How did GM get 260 hp out of the ZZ4.3? - S-10 Forum
 
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post #1 of 25 Old 07-21-2013, 06:24 AM Thread Starter
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How did GM get 260 hp out of the ZZ4.3?

Remember the 4.3 GM built that had 260 hp? They were considering making it a factory option or special edition but scrapped the option. Anyone know how they got this kind of HP out of this motor? I'm assuming they completely redesigned the intake for one but idk. What all else they could have done. Considering these motors don't really wake up to mods as well as most engines.

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post #2 of 25 Old 07-21-2013, 11:49 AM
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Re: How did GM get 260 hp out of the ZZ4.3?

The 2002 - 2003 Silverado and GMC Sierra , 4.3L V6 LU3 engine, was factory rated at 260 HP with a direct port fuel injection or what GM called Multi Port Fuel Injection (MPFI). The LU3 engine used the same design Vortec heads that were introduced in 1996. A new camshaft was introduced in 2002 for that engine. The new camshaft was the same in lift and duration as the 1996-2001 camshafts except it has cam lobe valve closing ramps that were profiled to reduce lifter "lofting" (valve float) above 4,000 RPM and lifter noise at cold start without increasing valve spring pressure..

Since the new cam profile was introduced in 2002 for the Silverado and Sierra, the 260 advertised horsepower rating was taken at 4,600 RPM whereas the other 2002-2009 4.3L engine advertised horsepower ratings were taken at 4,400 RPM. If the 260 advertised horsepower rating was taken at 4,400 RPM, the horsepower rating would have been 190 - 200 HP.

The GM engineers wanted to prove to the front office that the new camshaft profile worked with no other changes.
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post #3 of 25 Old 07-21-2013, 06:36 PM
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Re: How did GM get 260 hp out of the ZZ4.3?

Sixpack I don't think I understand what you are saying. It sounds like you are saying that the 260hp 4.3's made 200ish hp at 4400rpm, and 260 at 4600rpm. Picture that dyno graph in your mind, that is a spike that many turbo cars would be proud to own. Again, maybe I don't understand your point but thats what I pictured in my mind.

I don't know anything about GM crate 4.3 but here is a 262hp blueprint engine. It's got 9.5 compression, cast iron vortec intake and heads, 2.02/1.60 valves and no cam specs listed.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ml...Fcbm7Aodo0MA_A
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post #4 of 25 Old 07-21-2013, 06:54 PM
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Re: How did GM get 260 hp out of the ZZ4.3?

Also, I just noticed it says "marine engine". I'm not sure what the difference is, as long as you can mate a flex plate to one end and engine accessories to the other..

I went to their website and found that it has a flat tappet cam, well you can read about it here. Cam specs are on this page also. 218 duration, .457 lift.

http://www.blueprintengines.com/inde...bp262ct-marine

Sorry if I am hijacking this post with information on the GM crate engine, I have looked and cant find anything on that one, but I thought info on the Blueprint engine of similar hp would be better than nothing.

If someone were to put a comparable cam, and vortec heads/intake on their S-10, would it not make similar hp at the crank to these engines?
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post #5 of 25 Old 07-21-2013, 08:52 PM Thread Starter
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Re: How did GM get 260 hp out of the ZZ4.3?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SixPack View Post
The 2002 - 2003 Silverado and GMC Sierra , 4.3L V6 LU3 engine, was factory rated at 260 HP with a direct port fuel injection or what GM called Multi Port Fuel Injection (MPFI). The LU3 engine used the same design Vortec heads that were introduced in 1996. A new camshaft was introduced in 2002 for that engine. The new camshaft was the same in lift and duration as the 1996-2001 camshafts except it has cam lobe valve closing ramps that were profiled to reduce lifter "lofting" (valve float) above 4,000 RPM and lifter noise at cold start without increasing valve spring pressure..

Since the new cam profile was introduced in 2002 for the Silverado and Sierra, the 260 advertised horsepower rating was taken at 4,600 RPM whereas the other 2002-2009 4.3L engine advertised horsepower ratings were taken at 4,400 RPM. If the 260 advertised horsepower rating was taken at 4,400 RPM, the horsepower rating would have been 190 - 200 HP.



The GM engineers wanted to prove to the front office that the new camshaft profile worked with no other changes.



I'm talking about the 4.3 that was never released to the public. The one that GM had planned for a factory option in the 2003? S10. The option also included American Racing Torque Thrust 2 wheels. The extended cab ran a 15.4 at 90 mph.
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post #6 of 25 Old 07-21-2013, 09:26 PM
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Re: How did GM get 260 hp out of the ZZ4.3?

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Also, I just noticed it says "marine engine". I'm not sure what the difference is, as long as you can mate a flex plate to one end and engine accessories to the other..

I went to their website and found that it has a flat tappet cam, well you can read about it here. Cam specs are on this page also. 218 duration, .457 lift.

http://www.blueprintengines.com/inde...bp262ct-marine

Sorry if I am hijacking this post with information on the GM crate engine, I have looked and cant find anything on that one, but I thought info on the Blueprint engine of similar hp would be better than nothing.

If someone were to put a comparable cam, and vortec heads/intake on their S-10, would it not make similar hp at the crank to these engines?

The 1996-2009 4.3L V6 "Vortec" MPFI heads will not fit 1987-1995 TBI and CPI intake manifolds. The camshaft used in the 2002-2009 Silverado and Sierra LU3 engines was called the "quiet cam" by GM engineers. That camshaft produced additional horsepower above 4,400 RPM by reducing valve float. That cam was developed because of numerous complaints and warranty issues because of noisy lifters before the engine warmed up. The revised closing ramps on the 2002-2009 LU3 camshafts also conrolled valve float above 4,400 RPM for additional horsepower. Having additional horsepower above 4,400 RPM was of no interest to the general public but the reduction of lifter noise on cold starts was.

The same amount of horsepower increase could have been accomplished by using stronger valve springs, but with increased valve train wear. The valve train wear issue is why the GM engineers did not choose that option and redesigned the cams profile instead.

The valve lift and duration of all 1987-2009 factory 4.3L roller camshafts are about the same.
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post #7 of 25 Old 07-21-2013, 11:33 PM
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Re: How did GM get 260 hp out of the ZZ4.3?

Where did this 260HP cam-only factory V6 suddenly come from?!

So, all these poor chumps bolting on super- and turbochargers and nitrous could have just gotten a V6 from a 2002-2003 Silverado/Sierra? Why has something this simple taken 10 years to surface?

I'm seeing a lot of holes in this cheese...

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post #8 of 25 Old 07-22-2013, 07:49 AM Thread Starter
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Re: How did GM get 260 hp out of the ZZ4.3?

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Where did this 260HP cam-only factory V6 suddenly come from?!

So, all these poor chumps bolting on super- and turbochargers and nitrous could have just gotten a V6 from a 2002-2003 Silverado/Sierra? Why has something this simple taken 10 years to surface?

I'm seeing a lot of holes in this cheese...

lol yeah that guy killed my post and confused the hell out of some people. I'm confident that you know what I'm talking about though right?
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post #9 of 25 Old 07-22-2013, 08:48 AM
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Re: How did GM get 260 hp out of the ZZ4.3?

Yeah, it was like their common Ramjet 350, minus 2 cylinders. Besides the intake, special cam, and tuning, I'm not sure what else was done. I would assume headwork to accommodate the intake's flow and cam's lift.

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post #10 of 25 Old 07-22-2013, 01:24 PM
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Re: How did GM get 260 hp out of the ZZ4.3?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SixPack View Post
The 2002 - 2003 Silverado and GMC Sierra , 4.3L V6 LU3 engine, was factory rated at 260 HP with a direct port fuel injection or what GM called Multi Port Fuel Injection (MPFI). The LU3 engine used the same design Vortec heads that were introduced in 1996. A new camshaft was introduced in 2002 for that engine. The new camshaft was the same in lift and duration as the 1996-2001 camshafts except it has cam lobe valve closing ramps that were profiled to reduce lifter "lofting" (valve float) above 4,000 RPM and lifter noise at cold start without increasing valve spring pressure..

Since the new cam profile was introduced in 2002 for the Silverado and Sierra, the 260 advertised horsepower rating was taken at 4,600 RPM whereas the other 2002-2009 4.3L engine advertised horsepower ratings were taken at 4,400 RPM. If the 260 advertised horsepower rating was taken at 4,400 RPM, the horsepower rating would have been 190 - 200 HP.

The GM engineers wanted to prove to the front office that the new camshaft profile worked with no other changes.
False.
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post #11 of 25 Old 07-22-2013, 01:27 PM
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Re: How did GM get 260 hp out of the ZZ4.3?

http://www.pickuptrucks.com/html/sto...oys/toys1.html
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post #12 of 25 Old 07-23-2013, 12:38 AM
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Re: How did GM get 260 hp out of the ZZ4.3?

According to the article posted, the additional power came from the intake. It did not mention anything else. I suspect something else would have been changed though and here is why. If you google "TPI shootout", you will a bunch of websites talking about the Superrod magazine Feb issue of some year I cannot recall. But in the issue they tested miniram, stealthram, tpi, single plane FI, and a bunch of other setups. The single plane intake was pretty comparable to the big plenum, short runner intakes like the miniram and stealth ram. Those intakes are similar to the ZZ intake. Bearing this in mind, the dual plane air gap intakes are not far off from single plane intakes.
Here is a video camparing a victor junior single plane to a dual plane air gap.

Ok so what am I getting at? Edelbrock makes dual plane air gap intakes for the 4.3's. I am not sure, but I don't think those add anywhere near 60hp, so that article stating the ZZ intake was worth 60hp does not add up. I admit that I may be wrong, but this is just some food for thought.
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post #13 of 25 Old 07-23-2013, 12:43 AM
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Re: How did GM get 260 hp out of the ZZ4.3?

Yeah it took more than an intake manifold to bump the 4.3
65-70 hp.

Of course, their dyno methods could also be a contributing factor.
If they dyno the engine in the typical non-factory fashion, it was basically
a "gross" rating.
Apples to oranges comparison when you compare these figures to the
factory's SAE "net" rating of 190-195 hp.

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post #14 of 25 Old 07-23-2013, 01:15 AM
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Re: How did GM get 260 hp out of the ZZ4.3?

BTW, I found a great link to that article I mentioned, incase anyone is curious about number crunching different intake manifolds.

http://xtremecarzone.com.au/index.php?showtopic=386

Unfortunatly I just realized that I was thinking it was a ramjet style intake manifold. But the ZZ4 intake is just a dual plane. But its all posted now, for those who care to read over it.
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post #15 of 25 Old 07-23-2013, 08:36 AM Thread Starter
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Re: How did GM get 260 hp out of the ZZ4.3?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crew Cab Sonoma View Post
Yeah it took more than an intake manifold to bump the 4.3
65-70 hp.

Of course, their dyno methods could also be a contributing factor.
If they dyno the engine in the typical non-factory fashion, it was basically
a "gross" rating.
Apples to oranges comparison when you compare these figures to the
factory's SAE "net" rating of 190-195 hp.

Yeah but considering the truck was extended cab and ran a 15.4 at 90 mph with 17 inch wheels I would definitely think it had a good bit more power than a regular 4.3 no matter the dyno method. They could only get it to do 0-60 in 8.2 seconds. Seems like they were having traction issues as well.
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post #16 of 25 Old 07-23-2013, 12:53 PM
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Re: How did GM get 260 hp out of the ZZ4.3?

I know the ZZ4.3 had a higher compression than the stock 4.3, so that accounts for some of the hp gain. I snapped pics of the S-10 "Xtreme Force" at Cars at Carlisle which had the ZZ4.3. One of the pics had a poster with all of the specs on the engine. I'll post it when I have a chance. All of the specs online say the Xtreme Force had 400+ hp, I'm pretty sure the one at the car show just said 260hp but I don't remember. It definitely had the exact same intake manifold the ZZ4.3 has.

Here's a pic of the ZZ4.3 engine
http://www.s10forum.com/forum/f17/zz...uction-144275/

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post #17 of 25 Old 07-23-2013, 09:04 PM
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Re: How did GM get 260 hp out of the ZZ4.3?

Well nevermind I was wrong, it still had the 450hp 4.5L V6. Worth showing off some pics of anyways.

http://imageshack.us/a/img829/9919/b6u7.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img189/2948/qlg1.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img834/2751/zs0f.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img94/5631/es9n.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img577/3621/tli1.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img39/508/ili.JPG
http://imageshack.us/a/img194/473/xt67.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img825/6148/t6by.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img51/1376/zrq4.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img823/8452/yz8q.jpg

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post #18 of 25 Old 07-24-2013, 02:19 AM
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Re: How did GM get 260 hp out of the ZZ4.3?

I remember back in the mid-late 90's when that thing first showed up in some truck magazine. I drooled over that mag for years heh. Had forgotten all about it until this post. The high idle the article talked about makes me wonder how radical the camshaft was. Peak HP @ 7000rpm, wow, I wonder what the shift rpm was.
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post #19 of 25 Old 07-24-2013, 05:16 AM
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Re: How did GM get 260 hp out of the ZZ4.3?

I like how it says on that Xtreme Force poster "It was created to visualize the many options they have to modifying their s-10 pickups. Ha...many.

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Mods: Marine Intake, Bosch 42# "Green Giant" injectors, 270ahr cam, Keith Black pistons (8.7:1 cr), Eagle H-beam rods, PBM valve springs, 3-angle cut valves, slight head work (bowls blended). Self-tuned with HPTuners. 4.10 gears, Competition Engineering traction bars.
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post #20 of 25 Old 07-24-2013, 12:18 PM
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Re: How did GM get 260 hp out of the ZZ4.3?

IIRC dogsofjune dynoed his truck normally aspirated before/after swapping to the 2114 MPFI setup and he gained about 10 hp. There are plenty of relatively mild 4.3 builds making 270 hp so it's not that hard to imagine.

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post #21 of 25 Old 07-24-2013, 02:14 PM
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Re: How did GM get 260 hp out of the ZZ4.3?

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Yeah but considering the truck was extended cab and ran a 15.4 at 90 mph with 17 inch wheels I would definitely think it had a good bit more power than a regular 4.3 no matter the dyno method. They could only get it to do 0-60 in 8.2 seconds. Seems like they were having traction issues as well.
Not really, my 2000 extended cab with basic air intake/exhaust/3.42 gears with a 5 speed ran 15.6 and it weighed in a 3700lbs...

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post #22 of 25 Old 07-24-2013, 02:55 PM
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Re: How did GM get 260 hp out of the ZZ4.3?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rentedmule View Post
IIRC dogsofjune dynoed his truck normally aspirated before/after swapping to the 2114 MPFI setup and he gained about 10 hp. There are plenty of relatively mild 4.3 builds making 270 hp so it's not that hard to imagine.
theres another member that swapped from the marine to the 2114 making about 325whp with a turbo that reported no gains as well. he doesnt have a cam though, which is where i think the intake would benefit more from. user name is septis i think.

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post #23 of 25 Old 07-24-2013, 08:52 PM Thread Starter
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Re: How did GM get 260 hp out of the ZZ4.3?

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Not really, my 2000 extended cab with basic air intake/exhaust/3.42 gears with a 5 speed ran 15.6 and it weighed in a 3700lbs...

did you have good traction? The ZZ4.3 truck only did 0-60 in 8.2 seconds. I doubt it was hooking worth a damn. Not to mention a 15.6 isnt exactly the norm for one of these trucks with only an intake and exhaust without a sticky tire. You know that as well as I do.
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post #24 of 25 Old 07-25-2013, 12:24 PM
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Re: How did GM get 260 hp out of the ZZ4.3?

I switched from the spider injection to the marine a few years back and picked up maybe 10 hp and 10 ft-lbs at peak. It did move the torque curve a little bit. I have the dyno graphs at home I could scan in.

I could see the ZZ4.3 intake adding maybe 15-20hp from the high rise design and straight run into the cylinders. I know with the marine and stock intake manifold the runners cross under the intake pendulum.

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post #25 of 25 Old 07-25-2013, 01:29 PM
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Re: How did GM get 260 hp out of the ZZ4.3?

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Originally Posted by The Big Al View Post
did you have good traction? The ZZ4.3 truck only did 0-60 in 8.2 seconds. I doubt it was hooking worth a damn. Not to mention a 15.6 isnt exactly the norm for one of these trucks with only an intake and exhaust without a sticky tire. You know that as well as I do.
Not really, 2.2-2.4 60 foot times.

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