Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10 - S-10 Forum
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post #1 of 89 Old 11-21-2008, 02:42 PM Thread Starter
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Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

I know that all ignition timing on this year and up truck is controlled by the PCM. However, the truck pings above 3000RPM under moderate to full throttle. This, to me, screams to be a retarted timing issue. It's not as bad when running 93 octane, but drop any lower than that and it pings BIG TIME!

Is there anyway to flash the ECU to reset the timing or anything that assists the timing advance (i.e. vacuum) I'm not 100% if the 2nd generation trucks had Vacuum ball resiviors or not. I know mine does not but the kid i bought that truck from was an idiot and liked to remove necessary things for no reason so I'm thinking maybe it sprung a leak and he ditched it instead of fixing it.

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!


- Joe
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post #2 of 89 Old 11-21-2008, 04:05 PM
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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

If it really is pinging, something is wrong, and reflashing the PCM may help the symptoms, but not the problem. The PCM is tuned way on the safe side of timing from the factory, and an aftermarket tune will add more timing and still be on the conservitive side.

Have you replaced the fuel filter recently? Sparkplugs/wires? Clean out the EGR passage?

Any check engine light? Maybe you could get a scanner that detects knock retard?

The distributor is controlled COMPLETELY by the PCM. The 2000 will have a vacuum resivour, but it is stuck inside of the fender or dash.

If you suspect a vacuum leak. you can disconnect the vacuum line off the back of the motor, and use a short piece of vacuum line with a golf tee stuck in it to verify.

If a vacuum line is left disconnected, you should get a MAF error, because that thing is pretty sensitive.

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post #3 of 89 Old 11-21-2008, 04:21 PM
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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

Maybe someone put the wrong knock sensor on it and you aren't getting the appropriate knock retard.

The vacuum lines and the vacuum reservoir will not affect the timing (as long as there are no leaks). The old vacuum advance is now controlled by the MAP sensor.

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post #4 of 89 Old 11-21-2008, 11:10 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

Yes, HUGE recent tune up just done. Plugs, Wires, Cap, Rotor, Fuel Filter, Fuel Pump, Camshaft and Crankshaft sensors.

CEL does come on periodically but it's a soft code for Gas Tank Pressure Sensor/Switch Low Input. Which I've narrowed down to either the Gas Cap or the O-Ring around the top of the fuel pump assembly not seating right. The light comes on and goes off as it pleases and does not stay on all the time. I constantly scan the code to make sure the same one keeps coming back and that's what it is. I just don't feel like, nor do I any longer have the resources to drop the tank to fix the problem.

Knock sensor is something I suspected, Spider Injectors going bad is something else I suspected but it definitley seems like a timing issue because when it is pinging the truck has no balls at all and if timing isn't right, it's obviously not going to make any power.

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post #5 of 89 Old 11-21-2008, 11:18 PM
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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

disconnect both cables from your battery and touch them together overnite. this will disapate teh capacitors in the ecm and make it relearn itself. it may also be a good ideal to clean the maf so it can relaern that also. see what happens after this.

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post #6 of 89 Old 11-22-2008, 12:02 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

MAF has been cleaned and I've already reset the ECU. It goes back to the base maps and still does the same thing.
Normal driving is fine, it just gets shitty gas milage. I just can't get on it AT ALL.

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post #7 of 89 Old 11-23-2008, 11:40 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

Any Ideas as to what this may be??

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post #8 of 89 Old 11-24-2008, 12:03 AM
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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

You mentioned suspecting the spider unit. Measure for pressure to check for any stuck open poppets and/or fpr, that maybe have something to do with the code you're already getting?
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post #9 of 89 Old 11-24-2008, 12:49 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

The code I'm getting is an EVAP system code.

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post #10 of 89 Old 11-24-2008, 10:30 PM
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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

Check CTS for propper operation, check for low fuel pressure, Run the Seafoam Intake cleaning with engine HOT, change fuel filter.

Sensor Resistance Chart -> http://www.s10forum.com/forum/attachments/f107/98606d1222052466-little-help-needed-gm-sensor-chart.gif
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post #11 of 89 Old 11-24-2008, 11:29 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

call me stupid but....CTS?? Fuel filter was just changed like 4K ago... but everything else i will have to try

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post #12 of 89 Old 11-25-2008, 03:30 AM
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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

CTS = Coolant Temperature Sensor
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post #13 of 89 Old 11-25-2008, 11:07 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

Haha! something so simple... I hate abbreviations. The temp sensor to the gauge is good, Is there two on these?

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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

Temp sensor to gauge doesn't do anything else but feed the gauge. You gotta check/replace the one located by the EGR. That one informs the PCM on the temp.
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post #15 of 89 Old 11-25-2008, 05:10 PM
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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

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Originally Posted by cHUcKs10 View Post
Temp sensor to gauge doesn't do anything else but feed the gauge. You gotta check/replace the one located by the EGR. That one informs the PCM on the temp.
I might be wrong, but I don't think that they have one by the EGR on a 2000.

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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

I thought they did until 2001.

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post #17 of 89 Old 11-25-2008, 11:53 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

I'll check during the day tomorrow and let you know

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post #18 of 89 Old 11-26-2008, 02:33 PM
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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

My '98 only has the one in the head, is why I was saying that.

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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

what about one of if not both of the knock sensors? would it be possible for them to be messed up without throwing a code??

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post #20 of 89 Old 12-01-2008, 12:18 PM
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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

That's why I was trying to get you to use a scanner that can log KR.

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post #21 of 89 Old 12-01-2008, 02:31 PM
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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

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That's why I was trying to get you to use a scanner that can log KR.
X2 on logging the KR.

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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

yea, i got that part... and as soon as I have access to a scanner I will. I was just wondering if it's possible for one or both of them to be bad without kicking a CEL?

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post #23 of 89 Old 12-01-2008, 09:22 PM
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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

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Temp sensor to gauge doesn't do anything else but feed the gauge. You gotta check/replace the one located by the EGR. That one informs the PCM on the temp.
97-earlier had two temp senders. one for gauge, one for PCM.

98-later had only one sender. the PCM shares temp sender info
with the instrument cluster...

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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

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I might be wrong, but I don't think that they have one by the EGR on a 2000.
right. 98-01 the hole in front of the thermostat just got
a pipe plug put in it.

02-later, they didnt even drill/tap that boss on the manifold.

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post #25 of 89 Old 12-05-2008, 10:24 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

Right. So if thats the case, if the gauge is good then the PCM is seeing the same thing right?

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post #26 of 89 Old 12-05-2008, 11:10 AM
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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

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Right. So if thats the case, if the gauge is good then the PCM is seeing the same thing right?
I just spent about 45 minutes going through wiring diagrams on AutoZone's website trying to find the answer to this. Bottom line: they only show 1 temp sensor on the engine and it goes to the PCM. What they do not show is how the temp gauge gets its signal. If the gauge is hooked up to the PCM, then it is seeing the same data.

Maybe someone else can confirm the source of the temp gauge signal. I sure would like to know!

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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

I have the GM wiring diagrams for 98+. If you have a vin number for your year, I can look it up.

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post #28 of 89 Old 12-05-2008, 03:16 PM
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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

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I have the GM wiring diagrams for 98+. If you have a vin number for your year, I can look it up.
Do you need the whole VIN#?

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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

I think I can get away without the last 4 digits, but otherwise it asks for goofy information like year, model, doors, engine, transmission, 4X4, suspension... etc if you look it up by year. It's easier to just type in the VIN number

You can email/pm it to me if you don't want to post it.

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post #30 of 89 Old 12-05-2008, 03:28 PM
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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

Not a problem. It's just that I have to go outside in the cold (58*! BRR!) and copy it down, and I'm not too good with long strings of letters and numbers. I'll be back in a minute.

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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

pfft, it was 8 deg this morning.

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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

I know. I saw your location and I just couldn't resist! (J/K)

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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

Ok. Vin# 1gncs13w9w2248166

TIA!

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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

send me your email address, and I will email you a pdf right after I get home. Should be like 10 PM the way things are going here Maybe I should go do some work instead of surfing the internet.

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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

PM sent.

Don't work too hard!

Thanks!

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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

Not me I'm worried about. Waiting for the software to be released so I can rebuild a server with it.

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post #37 of 89 Old 12-05-2008, 06:16 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

I'm not 100% but I'm pretty sure the cluster is fed by the PCM but I guess King Ice would best know the answer to that.

Regardless, I dont think the CTS is causing the problem. It definitley seems to be timing related. I've notices recently that there's a few hesitation spots through the RPM range and then the obvious pinging above 3K. Not to mention the fact that the truck just runs like I'm constantly towing something, gets horrible gas mileage (~200 miles to a FULL TANK!!!) and has a low idle miss that I can't seem to get rid of. However, I think the low idle miss is Spider related, but I'm not 100% on that...

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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10 *finally logged, new updates*

FINALLY got around to logging KR on a datalogger.

First of all, the knock sensor voltage stays at 4.67 no matter what, whether the truck is idling, cruising, WOT, it doesn't matter... Anyway, there is absolutley no KR until 3,000RPM when it starts pinging. Then, the KR jumped up to between 4-6*

I did a few pulls, one time, it didn't ping so bad the KR was at 1-2* another time, it didn't ping and all and the KR was 0* but th Knock sensor voltage never moved off of 4.67 the whole time.

Couple this with the fact that I had a misfire attack while cruising down the highway last night. CEL was flashing and the truck every once in a while just bucked foward while cruising.

I think, that the spiders are going bad because I also ran a misfire monitor and cylinder 6 misfired 1 out of every 4 times it fired and it pulled a Cyl. 6 misfire code. This may also be in conjunction with the pinging problem. Maybe the knock sensors are working properly and it's seeing knock from detonation of cyl 6 being starved for fuel?? or do I have a bad knock sensor problem?

If someone could just double check my thought/tell me what you think that would be amazing!!

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post #39 of 89 Old 01-01-2009, 01:00 PM
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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

Those are sounding like the timing chain rattle symptoms. How many miles are on it?

Are the motor mounts intact?

Exhaust hitting the frame?

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post #40 of 89 Old 01-01-2009, 01:22 PM
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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

I'm having a similar problem, but I haven't tried the 93 octane yet to see if it would respond to that.

I think that you are on the right track with the lean detonation theory. A 2000 would have the old poppet injectors and one could be clogged. That's what I'm leaning toward on mine. Balance shaft rattle is another possibility as it does not seem to respond very well to timing adjustments. The PCM cuts advance but the KR just goes it's own way. I have attached a screen shot of HP Tuners log so that you can compare.

Edit: What is the brand and number of your spark plugs? Maybe too hot?
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post #41 of 89 Old 01-01-2009, 07:14 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

The truck just flipped 108K, motor mounts are in-tact, exhaust not hitting frame. Everything is completely 100% stock.

Plugs are delco stock heat range gapped according to the ID tag under the hood. I pulled compression in cyl. 6 for the fun of it to see if maybe there was more at work here... 195psi which is about right from the best of my knowledge. Yogi, I was gonna PM you directly because you seemed to be having similar problems but I figured I'd just bump this thread up so that everyone could respond... I didn't watch spark advance, now that you say that I should have though...

Balance shaft rattle woud create a fluxuation in oil pressure wouldn't it? because I thought that too and the only way to really test was to lay into it and watch the oil pressure gauge. These knock retard numbers were on 93 Octane BTW. when I don't run 93 it runs like complete shit, pings below 3K, and under lighter loads... I'd be curious to see how much timing it pulls on a lesser octane

Other things I noticed were that the O2 sensor voltages fluxuated a bit, both at idle and driving, this could obviously be to one leaning cylinder but the cats were another thing that crossed my mind.

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post #42 of 89 Old 01-01-2009, 09:21 PM
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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

What is the fuel pressure like?

Sensor Resistance Chart -> http://www.s10forum.com/forum/attachments/f107/98606d1222052466-little-help-needed-gm-sensor-chart.gif
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post #43 of 89 Old 01-02-2009, 12:25 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

Good last I checked, but it's been a while.

That is on my to do list, just gotta borrow my buddy's tester.

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post #44 of 89 Old 01-02-2009, 11:01 AM
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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

AFAIK, balance shaft rattle will not cause oil pressure fluctuation. I don't see how it could.

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post #45 of 89 Old 01-02-2009, 11:09 AM
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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

Let us know the values on Key On Engine Off (Prime), Idling, & Partial Throttle I.E. 2000RPM.

What Brand was the Fuel Pump you used?

Sensor Resistance Chart -> http://www.s10forum.com/forum/attachments/f107/98606d1222052466-little-help-needed-gm-sensor-chart.gif
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post #46 of 89 Old 01-02-2009, 09:43 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

Well, prime is obviously more than 55psi because it's enough to open the check valve to the spider. The truck does start and run, I drive it everyday. But the CEL stays on now since the other night. I'll check the other values when I get a chance.

I believe the pump was Airtex. The kid I bought the truck off of had bought it. I would have gone with OEM myself but it runs for now and until the pump gives me a problem, I'm not dropping the tank again...

Yogi, would balance shaft rattle cause timing to retard? because the pinging is most definitley directly related to the Knock Retard

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post #47 of 89 Old 01-03-2009, 01:22 AM
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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

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Originally Posted by prs0303 View Post
I know that all ignition timing on this year and up truck is controlled by the PCM. However, the truck pings above 3000RPM under moderate to full throttle. This, to me, screams to be a retarted timing issue. It's not as bad when running 93 octane, but drop any lower than that and it pings BIG TIME!

Is there anyway to flash the ECU to reset the timing or anything that assists the timing advance (i.e. vacuum) I'm not 100% if the 2nd generation trucks had Vacuum ball resiviors or not. I know mine does not but the kid i bought that truck from was an idiot and liked to remove necessary things for no reason so I'm thinking maybe it sprung a leak and he ditched it instead of fixing it.

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!
I didnt really read every thing but sounds like your knock sensor is bad . That would tell you pcm to stop advancing the ignition

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post #48 of 89 Old 01-03-2009, 02:12 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

Yea, we've (a few guys in this thread) narrowed it down to either knock sensors or spider injectors. I'm pretty sure the knock sensors are working somewhat because it's still retarding the timing due to knock but the sensor voltage is locked at 4.67v which is strange

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post #49 of 89 Old 01-03-2009, 09:27 AM
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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

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Originally Posted by prs0303 View Post
Well, prime is obviously more than 55psi because it's enough to open the check valve to the spider. The truck does start and run, I drive it everyday. But the CEL stays on now since the other night. I'll check the other values when I get a chance.

I believe the pump was Airtex. The kid I bought the truck off of had bought it. I would have gone with OEM myself but it runs for now and until the pump gives me a problem, I'm not dropping the tank again...

Yogi, would balance shaft rattle cause timing to retard? because the pinging is most definitley directly related to the Knock Retard
I can see how the BS rattle could be picked up by the KS, but I don't know for sure. I just know that there is no clear relationship between KR and timing advance on my 4.3. If you can see the KR go down when the timing is retarded then I would say that your problem is detonation and not BS rattle.

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post #50 of 89 Old 01-03-2009, 10:36 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Timing adjustment on a 2000 S10

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If you can see the KR go down when the timing is retarded then I would say that your problem is detonation and not BS rattle.
huh? haha the KR is the amount of timing thats being pulled by the computer? that's the only value i can see on the scanner anyway. what value are you wanting me to look for here?

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