LIM done and immediate knocking WTF!!

mrmontebuilder · 10-08-2009, 11:28 PM

I spent almost all day doing a LIM and valve cover gaskets and got it 99% finished and started it up to make sure timing was right and no fuel leaks and it knocks like there is someone in the pan with a BIG hammer trying to get out. I was super careful and did not use a cookie wheel to clean anything and I drained the anti-freeze before I started and although I did NOT change the oil it is still at the same level and clean just like before I started. I have done 25 or so small block intake gaskets and never had ANY problem other than stabbing the distributor off a tooth a few times and no leakers. I am at a loss and do not understand as motor ran great other than a slight dribble of anti-freeze out the LF where intake and head meet. Truck has 127k on it and uses zero oil and it just started leaking freeze last week and used 2-3 cups in a week or so. Not a bad leak but I still wanted to fix it and do all my hoses and stat before it got cold out. Anyone else have this happen?? I mean the knock is immediate as soon as it fires it is banging. I do not even have the belt back on it yet so it is nothing accessory wise doing it. I hate like hell to do an engine in this thing but I also hate like hell to rip it apart again. My only thought is I dropped something in it while it was apart but I was not short any bolts/nuts and all my tools seem present and accounted for. I will do a full inventory in the morning of tools and look it over again for any obvious screw ups but I know how my luck goes and I may as well order a motor now! Oh truck was ran a total of about 1 to 1 1/2 minutes total and I also at my dad's suggestion disconnected the coil and cranked it around a few times for about 20 seconds or so and it is quiet as a mouse when cranking.

wotgtp · 10-08-2009, 11:30 PM

Damn man that sucks, i guess the only thing i can say is i hope everything works out?

95tahoelt · 10-09-2009, 12:49 AM

it sounds to me like you drop something in there!

jjimmy · 10-09-2009, 07:47 PM

I hate to be the barer of bad news but I think your going to need a new set of main bearings. My friend had the same problem, check your lifters there not priming is my bet. what your hearing is the crank killing the bearings. If you didn't run it to long you should be fine and hopefully you don't need to replace the bearings. we ended up pulling the motor, it ran for to long with no oil.
The oil gage read pressure all the time, the pressure sensor is before the oil gos to the lifter valley where it is then sent to the crankshaft, you get the idea you may read oil pressure but there is none really!
If you drain your oil ill bet you’ll find water in the bottom of the pan. Sounds exactly like what happened to him and I looked at the dipstick and the oil looked clean no water, drained the pan and bad news. DONT RUN THE MOTOR TILL YOU CHECK you might save yourself a big bill. Look under the valve covers pull one or both and start the truck if you have no oiling you have water in the oil. If I'm right the reason you are hearing the knock is lack of oil. The water oil froth is thicker than oil and the pump cant prime, or hold pressure.
TO FIX, drain the pan, pull the LIM remove your lifters and take them apart clean with break cleaner and reassemble and prim them with metal pump type oil can. The goal is to remove any water or frothy oil/water from them. well there out *** get something to spin the oil pump with, you need to fill the engine with "used oil I suggest" its going to be cheaper than buying 2 cases of oil prim the pump till the oil is clear of froth/water. You will end up filling and draining several times. I would disconnect the oil lines, other wise you’ll just fill them with water. Flush the oil lines. Once the oil in the block is coming out of the lifter galleys clean, reconnect the oil lines and recheck that the oil is clean. if it is reinstall the cleaned and primed lifters, push rods and rockers then the LIM. leave a valve cover off and start the engine to check for oil flow, if its pumping through the lifters your done if not you missed some water and you need to do the hole thin again. I think my friend still has a new set of lifters in the box if you want to replace yours rather than clean them. We originally thought that there was a stuck lifter. Feel free to contact me for help.

mrmontebuilder · 10-09-2009, 07:52 PM

I ripped it apart again and found nothing inside and laid out all my tools and found nothing missing and went everything I discarded from the truck and all clamps were accounted for and no hardware left over or short either. I looked down all 6 intake ports with an inspection mirror and saw nothing and no evidence of anything being bounced around inside either. Pushrods do not appear bent and I see nothing amiss from the cam lobes I can see and the heads both had oil laying in them as well as all the rockers so I believe it is getting oil up top. I can only think that maybe some anti freeze got into a cylinder when i pulled the intake BUT I drained it thoroughly before disassembly and when I removed the manifold the only thing that came out of it was a bit of gas from the fuel lines nothing else and there was nothing in the valley either. I put a towel in the valley and stuffed towels in all the ports before i started cleaning the heads and just used a razor scraper as 99% of it came off with the gaskets which just peeled off nice and the silicone end "seals" peeled off in one piece too. I am lost and now pricing engines and I am thinking of junking it as I am into it for almost $3600 and it still needs a few small dents fixed and touch up and it is still a stick and worth about $3600 and to be honest this thing needs something once a week and it is just seeming like it is not worth sinking anymore in it now.

jjimmy · 10-09-2009, 07:53 PM

I forgot the other part. There must have been a distributer cap screw on the motor before he started, we found it in one of the cylinders that was part of the slap. that then cracked the block. so check your cylinders to. he used a shopvac to clean the motor prior to dissasembly and it still got in there. He didn't drop it it must have been there before so be carefull. thats why we ended up pulling the motor. just bad luck two problems unrelated.

mrmontebuilder · 10-09-2009, 08:01 PM

I doubt there was anything on the motor as I thoroughly pressure washed it about a week ago in anticipation of doing the hoses and stat and then the intake started dribbling and I figured I would do it all at once and be done with it. The ONLY thing I found in going over all this was I thought the distributor was missing the gasket but it was stuck to the distributor and it ended up with 2 gaskets on it but I seriously doubt that had anything to do with it as the distributor dropped right back in place and marks were dead on and it fully seated first try so I am 99.9% sure it line up fine. Funny thing is cranking it with coil disconnected for about 20 seconds or so and it makes zero noise at all and i did that about 10 times this morning and had my dad do it too while I listened with a stethoscope and I heard NO noise at all. I only have weird problems LOL

andysutt · 10-09-2009, 08:09 PM

Your saying a screw from a distributor made the block crack? Crazy never heard of anything falling into a cylinder crack a block, just scratching the living crap out of the cylinder.

jjimmy · 10-09-2009, 08:10 PM

you wont see anything in the valves we didn't we had to pull the heads to find the screw. the heads should have oil on them, IT MEANS NOTHING unless you see it coming out of the rockers when the engine is running. drain your oil its that simple. the screw that went in the cylinder was a tiny distributer rotter screw and it cracked the cylinder wall. if you have oil coming out or the rockers, I would pull the heads $80 in gaskets is cheaper than a 800 motor. It also happens Ive been looking for a stick, what state are you in? If you do decide to get rid of it.

jjimmy · 10-09-2009, 08:14 PM

that was not my call. that came from a man that has built race motors for 20+ years. I do agree with you, but how many 4.3L crack a cylinder wall under 120K, and just for odds add that its the same cylinder that had junk in it? the block castings are pretty good for the newer 4.3ls it was a 2001.

Quote: Originally Posted by andysutt

Your saying a screw from a distributor made the block crack? Crazy never heard of anything falling into a cylinder crack a block, just scratching the living crap out of the cylinder.

Bills Dad · 10-09-2009, 08:41 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by jjimmy

I hate to be the barer of bad news but I think your going to need a new set of main bearings. My friend had the same problem, check your lifters there not priming is my bet. what your hearing is the crank killing the bearings. If you didn't run it to long you should be fine and hopefully you don't need to replace the bearings. we ended up pulling the motor, it ran for to long with no oil.
The oil gage read pressure all the time, the pressure sensor is before the oil gos to the lifter valley where it is then sent to the crankshaft, you get the idea you may read oil pressure but there is none really!
If you drain your oil ill bet you’ll find water in the bottom of the pan. Sounds exactly like what happened to him and I looked at the dipstick and the oil looked clean no water, drained the pan and bad news. DONT RUN THE MOTOR TILL YOU CHECK you might save yourself a big bill. Look under the valve covers pull one or both and start the truck if you have no oiling you have water in the oil. If I'm right the reason you are hearing the knock is lack of oil. The water oil froth is thicker than oil and the pump cant prime, or hold pressure.
TO FIX, drain the pan, pull the LIM remove your lifters and take them apart clean with break cleaner and reassemble and prim them with metal pump type oil can. The goal is to remove any water or frothy oil/water from them. well there out *** get something to spin the oil pump with, you need to fill the engine with "used oil I suggest" its going to be cheaper than buying 2 cases of oil prim the pump till the oil is clear of froth/water. You will end up filling and draining several times. I would disconnect the oil lines, other wise you’ll just fill them with water. Flush the oil lines. Once the oil in the block is coming out of the lifter galleys clean, reconnect the oil lines and recheck that the oil is clean. if it is reinstall the cleaned and primed lifters, push rods and rockers then the LIM. leave a valve cover off and start the engine to check for oil flow, if its pumping through the lifters your done if not you missed some water and you need to do the hole thin again. I think my friend still has a new set of lifters in the box if you want to replace yours rather than clean them. We originally thought that there was a stuck lifter. Feel free to contact me for help.

A bit of work, but certainly worth the effort since the only real loss other than time/labor is the cost of oil & filter (which should be done after this type of operation), sounds plausible........

mrmontebuilder · 10-09-2009, 09:08 PM

I was thinking of pulling the heads anyway but the thing that bothers me is I had the t-stat out before pulling the manifold and it was dry in there. The other thing that bothers me is if there is enough antifreeze in the pan to keep the oil pump from working the oil level would have to rise - it is simple physics matter takes up space so the oil would have to go somewhere. I may go get a priming tool tomorrow at harbor freight and see if I set the manifold back on if I get oil to the top end or not. If I do that means it is something else right?? I know changing the oil is necessary after doing an intake gasket but I have done many before on SBC motors and some I know had a cup or so of antifreeze run in the valley BUT I always do a run for a few seconds to make sure timing is right etc before I do a final button up and fill with antifreeze and if all is well I drain and change oil and filter and run it an hour or two and change it again and then again in a few days to be safe and never had a single issue. Between ones for myself on my own vehicles I did 15 and at least that many on other peoples cars so this is not my first time around the block. Not saying I know everything but I am extremely careful and OCD about checking things. I will post back tomorrow on situation to let you all know what I find out. I hope it is simple BUT I know my luck !!

lesterl · 10-09-2009, 10:12 PM

Get the gaskets on right?

mrmontebuilder · 10-09-2009, 11:14 PM

Yes gaskets were locked in fine with locking tabs. I looked at anti-freeze I drained out and I have about 2 1/2 or so gallons bottled up to recycle and lost some on the ground too and overflow is still at full line and I am sure there is some on the core too so if any went into the engine I do not think it would be much.

jjimmy · 10-10-2009, 07:53 PM

did you drain the oil yet?

mrmontebuilder · 10-10-2009, 08:16 PM

no it rained almost all day and I have no garage, supposed to be nice tomorrow and if it is will do it by 9am or so.

mrmontebuilder · 10-11-2009, 11:55 AM

Drained the oil and it was nice and clean just like 1000 miles ago when I changed it, no water, gas or metal particles in it. I did pull all the plugs out and manually turned it over with a ratchet and it goes about 1 1/2 turns in either direction and stops and locks up so I am assuming it ingested something. Worst part is I was super careful working on this and found nothing missing at all tool or part wise so I am beginning to think when I went in to take a break when it was apart maybe someone dropped something in it to be a PITA, I do not have any enemies in my neighborhood as far as I know but who knows?? I am trying to get a borescope to see in the cylinders without taking it apart but so far no luck. I will post back when I find out more.

andysutt · 10-11-2009, 11:57 AM

You might could use a magnet on one of those long expanding rods to see if you can find anything. I know it will stick to the motor as well, but it could possibly work

mrmontebuilder · 10-11-2009, 04:56 PM

I got a borescope and while I could not see everything I saw pretty much nothing in any of the cylinders. After that we loosened all the rockers so the valves would all be closed and still spins and locks up again same amount in either direction. We proceeded to hook up the starter and it cranks pretty normal but you can hear/feel something when it is cranking. I took the starter off completely and tried turning by hand again and no go still locking up like before. I am at a loss now and next is pulling the heads and seeing what is visible from there. If nothing is visible engine comes out and then the wallet begins leaking cash like no tomorrow.

1fast4by · 10-11-2009, 05:14 PM

You sure you got the distributer into the oil pump? Sound like you didnt to me.. Its an easy fix.

95tahoelt · 10-11-2009, 06:46 PM

I bet you spun a main or two, if so you'll have to align bore the block.

mrmontebuilder · 10-11-2009, 07:00 PM

Distributor was fully seated and dropped in first shot, if it spun a main I would think it would have zero oil pressure or very little. This thing has 35 or so when cranking and 50 as soon as it starts up and is idling. Tomorrow heads come off, at this point I have pretty much written motor off but curiosity has the better of me and I NEED to know what happened. So who can tell me with 100% certainty what motors will fit this?? I am looking at an 08 Express van engine with 4k miles and I know I need to change the intake and exhaust manifolds to accommodate the EGR but it is vin X so I do not know if it will work or not and I do not want to buy it on a guess. I can get that motor for around $900 delivered complete so this will also allow me to upgrade from poppets to injectors as well I believe and figuring that in the mix would make the other 01 motor I found for $600 with 74k not such a big savings figuring on an average of $250ish for the injector changeover plus it has an additional 70k miles on it too. Also is it easier to pull trans before motor because it is a stick and I do not want to fight to get it lined up again or just leave the trans in place , looks kind of tight to get bellhousing bolts out so I may pull both together, not sure yet. I have done 15 or so A/G body motors and I pulled engine and trans together and joined them back together on the ground in the open but this looks a bit tighter than they do.

mrmontebuilder · 10-11-2009, 07:01 PM

Oh rebuilding this is NOT an option as I have no garage and need it fixed yesterday as it my only wheels and I am self employed so no wheels equals no money.

andysutt · 10-12-2009, 07:41 AM

Are you trying to turn it over w/ the spark plugs in it? If so it'll only turn so far before it gets hard to turn.

Removing the starter does no good in making it spin easier, as it isnt engaged until you hit the key.

Also you might think you got the dizzy stabbed right but may not afterall. All else fails, pull the dizzy, disconnect the coil and see if it turns over that way and still makes the noise. If not its the dizzy

mrmontebuilder · 10-12-2009, 08:11 AM

Motor is stripped already, no intake,valve covers etc. I pulled the starter because it does crank with the starter but NOT by hand so I wanted to sure drive was not engaged. Distributor HAD to be right as truck started and ran fine and had oil pressure (50 psi at idle) if distributor was not engaging pump it would not be fully seated against the manifold which is easy to see. Plugs are out. Please read the previous posts as this was all covered further up. I am pulling the right head this morning as it sounds like there is a noise coming from that side just prior to it locking up when hand turning. I am starting to think one of the spider tubes spilt and flooded one of the cylinders full of fuel and it hydro-locked when I tried starting it and bent a rod but I will know more when head is pulled off it later on today.

mrmontebuilder · 10-12-2009, 12:39 PM

Took right head off and found a philips screw stuck in the piston, nothing from the truck looks like a wheel well opening molding screw. Not sure where it came from but motor spins all the way around and screw was mostly missing no damage to head but piston has some marks in it though. I am going to clean it off with some 2+2 carb cleaner and scrub it off to see how bad it really is. I hope it did not scar block because worst case is pull motor and put in one reman rod and a new piston and rings and screw it back together with a new timing chain and cover and also new clutch and slave and be done with it.

mrmontebuilder · 10-12-2009, 12:39 PM

It was back cylinder on the right side by the way.

mrmontebuilder · 10-12-2009, 12:50 PM

Here is a pic of the piston pretty well cleaned up. I think it may be viable still but the only real concern is spot towards the top edge where screw was "screwed" in, most of screw seems to be gone but I want to be sure before I just screw it together at this point.

mrmontebuilder · 10-12-2009, 01:28 PM

Here is the culprit , found both pieces so I think I will be OK. I priced out a head set and bolts and it will be around $75

Bills Dad · 10-12-2009, 06:35 PM

Dang..that sucks! glad you were able to find the cause though.

lesterl · 10-12-2009, 09:49 PM

Wow, Damn......

SH-60B · 10-12-2009, 10:16 PM

Yeah, that sucks, but you nailed the problem when you said you thought something was in there, no consolation tho.

mrmontebuilder · 10-12-2009, 10:25 PM

I got head gasket and bolts tonight as well as RTV for manifold end seals and a few oil filters for $56 at Autozone. Felpro gaskets and bolts, I am assuming my intake gaskets are still good as they were for a total of about 90 seconds? Also what can I clean the block with as I know the 3m cookies are a no-no? I hope to have it up and running by Wed. afternoon at latest. This is fun, I did this job on Friday because it was like 65 degrees and sunny, beautiful day and I figured my work was pretty well done until winter was over ha, ha, ha. I need to let other people work on my stuff, this is when problems start, other people's vehicles no problems at all just mine. I have a neighbor who swears Murphy's Law is really his life story and he said he feels like less of moron now as the person who always fixes his screw ups has one of his own LOL. If anyone sees the life I had before all this started please tell it to wait for me to come back!!!

mrmontebuilder · 10-12-2009, 10:26 PM

Yeah but I caused the problem fixing it while it still ran LOL

andysutt · 10-13-2009, 08:42 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by mrmontebuilder

Took right head off and found a philips screw stuck in the piston, nothing from the truck looks like a wheel well opening molding screw. Not sure where it came from but motor spins all the way around and screw was mostly missing no damage to head but piston has some marks in it though. I am going to clean it off with some 2+2 carb cleaner and scrub it off to see how bad it really is. I hope it did not scar block because worst case is pull motor and put in one reman rod and a new piston and rings and screw it back together with a new timing chain and cover and also new clutch and slave and be done with it.

This makes no sense...

If you ruined a piston, and scratched the block then you would have to have that cylinder honed at the bare minimum, and most likely bored.

You would not need a new rod, as it would be fine.

Glad you found the problem without to much trouble, sucks it happened, but could have been a total loss

CatDaddy52 · 10-13-2009, 09:12 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by mrmontebuilder

Here is a pic of the piston pretty well cleaned up. I think it may be viable still but the only real concern is spot towards the top edge where screw was "screwed" in, most of screw seems to be gone but I want to be sure before I just screw it together at this point.

Hopefully, the ring land wasn't crushed at the bottom of the piston where it looks to have the most damage.
Did you ever figure out where the stray screw came from?? Don't see too many drill-point screws on the engine...
Good luck!!

mrmontebuilder · 10-13-2009, 09:37 AM

andysutt- I meant if piston was junk BUT block OK then it would be easier to get a reman rod and new piston and have it pre-assembled and put it in and put it back together if block had damage I would have just put in an engine rather than screw around with machine work etc as I need it fixed.
CatDaddy- I used similar screws when I put in the alarm siren on the firewall and I found a stray when I took it apart and picked it off the manifold with a pair of needle nose and tossed it in the trash ( I know this because I emptied the trash can after this happened and played CSI to see if something was missing from the old parts and it was in the trash) as for the ring land well... I hope it is OK, slight smushing of piston on very bottom edge and I am going to dress the edge slightly with some emery cloth as there is a slight gap all around the piston and I just want to be sure it will not rub the bore as engine gets hot. Thing that surprises me is the screw stayed there for 2 pressure washings of the engine since alarm was done, stubborn little bugger!!!

Crew Cab Sonoma · 10-13-2009, 10:45 AM

your ring lands will likely be ok.
just curious, what year is your engine?

mrmontebuilder · 10-13-2009, 10:48 AM

2001, I am hoping this all goes well. AZ just called and my head bolts are in, I noticed going over the shop manual head bolt torque is in degrees so now I need a torque angle meter. As if spending $1500 3 weeks ago on a Genisys scanner was not enough LOL !!!

mrmontebuilder · 10-13-2009, 02:07 PM

Well I started dressing the piston top edge at the bottom with emery cloth and it is hammered ALOT worse than I thought. At this point I am thinking pan needs to come off and rod out to replace the piston. I hate this, one stupid thing and an easy job turns to crap in a second. Oh well, I am back out work on it some more fun,fun,fun.

mrmontebuilder · 10-13-2009, 02:08 PM

Here is the best picture I could get of it.

Bills Dad · 10-13-2009, 03:14 PM

It's up to you...not sure if rod may be damaged? Shoot...if it were me, I'd just slam it back together and get on with it!

mrmontebuilder · 10-13-2009, 03:20 PM

I am worried about the new protrusion on the piston scoring the block up once the piston gets hot and expands a bit. Once that happens I am out of options and the gaskets and bolts will be money flushed down the toilet and probably the block too. I am still "dressing" this and it looks a bit better, if I can make it so it will not be scoring the cylinder for certain I will slap it together and be done with it. My back up plan is a motor from an 08 Silverado with 4k miles on it, I saw pictures of it BUT I see it is DIS and throttle by wire so I know I will need to change some stuff but not sure if it will work or not as it is vin code X. Anyone who has done a swap like this please chime in as this maybe my only option soon.

mrmontebuilder · 10-13-2009, 06:16 PM

Well I think I got it cleaned up enough to chance putting it together, this was about 4 hours or so of picking and poking with various instruments to get it the way it is. I do not see anything protruding out like before and while I lost a little more piston top than I wanted I am pretty confident I will be fine. First pic is when I started and second pic is where I am at now. Sorry pics aren't the best but it is a crappy spot and I actually see better with the camera than my own eyes!

lesterl · 10-13-2009, 09:03 PM

Good luck...... :-)

mrmontebuilder · 10-13-2009, 10:13 PM

Thanks lesterl !!! I got the head all cleaned up and ready to go back on, will clean block tomorrow morning and start screwing it together. I hope this turns out better the second time around LOL.

Bills Dad · 10-13-2009, 10:39 PM

Geez, upon closer inspection I see what looks to me like possible piston material between piston and cylinder wall?? Not sure about this one?

mrmontebuilder · 10-13-2009, 10:52 PM

Bills Dad - you mean top photo?? If yes then it was which is why I did not just screw it together and hope fore the best. I have lots of 2 stroke bike experience and I have seen what a piston in one of those looks likes from a few hours in crappy conditions from just dirt so imagine how that would look in a few minutes with metal protruding out the side?? The metal you see was the result of the piston hitting the screw and getting a little squished, fortunately it did not crack or break so I cleaned it up with a pick and a few other scraping tools until it had sufficient clearance to be able to run safely. Will it last?? Don't know and at this point all I have to lose is the little sanity I have left. I looked at it like this - to get out piston oil pan needs to come off and from my understanding on 2wd to get it off you need to pull the motor so anyway this goes I am pulling the motor so I am trying the easiest cheap route first and if it works then great. I pulled apart a 350 before with 4 pistons looking MUCH worse than this and it ran great and it was only apart because I wanted to give a re-gasket and timing chain and fresh paint and it ran really good right up until I pulled it out.

Bills Dad · 10-14-2009, 12:59 AM

cool then! Get it together and behind you....don't ya just love fixin stuff

mrmontebuilder · 10-14-2009, 04:20 PM

I got head on and torqued down, exhaust manifold hooked up, rockers on and torqued and starter installed. Now it is just like putting together a LIM job, I checked everything as it went together about 90 times for screw-ups and hopefully it will be running tomorrow if weather holds out. Only other thing I will need to do is pull the overflow and scrub it out from dexcool and then just start assembling the mesterpiece.

10-08-2009, 11:28 PM	#1
mrmontebuilder Registered User Age: 39 Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 140 Location: User is: OffLine	LIM done and immediate knocking WTF!! I spent almost all day doing a LIM and valve cover gaskets and got it 99% finished and started it up to make sure timing was right and no fuel leaks and it knocks like there is someone in the pan with a BIG hammer trying to get out. I was super careful and did not use a cookie wheel to clean anything and I drained the anti-freeze before I started and although I did NOT change the oil it is still at the same level and clean just like before I started. I have done 25 or so small block intake gaskets and never had ANY problem other than stabbing the distributor off a tooth a few times and no leakers. I am at a loss and do not understand as motor ran great other than a slight dribble of anti-freeze out the LF where intake and head meet. Truck has 127k on it and uses zero oil and it just started leaking freeze last week and used 2-3 cups in a week or so. Not a bad leak but I still wanted to fix it and do all my hoses and stat before it got cold out. Anyone else have this happen?? I mean the knock is immediate as soon as it fires it is banging. I do not even have the belt back on it yet so it is nothing accessory wise doing it. I hate like hell to do an engine in this thing but I also hate like hell to rip it apart again. My only thought is I dropped something in it while it was apart but I was not short any bolts/nuts and all my tools seem present and accounted for. I will do a full inventory in the morning of tools and look it over again for any obvious screw ups but I know how my luck goes and I may as well order a motor now! Oh truck was ran a total of about 1 to 1 1/2 minutes total and I also at my dad's suggestion disconnected the coil and cranked it around a few times for about 20 seconds or so and it is quiet as a mouse when cranking. Last edited by mrmontebuilder : 10-08-2009 at 11:30 PM.
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10-08-2009, 11:30 PM	#2
wotgtp sup brah Age: 23 Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 2,469 Location: Connecticut User is: OffLine	Re: LIM done and immediate knocking WTF!! Damn man that sucks, i guess the only thing i can say is i hope everything works out?
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10-09-2009, 12:49 AM	#3
95tahoelt Registered User Age: 41 Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 403 Location: Westland, Michigan User is: OffLine	Re: LIM done and immediate knocking WTF!! it sounds to me like you drop something in there!
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10-09-2009, 07:47 PM	#4
jjimmy Registered User Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 180 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: LIM done and immediate knocking WTF!! Theres Water In Your Oil I hate to be the barer of bad news but I think your going to need a new set of main bearings. My friend had the same problem, check your lifters there not priming is my bet. what your hearing is the crank killing the bearings. If you didn't run it to long you should be fine and hopefully you don't need to replace the bearings. we ended up pulling the motor, it ran for to long with no oil. The oil gage read pressure all the time, the pressure sensor is before the oil gos to the lifter valley where it is then sent to the crankshaft, you get the idea you may read oil pressure but there is none really! If you drain your oil ill bet you’ll find water in the bottom of the pan. Sounds exactly like what happened to him and I looked at the dipstick and the oil looked clean no water, drained the pan and bad news. DONT RUN THE MOTOR TILL YOU CHECK you might save yourself a big bill. Look under the valve covers pull one or both and start the truck if you have no oiling you have water in the oil. If I'm right the reason you are hearing the knock is lack of oil. The water oil froth is thicker than oil and the pump cant prime, or hold pressure. TO FIX, drain the pan, pull the LIM remove your lifters and take them apart clean with break cleaner and reassemble and prim them with metal pump type oil can. The goal is to remove any water or frothy oil/water from them. well there out *** get something to spin the oil pump with, you need to fill the engine with "used oil I suggest" its going to be cheaper than buying 2 cases of oil prim the pump till the oil is clear of froth/water. You will end up filling and draining several times. I would disconnect the oil lines, other wise you’ll just fill them with water. Flush the oil lines. Once the oil in the block is coming out of the lifter galleys clean, reconnect the oil lines and recheck that the oil is clean. if it is reinstall the cleaned and primed lifters, push rods and rockers then the LIM. leave a valve cover off and start the engine to check for oil flow, if its pumping through the lifters your done if not you missed some water and you need to do the hole thin again. I think my friend still has a new set of lifters in the box if you want to replace yours rather than clean them. We originally thought that there was a stuck lifter. Feel free to contact me for help.
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10-09-2009, 07:52 PM	#5
mrmontebuilder Registered User Age: 39 Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 140 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: LIM done and immediate knocking WTF!! I ripped it apart again and found nothing inside and laid out all my tools and found nothing missing and went everything I discarded from the truck and all clamps were accounted for and no hardware left over or short either. I looked down all 6 intake ports with an inspection mirror and saw nothing and no evidence of anything being bounced around inside either. Pushrods do not appear bent and I see nothing amiss from the cam lobes I can see and the heads both had oil laying in them as well as all the rockers so I believe it is getting oil up top. I can only think that maybe some anti freeze got into a cylinder when i pulled the intake BUT I drained it thoroughly before disassembly and when I removed the manifold the only thing that came out of it was a bit of gas from the fuel lines nothing else and there was nothing in the valley either. I put a towel in the valley and stuffed towels in all the ports before i started cleaning the heads and just used a razor scraper as 99% of it came off with the gaskets which just peeled off nice and the silicone end "seals" peeled off in one piece too. I am lost and now pricing engines and I am thinking of junking it as I am into it for almost $3600 and it still needs a few small dents fixed and touch up and it is still a stick and worth about $3600 and to be honest this thing needs something once a week and it is just seeming like it is not worth sinking anymore in it now.
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10-09-2009, 07:53 PM	#6
jjimmy Registered User Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 180 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: LIM done and immediate knocking WTF!! I forgot the other part. There must have been a distributer cap screw on the motor before he started, we found it in one of the cylinders that was part of the slap. that then cracked the block. so check your cylinders to. he used a shopvac to clean the motor prior to dissasembly and it still got in there. He didn't drop it it must have been there before so be carefull. thats why we ended up pulling the motor. just bad luck two problems unrelated.
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10-09-2009, 08:01 PM	#7
mrmontebuilder Registered User Age: 39 Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 140 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: LIM done and immediate knocking WTF!! I doubt there was anything on the motor as I thoroughly pressure washed it about a week ago in anticipation of doing the hoses and stat and then the intake started dribbling and I figured I would do it all at once and be done with it. The ONLY thing I found in going over all this was I thought the distributor was missing the gasket but it was stuck to the distributor and it ended up with 2 gaskets on it but I seriously doubt that had anything to do with it as the distributor dropped right back in place and marks were dead on and it fully seated first try so I am 99.9% sure it line up fine. Funny thing is cranking it with coil disconnected for about 20 seconds or so and it makes zero noise at all and i did that about 10 times this morning and had my dad do it too while I listened with a stethoscope and I heard NO noise at all. I only have weird problems LOL
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10-09-2009, 08:09 PM	#8
andysutt Lifts are for 4wds! Age: 26 Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 1,613 Location: Conway Arkansas User is: OffLine	Re: LIM done and immediate knocking WTF!! Your saying a screw from a distributor made the block crack? Crazy never heard of anything falling into a cylinder crack a block, just scratching the living crap out of the cylinder.
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10-09-2009, 08:10 PM	#9
jjimmy Registered User Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 180 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: LIM done and immediate knocking WTF!! you wont see anything in the valves we didn't we had to pull the heads to find the screw. the heads should have oil on them, IT MEANS NOTHING unless you see it coming out of the rockers when the engine is running. drain your oil its that simple. the screw that went in the cylinder was a tiny distributer rotter screw and it cracked the cylinder wall. if you have oil coming out or the rockers, I would pull the heads $80 in gaskets is cheaper than a 800 motor. It also happens Ive been looking for a stick, what state are you in? If you do decide to get rid of it.
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10-09-2009, 08:14 PM	#10
jjimmy Registered User Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 180 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: LIM done and immediate knocking WTF!! that was not my call. that came from a man that has built race motors for 20+ years. I do agree with you, but how many 4.3L crack a cylinder wall under 120K, and just for odds add that its the same cylinder that had junk in it? the block castings are pretty good for the newer 4.3ls it was a 2001. Quote: Originally Posted by andysutt Your saying a screw from a distributor made the block crack? Crazy never heard of anything falling into a cylinder crack a block, just scratching the living crap out of the cylinder.
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10-09-2009, 08:41 PM	#11
Bills Dad Registered User Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 308 Location: upstate User is: OffLine	Re: LIM done and immediate knocking WTF!! Theres Water In Your Oil Quote: Originally Posted by jjimmy I hate to be the barer of bad news but I think your going to need a new set of main bearings. My friend had the same problem, check your lifters there not priming is my bet. what your hearing is the crank killing the bearings. If you didn't run it to long you should be fine and hopefully you don't need to replace the bearings. we ended up pulling the motor, it ran for to long with no oil. The oil gage read pressure all the time, the pressure sensor is before the oil gos to the lifter valley where it is then sent to the crankshaft, you get the idea you may read oil pressure but there is none really! If you drain your oil ill bet you’ll find water in the bottom of the pan. Sounds exactly like what happened to him and I looked at the dipstick and the oil looked clean no water, drained the pan and bad news. DONT RUN THE MOTOR TILL YOU CHECK you might save yourself a big bill. Look under the valve covers pull one or both and start the truck if you have no oiling you have water in the oil. If I'm right the reason you are hearing the knock is lack of oil. The water oil froth is thicker than oil and the pump cant prime, or hold pressure. TO FIX, drain the pan, pull the LIM remove your lifters and take them apart clean with break cleaner and reassemble and prim them with metal pump type oil can. The goal is to remove any water or frothy oil/water from them. well there out *** get something to spin the oil pump with, you need to fill the engine with "used oil I suggest" its going to be cheaper than buying 2 cases of oil prim the pump till the oil is clear of froth/water. You will end up filling and draining several times. I would disconnect the oil lines, other wise you’ll just fill them with water. Flush the oil lines. Once the oil in the block is coming out of the lifter galleys clean, reconnect the oil lines and recheck that the oil is clean. if it is reinstall the cleaned and primed lifters, push rods and rockers then the LIM. leave a valve cover off and start the engine to check for oil flow, if its pumping through the lifters your done if not you missed some water and you need to do the hole thin again. I think my friend still has a new set of lifters in the box if you want to replace yours rather than clean them. We originally thought that there was a stuck lifter. Feel free to contact me for help. A bit of work, but certainly worth the effort since the only real loss other than time/labor is the cost of oil & filter (which should be done after this type of operation), sounds plausible........
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10-09-2009, 09:08 PM	#12
mrmontebuilder Registered User Age: 39 Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 140 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: LIM done and immediate knocking WTF!! I was thinking of pulling the heads anyway but the thing that bothers me is I had the t-stat out before pulling the manifold and it was dry in there. The other thing that bothers me is if there is enough antifreeze in the pan to keep the oil pump from working the oil level would have to rise - it is simple physics matter takes up space so the oil would have to go somewhere. I may go get a priming tool tomorrow at harbor freight and see if I set the manifold back on if I get oil to the top end or not. If I do that means it is something else right?? I know changing the oil is necessary after doing an intake gasket but I have done many before on SBC motors and some I know had a cup or so of antifreeze run in the valley BUT I always do a run for a few seconds to make sure timing is right etc before I do a final button up and fill with antifreeze and if all is well I drain and change oil and filter and run it an hour or two and change it again and then again in a few days to be safe and never had a single issue. Between ones for myself on my own vehicles I did 15 and at least that many on other peoples cars so this is not my first time around the block. Not saying I know everything but I am extremely careful and OCD about checking things. I will post back tomorrow on situation to let you all know what I find out. I hope it is simple BUT I know my luck !!
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10-09-2009, 10:12 PM	#13
lesterl Wire Splicin Fool :-) Age: 30 Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 5,055 Location: Harrisonville, MO User is: OffLine	Re: LIM done and immediate knocking WTF!! Get the gaskets on right?
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10-09-2009, 11:14 PM	#14
mrmontebuilder Registered User Age: 39 Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 140 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: LIM done and immediate knocking WTF!! Yes gaskets were locked in fine with locking tabs. I looked at anti-freeze I drained out and I have about 2 1/2 or so gallons bottled up to recycle and lost some on the ground too and overflow is still at full line and I am sure there is some on the core too so if any went into the engine I do not think it would be much.
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10-10-2009, 07:53 PM	#15
jjimmy Registered User Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 180 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: LIM done and immediate knocking WTF!! did you drain the oil yet?
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10-10-2009, 08:16 PM	#16
mrmontebuilder Registered User Age: 39 Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 140 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: LIM done and immediate knocking WTF!! no it rained almost all day and I have no garage, supposed to be nice tomorrow and if it is will do it by 9am or so.
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10-11-2009, 11:55 AM	#17
mrmontebuilder Registered User Age: 39 Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 140 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: LIM done and immediate knocking WTF!! Drained the oil and it was nice and clean just like 1000 miles ago when I changed it, no water, gas or metal particles in it. I did pull all the plugs out and manually turned it over with a ratchet and it goes about 1 1/2 turns in either direction and stops and locks up so I am assuming it ingested something. Worst part is I was super careful working on this and found nothing missing at all tool or part wise so I am beginning to think when I went in to take a break when it was apart maybe someone dropped something in it to be a PITA, I do not have any enemies in my neighborhood as far as I know but who knows?? I am trying to get a borescope to see in the cylinders without taking it apart but so far no luck. I will post back when I find out more.
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10-11-2009, 11:57 AM	#18
andysutt Lifts are for 4wds! Age: 26 Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 1,613 Location: Conway Arkansas User is: OffLine	Re: LIM done and immediate knocking WTF!! You might could use a magnet on one of those long expanding rods to see if you can find anything. I know it will stick to the motor as well, but it could possibly work
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10-11-2009, 04:56 PM	#19
mrmontebuilder Registered User Age: 39 Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 140 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: LIM done and immediate knocking WTF!! I got a borescope and while I could not see everything I saw pretty much nothing in any of the cylinders. After that we loosened all the rockers so the valves would all be closed and still spins and locks up again same amount in either direction. We proceeded to hook up the starter and it cranks pretty normal but you can hear/feel something when it is cranking. I took the starter off completely and tried turning by hand again and no go still locking up like before. I am at a loss now and next is pulling the heads and seeing what is visible from there. If nothing is visible engine comes out and then the wallet begins leaking cash like no tomorrow.
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10-11-2009, 05:14 PM	#20
1fast4by I'll need human lives... Age: 26 Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 10,379 Location: Green Hills/Nashville User is: OffLine	Re: LIM done and immediate knocking WTF!! You sure you got the distributer into the oil pump? Sound like you didnt to me.. Its an easy fix.
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10-11-2009, 06:46 PM	#21
95tahoelt Registered User Age: 41 Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 403 Location: Westland, Michigan User is: OffLine	Re: LIM done and immediate knocking WTF!! I bet you spun a main or two, if so you'll have to align bore the block.
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10-11-2009, 07:00 PM	#22
mrmontebuilder Registered User Age: 39 Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 140 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: LIM done and immediate knocking WTF!! Distributor was fully seated and dropped in first shot, if it spun a main I would think it would have zero oil pressure or very little. This thing has 35 or so when cranking and 50 as soon as it starts up and is idling. Tomorrow heads come off, at this point I have pretty much written motor off but curiosity has the better of me and I NEED to know what happened. So who can tell me with 100% certainty what motors will fit this?? I am looking at an 08 Express van engine with 4k miles and I know I need to change the intake and exhaust manifolds to accommodate the EGR but it is vin X so I do not know if it will work or not and I do not want to buy it on a guess. I can get that motor for around $900 delivered complete so this will also allow me to upgrade from poppets to injectors as well I believe and figuring that in the mix would make the other 01 motor I found for $600 with 74k not such a big savings figuring on an average of $250ish for the injector changeover plus it has an additional 70k miles on it too. Also is it easier to pull trans before motor because it is a stick and I do not want to fight to get it lined up again or just leave the trans in place , looks kind of tight to get bellhousing bolts out so I may pull both together, not sure yet. I have done 15 or so A/G body motors and I pulled engine and trans together and joined them back together on the ground in the open but this looks a bit tighter than they do.
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10-11-2009, 07:01 PM	#23
mrmontebuilder Registered User Age: 39 Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 140 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: LIM done and immediate knocking WTF!! Oh rebuilding this is NOT an option as I have no garage and need it fixed yesterday as it my only wheels and I am self employed so no wheels equals no money.
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10-12-2009, 07:41 AM	#24
andysutt Lifts are for 4wds! Age: 26 Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 1,613 Location: Conway Arkansas User is: OffLine	Re: LIM done and immediate knocking WTF!! Are you trying to turn it over w/ the spark plugs in it? If so it'll only turn so far before it gets hard to turn. Removing the starter does no good in making it spin easier, as it isnt engaged until you hit the key. Also you might think you got the dizzy stabbed right but may not afterall. All else fails, pull the dizzy, disconnect the coil and see if it turns over that way and still makes the noise. If not its the dizzy
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10-12-2009, 08:11 AM	#25
mrmontebuilder Registered User Age: 39 Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 140 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: LIM done and immediate knocking WTF!! Motor is stripped already, no intake,valve covers etc. I pulled the starter because it does crank with the starter but NOT by hand so I wanted to sure drive was not engaged. Distributor HAD to be right as truck started and ran fine and had oil pressure (50 psi at idle) if distributor was not engaging pump it would not be fully seated against the manifold which is easy to see. Plugs are out. Please read the previous posts as this was all covered further up. I am pulling the right head this morning as it sounds like there is a noise coming from that side just prior to it locking up when hand turning. I am starting to think one of the spider tubes spilt and flooded one of the cylinders full of fuel and it hydro-locked when I tried starting it and bent a rod but I will know more when head is pulled off it later on today.
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10-12-2009, 12:39 PM	#26
mrmontebuilder Registered User Age: 39 Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 140 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: LIM done and immediate knocking WTF!! Took right head off and found a philips screw stuck in the piston, nothing from the truck looks like a wheel well opening molding screw. Not sure where it came from but motor spins all the way around and screw was mostly missing no damage to head but piston has some marks in it though. I am going to clean it off with some 2+2 carb cleaner and scrub it off to see how bad it really is. I hope it did not scar block because worst case is pull motor and put in one reman rod and a new piston and rings and screw it back together with a new timing chain and cover and also new clutch and slave and be done with it.
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10-12-2009, 12:50 PM	#28
mrmontebuilder Registered User Age: 39 Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 140 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: LIM done and immediate knocking WTF!! Here is a pic of the piston pretty well cleaned up. I think it may be viable still but the only real concern is spot towards the top edge where screw was "screwed" in, most of screw seems to be gone but I want to be sure before I just screw it together at this point.
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10-12-2009, 01:28 PM	#29
mrmontebuilder Registered User Age: 39 Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 140 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: LIM done and immediate knocking WTF!! Here is the culprit , found both pieces so I think I will be OK. I priced out a head set and bolts and it will be around $75
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10-12-2009, 06:35 PM	#30
Bills Dad Registered User Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 308 Location: upstate User is: OffLine	Re: LIM done and immediate knocking WTF!! Dang..that sucks! glad you were able to find the cause though.
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10-12-2009, 09:49 PM	#31
lesterl Wire Splicin Fool :-) Age: 30 Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 5,055 Location: Harrisonville, MO User is: OffLine	Re: LIM done and immediate knocking WTF!! Wow, Damn......
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10-12-2009, 10:16 PM	#32
SH-60B Registered Neanderthal Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 2,747 Location: Meriden/CT/USA User is: OffLine	Re: LIM done and immediate knocking WTF!! Yeah, that sucks, but you nailed the problem when you said you thought something was in there, no consolation tho.
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10-12-2009, 10:25 PM	#33
mrmontebuilder Registered User Age: 39 Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 140 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: LIM done and immediate knocking WTF!! I got head gasket and bolts tonight as well as RTV for manifold end seals and a few oil filters for $56 at Autozone. Felpro gaskets and bolts, I am assuming my intake gaskets are still good as they were for a total of about 90 seconds? Also what can I clean the block with as I know the 3m cookies are a no-no? I hope to have it up and running by Wed. afternoon at latest. This is fun, I did this job on Friday because it was like 65 degrees and sunny, beautiful day and I figured my work was pretty well done until winter was over ha, ha, ha. I need to let other people work on my stuff, this is when problems start, other people's vehicles no problems at all just mine. I have a neighbor who swears Murphy's Law is really his life story and he said he feels like less of moron now as the person who always fixes his screw ups has one of his own LOL. If anyone sees the life I had before all this started please tell it to wait for me to come back!!!
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10-12-2009, 10:26 PM	#34
mrmontebuilder Registered User Age: 39 Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 140 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: LIM done and immediate knocking WTF!! Yeah but I caused the problem fixing it while it still ran LOL
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10-13-2009, 08:42 AM	#35
andysutt Lifts are for 4wds! Age: 26 Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 1,613 Location: Conway Arkansas User is: OffLine	Re: LIM done and immediate knocking WTF!! Quote: Originally Posted by mrmontebuilder Took right head off and found a philips screw stuck in the piston, nothing from the truck looks like a wheel well opening molding screw. Not sure where it came from but motor spins all the way around and screw was mostly missing no damage to head but piston has some marks in it though. I am going to clean it off with some 2+2 carb cleaner and scrub it off to see how bad it really is. I hope it did not scar block because worst case is pull motor and put in one reman rod and a new piston and rings and screw it back together with a new timing chain and cover and also new clutch and slave and be done with it. This makes no sense... If you ruined a piston, and scratched the block then you would have to have that cylinder honed at the bare minimum, and most likely bored. You would not need a new rod, as it would be fine. Glad you found the problem without to much trouble, sucks it happened, but could have been a total loss
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10-13-2009, 09:12 AM	#36
CatDaddy52 Registered User Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 1,102 Location: Rochester Hizzle, MI User is: OffLine	Re: LIM done and immediate knocking WTF!! Quote: Originally Posted by mrmontebuilder Here is a pic of the piston pretty well cleaned up. I think it may be viable still but the only real concern is spot towards the top edge where screw was "screwed" in, most of screw seems to be gone but I want to be sure before I just screw it together at this point. Hopefully, the ring land wasn't crushed at the bottom of the piston where it looks to have the most damage. Did you ever figure out where the stray screw came from?? Don't see too many drill-point screws on the engine... Good luck!!
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