 PM   #23
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Re: do you think there will be an issue with my setup?

Quote: Originally Posted by BlackEsDime
When you use a link setup where your axle rotates with lift, it is all factored in if you wanted to figure a TRUE ratio for the advantage, but i'm not trying to get in to all that BS. I just said it was an advantage, however small it may be.
If you're using a 3 or 4 link, you're setting it up to have the axle rotate as little as possible. So if your axle is rotating you have a poor design. If that's the case, then yes you might notice a difference, but not if your link is designed and setup properly.
Old 02-21-2012, 06:07 AM   #24
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Re: do you think there will be an issue with my setup?

Come on now. When you have your geometry set up like a real suspension (not just mini truck built) you may want to implement some type of antisquat. For example, im building my suspension to have as close to 50% antisquat as I could reasonably get... in my measurements for the build, my bars are 6.5" apart at the axle and 4.5" apart at the front mounts. In my particular setup, I should achieve around 49.92% antisquat. This will cause pinion change throughout axle travel.

Pinion change is acceptable in a suspension design for more then one reason. A: it is inevitable if you want functional geometry; B: does your drive shaft move up/down in a linear pattern with your axle? Mo. As your axle raises (truck drops) you are increasing the driveshaft angle and if you have 0° of pinion change, you will eventually bind your u-joint.

However! Through all that fancy talk in the garbage for this debate... it doesn't make Amy difference bow your axle rotates within suspension travel, your bags placement DOES effect its lift ratio when solidly mounted on the axle.
Old 02-21-2012, 07:33 AM   #25
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Re: do you think there will be an issue with my setup?

Quote: Originally Posted by BlackEsDime
Come on now. When you have your geometry set up like a real suspension (not just mini truck built) you may want to implement some type of antisquat. For example, im building my suspension to have as close to 50% antisquat as I could reasonably get... in my measurements for the build, my bars are 6.5" apart at the axle and 4.5" apart at the front mounts. In my particular setup, I should achieve around 49.92% antisquat. This will cause pinion change throughout axle travel.

Pinion change is acceptable in a suspension design for more then one reason. A: it is inevitable if you want functional geometry; B: does your drive shaft move up/down in a linear pattern with your axle? Mo. As your axle raises (truck drops) you are increasing the driveshaft angle and if you have 0° of pinion change, you will eventually bind your u-joint.

However! Through all that fancy talk in the garbage for this debate... it doesn't make Amy difference bow your axle rotates within suspension travel, your bags placement DOES effect its lift ratio when solidly mounted on the axle.
And with all that fancy talk you are still wrong. If its solidly mounted to a fixed upper bracket and lower bracket and it gets say 8" of lift then it doesn't matter where you place those two brackets it is only going to get as much lift as the bag can expand in its 1:1 ratio.
Old 02-21-2012, 09:33 AM   #26
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Re: do you think there will be an issue with my setup?

Quote: Originally Posted by s10gmconversion
And with all that fancy talk you are still wrong. If its solidly mounted to a fixed upper bracket and lower bracket and it gets say 8" of lift then it doesn't matter where you place those two brackets it is only going to get as much lift as the bag can expand in its 1:1 ratio.
All of his fancy talk is 100% correct.

You are also correct, when only speaking about the bag itself. But when the bag is used as part of a system, placement of bag will effect height.
Old 02-21-2012, 10:36 AM   #27
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Re: do you think there will be an issue with my setup?

I am going to have to side with Ryan on this one... but then again I usually take the easy way out and build vehicles with 0% anti-squat. It would be different if i were building race cars.
Old 02-21-2012, 11:38 AM   #28
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Re: do you think there will be an issue with my setup?

Quote: Originally Posted by BlackEsDime
Come on now. When you have your geometry set up like a real suspension (not just mini truck built) you may want to implement some type of antisquat. For example, im building my suspension to have as close to 50% antisquat as I could reasonably get... in my measurements for the build, my bars are 6.5" apart at the axle and 4.5" apart at the front mounts. In my particular setup, I should achieve around 49.92% antisquat. This will cause pinion change throughout axle travel.

Pinion change is acceptable in a suspension design for more then one reason. A: it is inevitable if you want functional geometry; B: does your drive shaft move up/down in a linear pattern with your axle? Mo. As your axle raises (truck drops) you are increasing the driveshaft angle and if you have 0° of pinion change, you will eventually bind your u-joint.

However! Through all that fancy talk in the garbage for this debate... it doesn't make Amy difference bow your axle rotates within suspension travel, your bags placement DOES effect its lift ratio when solidly mounted on the axle.
A little butt hurt? I didn't say build it with 0 pinion change, I said rotate as little as possible. It's not like you're not going to setup a link that gets 10-15° of pinion change in 8" of travel to where the changes in spring rate or lift would be noticeable.
Old 02-21-2012, 12:21 PM   #29
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Re: do you think there will be an issue with my setup?

Axle rotation is not something to even factor in design... it has no dynamic in performance.

I'm not but hurt, I'm providing facts, no need to back step your way out of being wrong, its okay to admit it every once in a while. Leverage is a factor no matter how the mount is secured to the axle. Whether it be by link bar or welded bracket. I'm just beating a dead horse.
Old 02-21-2012, 04:44 PM   #30
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Re: do you think there will be an issue with my setup?

actually... i just don't care. Do what you want with the information given. If you have any questions pertaining to what you actually want to know about... I'll be glad to give you my opinion.
Old 02-21-2012, 05:13 PM   #31
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Re: do you think there will be an issue with my setup?

i was satisfied with the answer you gave me of just redoing the panhard bar
Old 02-21-2012, 07:00 PM   #32
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Re: do you think there will be an issue with my setup?

Lol, sorry.
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