wideband vs. narrowband?

skafia · 09-05-2008, 07:04 PM

the biggest decison maker to me is the cost difference between a wideband and narrowband a/f gauge. narrowbands are anywhere from 25 (ebay) to 60. and widebands are 235 (ebay) to 330 (from aems website).

so im wondering what the pros and cons are of the narrow and widebands are besides the digital read out of the wideband a/f ratio?

King_Ice_Flash2 · 09-05-2008, 07:39 PM

A narrowband gauge is going to be useless for anything other than tuning idle. They are designed to only work at a very small range (14.7). You want to be running richer than that on throttle (Especially under boost). You are probably going to want to run leaner than that under cruise too.

skafia · 09-05-2008, 08:26 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by King_Ice_Flash2

A narrowband gauge is going to be useless for anything other than tuning idle. They are designed to only work at a very small range (14.7). You want to be running richer than that on throttle (Especially under boost). You are probably going to want to run leaner than that under cruise too.

so when idling you want to run richer than 14.7? and while hitting boost and cruising a/f ration around say 11 to 12.7?

King_Ice_Flash2 · 09-05-2008, 10:53 PM

Idling you want right around 14.7, which is the range that those narrow band sensors can handle. Pretty much other than that, they will tell you if you are rich or lean.

Cruising you may actually want to go leaner than 14.7 to get better mileage, but under acceleration you want it to be rich.

skafia · 09-05-2008, 11:58 PM

ok autometer sells a narrowband that acts like a wideband minus the digital readout. has the 270 degree sweeping "needle" so im not sure if that is considered a wideband or not.

King_Ice_Flash2 · 09-06-2008, 12:33 AM

I don't know how to make this clear, but don't waste you money on a narrowband 02 gauge/sensor.

skafia · 09-06-2008, 04:36 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by King_Ice_Flash2

I don't know how to make this clear, but don't waste you money on a narrowband 02 gauge/sensor.

clear enough!!

rob8284 · 09-06-2008, 08:32 PM

Just to inform you. Your stock O2 sensors are narrow band.

skafia · 09-07-2008, 03:31 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by rob8284

Just to inform you. Your stock O2 sensors are narrow band.

I didn't know that. Thanks.

kauffmanstein · 09-22-2008, 10:22 PM

The autometer thing is cool, lots of blinky lights, etc, but it's pretty useless to tune with. It'll tell you if you're extremely lean but under WOT (depending on how much boost) usually it's not gonna read until it's about 12.5:1, which might be too late. If you're tuning your car there's a really nice kit Innovate makes called the LM-1. You can use a couple of different inputs on it too, it'll do I think 4 5-volt referance signals and RPM.

I don't tune anything with a blower over 10 lbs to idle at any richer/leaner than 13:1. If you're doing low boost on a stocker, I guess you could experiment with going leaner.

Are you tuning your own truck or just looking for something to play with?

The Blown Blazer · 09-23-2008, 09:21 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by kauffmanstein

The autometer thing is cool, lots of blinky lights, etc, but it's pretty useless to tune with. It'll tell you if you're extremely lean but under WOT (depending on how much boost) usually it's not gonna read until it's about 12.5:1, which might be too late. If you're tuning your car there's a really nice kit Innovate makes called the LM-1. You can use a couple of different inputs on it too, it'll do I think 4 5-volt referance signals and RPM.

I don't tune anything with a blower over 10 lbs to idle at any richer/leaner than 13:1. If you're doing low boost on a stocker, I guess you could experiment with going leaner.

Are you tuning your own truck or just looking for something to play with?

Uhhh.

12.5:1 is near perfect for a turbo engine.

skafia · 09-23-2008, 03:44 PM

[quote=The Blown Blazer;5603144]Uhhh.

12.5:1 is near perfect for a turbo engine.

That's my goal while hitting boost to keep it right around 12.5 then around13 idle

personnaobscura21 · 09-23-2008, 03:49 PM

get this right. u always want to run a air/ruel ratio of 11-12.5 this is the ratio at which ther is just the right amount of oxygen per fuel atom any richer or leaner and ull be losing power. when u boost it or flog it u must add fuel to keep the ratio not bump the ratio to keep the fuel
tune for a 11 to 12.5 ratio if u wanna win races

skafia · 09-23-2008, 04:36 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by personnaobscura21

get this right. u always want to run a air/ruel ratio of 11-12.5 this is the ratio at which ther is just the right amount of oxygen per fuel atom any richer or leaner and ull be losing power. when u boost it or flog it u must add fuel to keep the ratio not bump the ratio to keep the fuel
tune for a 11 to 12.5 ratio if u wanna win races

Ok thats what I'll shoot for. Another question. How do u use a wideband to tune? I will get. PCM tune as well

s10ls · 09-23-2008, 05:36 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by personnaobscura21

11-12.5 this is the ratio at which ther is just the right amount of oxygen per fuel atom

thats known as stoich, and its 14.7 : 1.

its hard to say what exact ratio you want, it certainly varies from vehicle to vehicle. efiiciency of the intake tract, combustion chamber design, iron vs. aluminum heads, IAT's are just a few of the things that will determine what fuel ratio is best and how much timing you can run. WOT i would start with an 10.5:1 mixture and a very modest spark map and adjust leaner while monitoring knock and adding timing in small increments. key word small

data logging is your friend

this is what a wideband does, it tells you exactly where you are. if your floored at 5k rpm and you have a 15:1 mixture, you know your tune is dangerously way off

i've tuned my truck around 11.7 - 12:1 afr at WOT, 13.7 during cruise, 15.5 at idle. 23 degrees of timing with meth

King_Ice_Flash2 · 09-23-2008, 07:47 PM

And you still havn't blown the thing up

skafia · 09-25-2008, 12:36 AM

ok ok ok lets clear some things up.

Stoich is at 14.7. at idle i should be at 14.7?

Under boost should be between 11-12.5.

and cruising say around 13.5.

[sf]_viper · 09-25-2008, 05:03 PM

it depends on what you want and what your car needs.

14.7 at idle is good to start but it may need to be richer to idle properly depending on mods. also, cruse could be leaner if you want better fuel economy. say, in the 15's. but your off idle response and power will be better with it richer.

skafia · 09-27-2008, 01:31 AM

shouldnt be hard to tell what it will be at since many people on here are running boosted applications on stock motors and have aem or dlx widebands.

09-05-2008, 07:04 PM	#1
skafia Registered User Age: 19 Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 162 Location: User is: OffLine	wideband vs. narrowband? the biggest decison maker to me is the cost difference between a wideband and narrowband a/f gauge. narrowbands are anywhere from 25 (ebay) to 60. and widebands are 235 (ebay) to 330 (from aems website). so im wondering what the pros and cons are of the narrow and widebands are besides the digital read out of the wideband a/f ratio?
	[Reply w/Quote]

09-05-2008, 07:39 PM	#2
King_Ice_Flash2 Will work for turbo parts Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 2,029 Location: SE, WI User is: OffLine	Re: wideband vs. narrowband? A narrowband gauge is going to be useless for anything other than tuning idle. They are designed to only work at a very small range (14.7). You want to be running richer than that on throttle (Especially under boost). You are probably going to want to run leaner than that under cruise too.
	[Reply w/Quote]

09-05-2008, 08:26 PM	#3
skafia Registered User Age: 19 Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 162 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: wideband vs. narrowband? Quote: Originally Posted by King_Ice_Flash2 A narrowband gauge is going to be useless for anything other than tuning idle. They are designed to only work at a very small range (14.7). You want to be running richer than that on throttle (Especially under boost). You are probably going to want to run leaner than that under cruise too. so when idling you want to run richer than 14.7? and while hitting boost and cruising a/f ration around say 11 to 12.7?
	[Reply w/Quote]

09-05-2008, 10:53 PM	#4
King_Ice_Flash2 Will work for turbo parts Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 2,029 Location: SE, WI User is: OffLine	Re: wideband vs. narrowband? Idling you want right around 14.7, which is the range that those narrow band sensors can handle. Pretty much other than that, they will tell you if you are rich or lean. Cruising you may actually want to go leaner than 14.7 to get better mileage, but under acceleration you want it to be rich.
	[Reply w/Quote]

09-05-2008, 11:58 PM	#5
skafia Registered User Age: 19 Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 162 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: wideband vs. narrowband? ok autometer sells a narrowband that acts like a wideband minus the digital readout. has the 270 degree sweeping "needle" so im not sure if that is considered a wideband or not.
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09-06-2008, 12:33 AM	#6
King_Ice_Flash2 Will work for turbo parts Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 2,029 Location: SE, WI User is: OffLine	Re: wideband vs. narrowband? I don't know how to make this clear, but don't waste you money on a narrowband 02 gauge/sensor.
	[Reply w/Quote]

09-06-2008, 04:36 PM	#7
skafia Registered User Age: 19 Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 162 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: wideband vs. narrowband? Quote: Originally Posted by King_Ice_Flash2 I don't know how to make this clear, but don't waste you money on a narrowband 02 gauge/sensor. clear enough!!
	[Reply w/Quote]

09-06-2008, 08:32 PM	#8
rob8284 Registered User Age: 24 Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 359 Location: Westminster, MD User is: OffLine	Re: wideband vs. narrowband? Just to inform you. Your stock O2 sensors are narrow band.
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09-07-2008, 03:31 PM	#9
skafia Registered User Age: 19 Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 162 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: wideband vs. narrowband? Quote: Originally Posted by rob8284 Just to inform you. Your stock O2 sensors are narrow band. I didn't know that. Thanks.
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09-22-2008, 10:22 PM	#10
kauffmanstein Holes in the Sky Age: 23 Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 88 Location: Bout 4 miles from philly User is: OffLine	Re: wideband vs. narrowband? The autometer thing is cool, lots of blinky lights, etc, but it's pretty useless to tune with. It'll tell you if you're extremely lean but under WOT (depending on how much boost) usually it's not gonna read until it's about 12.5:1, which might be too late. If you're tuning your car there's a really nice kit Innovate makes called the LM-1. You can use a couple of different inputs on it too, it'll do I think 4 5-volt referance signals and RPM. I don't tune anything with a blower over 10 lbs to idle at any richer/leaner than 13:1. If you're doing low boost on a stocker, I guess you could experiment with going leaner. Are you tuning your own truck or just looking for something to play with?
	[Reply w/Quote]

09-23-2008, 09:21 AM	#11
The Blown Blazer Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 2,614 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: wideband vs. narrowband? Quote: Originally Posted by kauffmanstein The autometer thing is cool, lots of blinky lights, etc, but it's pretty useless to tune with. It'll tell you if you're extremely lean but under WOT (depending on how much boost) usually it's not gonna read until it's about 12.5:1, which might be too late. If you're tuning your car there's a really nice kit Innovate makes called the LM-1. You can use a couple of different inputs on it too, it'll do I think 4 5-volt referance signals and RPM. I don't tune anything with a blower over 10 lbs to idle at any richer/leaner than 13:1. If you're doing low boost on a stocker, I guess you could experiment with going leaner. Are you tuning your own truck or just looking for something to play with? Uhhh. 12.5:1 is near perfect for a turbo engine.
	[Reply w/Quote]

09-23-2008, 03:44 PM	#12
skafia Registered User Age: 19 Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 162 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: wideband vs. narrowband? [quote=The Blown Blazer;5603144]Uhhh. 12.5:1 is near perfect for a turbo engine. That's my goal while hitting boost to keep it right around 12.5 then around13 idle
	[Reply w/Quote]

09-23-2008, 03:49 PM	#13
personnaobscura21 Registered User Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 10 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: wideband vs. narrowband? get this right. u always want to run a air/ruel ratio of 11-12.5 this is the ratio at which ther is just the right amount of oxygen per fuel atom any richer or leaner and ull be losing power. when u boost it or flog it u must add fuel to keep the ratio not bump the ratio to keep the fuel tune for a 11 to 12.5 ratio if u wanna win races
	[Reply w/Quote]

09-23-2008, 04:36 PM	#14
skafia Registered User Age: 19 Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 162 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: wideband vs. narrowband? Quote: Originally Posted by personnaobscura21 get this right. u always want to run a air/ruel ratio of 11-12.5 this is the ratio at which ther is just the right amount of oxygen per fuel atom any richer or leaner and ull be losing power. when u boost it or flog it u must add fuel to keep the ratio not bump the ratio to keep the fuel tune for a 11 to 12.5 ratio if u wanna win races Ok thats what I'll shoot for. Another question. How do u use a wideband to tune? I will get. PCM tune as well
	[Reply w/Quote]

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09-23-2008, 05:36 PM	#15
s10ls Registered User Age: 85 Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 2,392 Location: orlando/englewood User is: OffLine	Re: wideband vs. narrowband? Quote: Originally Posted by personnaobscura21 11-12.5 this is the ratio at which ther is just the right amount of oxygen per fuel atom thats known as stoich, and its 14.7 : 1. its hard to say what exact ratio you want, it certainly varies from vehicle to vehicle. efiiciency of the intake tract, combustion chamber design, iron vs. aluminum heads, IAT's are just a few of the things that will determine what fuel ratio is best and how much timing you can run. WOT i would start with an 10.5:1 mixture and a very modest spark map and adjust leaner while monitoring knock and adding timing in small increments. key word small data logging is your friend this is what a wideband does, it tells you exactly where you are. if your floored at 5k rpm and you have a 15:1 mixture, you know your tune is dangerously way off i've tuned my truck around 11.7 - 12:1 afr at WOT, 13.7 during cruise, 15.5 at idle. 23 degrees of timing with meth
	[Reply w/Quote]

09-23-2008, 07:47 PM	#16
King_Ice_Flash2 Will work for turbo parts Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 2,029 Location: SE, WI User is: OffLine	Re: wideband vs. narrowband? And you still havn't blown the thing up
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09-25-2008, 12:36 AM	#17
skafia Registered User Age: 19 Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 162 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: wideband vs. narrowband? ok ok ok lets clear some things up. Stoich is at 14.7. at idle i should be at 14.7? Under boost should be between 11-12.5. and cruising say around 13.5.
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09-25-2008, 05:03 PM	#18
[sf]_viper Registered User Age: 28 Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 20 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: wideband vs. narrowband? it depends on what you want and what your car needs. 14.7 at idle is good to start but it may need to be richer to idle properly depending on mods. also, cruse could be leaner if you want better fuel economy. say, in the 15's. but your off idle response and power will be better with it richer.
	[Reply w/Quote]

09-27-2008, 01:31 AM	#19
skafia Registered User Age: 19 Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 162 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: wideband vs. narrowband? shouldnt be hard to tell what it will be at since many people on here are running boosted applications on stock motors and have aem or dlx widebands.
	[Reply w/Quote]