HHO injection on 2002 Blazer Xtreme 4.3L Results

[jbalat]

Ok this is my latest setup with the oversized bubbler unit which recirculates electrolyte around the cell..I did this because I found the cell was overheating because of its relatively small size.

Hope you like the pics.
Just need to drop the electrolyte concentration a little and its ready to go in the car.

[rtsurfer]

Looks good man. keep it going.

will post more on what i am up too soon. test test test

[2000extemeturbo]

OK, I found some stuff at a hardware store one town over. It is Rooter brand drain cleaner. It says in big bold print on the label " contains 100% household lye"

I used 1 heaping tablespoon per gallon, and I still cannot get any reasonable production at 12 volts. But now, when I bump up the voltage to 24V, production is off the charts, but after a couple minutes, my cables heat up and then it starts to throw my 100A circuit breaker every 8-10 seconds.
I've got a 100 amp shunt in line with the breaker, but I'm not exactly sure of what to look for in voltage drop as we use this shunt on -48V systems.

Again, I've got 6X6 plates configured as follows

+NNNNN-NNNNN+NNNNN-NNNNN+

[jbalat]

You really need a good amp and voltage gauge so you know what is going on.

[rtsurfer]

24v will be way too mych voltage for that set up you may have voltage current loss,

Try 2 teaspoons per gallon but lets see some pics.

[jbalat]

Ok all installed in the car but nowhere to run the the trigger wire for the hho relay.... I have only a single wire coming off my Oil pressure switch so when I link to it the oil light comes on.. Also my car doesnt have a fule pump relay.
(My only idea is to run a seperate oil switch (2 wire) off a t-piece ?

[2000extemeturbo]

OK, I took the cell apart today to change the way the edges of the plates are covered. I got a strange supprise.

this is the negative side of one plate

this is the positive


the rusty brown buildup is at the bottom of the cell, on the negative side of every plate. There are only two possible reasons I can come up with for this happening.

1. My first thought was that the plates were too close together, and once the reaction started, the electrolite was just touching the bottom of the plates, and the rest of the cavity was not reacting . ----> solution, open the plate spacing some.

2 After complete dissassembly, and half way through putting it back together I had another thought. I am getting a brown VERY ACIDIC sludge in my electrolite, part of it is oily, and floats, and the rest settles on the bottom. My cell sits very close to the bottom of the tank, and the discoloration could be from the sludge on the bottom. ----> solution, raise the cell off the bottom, and figure out how to avoid getting sludge.

My first way of putting the cell together was just to use tie wraps as spacers, like the top photos.

This time I used butyl backed rubber strips wrapped around the edge of the plates to help stop leakage. This opens the gap about 20% between the plates.

[jbalat]

Awesome !!

Got my unit finally connected to the fuel pump all the way from the back of the car..

Drove home from my brothers workshop (20mins) and no incidents.. Slightly warm and still hadn't blown the 20 amp fuse.

Will fill up tomorrow with a new tank of gas and see how I go..

I was hoping to get an O2 extender made up since they are not available here in Australia. My O2 is 18mm diam at 1.5pitch. I will see how I go without one for at least 1 tank.

[Yodamaker]

Hey guys I have been researching the computer enhancements to no end and have found several solutions. The O2 sensor enhancer's out their are all using the same principal but the main thing is usability and function. I have been testing out the units produced by Fuel Savers ( http://www.fuelsaver-mpg.com/ ) and they seem to be the most solid of all the units I have been working with. The support is undeniably the best I have dealt with. In fact, I felt good enough about them to become a dealer for thier O2 EFIE's.

So, I have been offering them with all the kits I have listed on my site. Oh yea!!! The Greater Technologies online store is up and running and you can see it at http://www.greatertech.com/ or directly to the store page at http://www.greatertech.com/store.html I have the basic foundations set up and the support forums in place now for the hydro hybrid project and also have started the areas for the wind and solar toechnologies. I would be greatly honored to have you guys check it out and possibly post in the forums there.

You guys are awesome, and have helped me in the past. I would love to be able to return the favor.

[jbalat]

Guys just a quick update and a topic for discussion..

- I have done over 200km now with the HHO but I really cant notice any difference at this stage. could be the ECU compensating but should have some data in the next few days. My O2 extender is on order...

- Just thinking about how the HHO is injected?
Why would you mix it in with the air which then becomes part of the air fuel mix?
If the ECU cuts down then amount of fuel it is also cutting down the HHO.. The ratio of HHO to fuel air fuel mix will only depend on how many LPM you get from your cell so it will remain constant.

Would it be better to inject all the HHO seperately (somehow) and then vary the amount of fuel/air mix via the ECU until the car has enough power to idle/cruise ?

[rtsurfer]

What size engine do youhave and what is the liters per minute you are producing.

Quote: Originally Posted by jbalat

Guys just a quick update and a topic for discussion..

- I have done over 200km now with the HHO but I really cant notice any difference at this stage. could be the ECU compensating but should have some data in the next few days. My O2 extender is on order...

- Just thinking about how the HHO is injected?
Why would you mix it in with the air which then becomes part of the air fuel mix?
If the ECU cuts down then amount of fuel it is also cutting down the HHO.. The ratio of HHO to fuel air fuel mix will only depend on how many LPM you get from your cell so it will remain constant.

Would it be better to inject all the HHO seperately (somehow) and then vary the amount of fuel/air mix via the ECU until the car has enough power to idle/cruise ?

[2000extemeturbo]

Quote: Originally Posted by jbalat

Guys just a quick update and a topic for discussion..

- I have done over 200km now with the HHO but I really cant notice any difference at this stage. could be the ECU compensating but should have some data in the next few days. My O2 extender is on order...

- Just thinking about how the HHO is injected?
Why would you mix it in with the air which then becomes part of the air fuel mix?
If the ECU cuts down then amount of fuel it is also cutting down the HHO.. The ratio of HHO to fuel air fuel mix will only depend on how many LPM you get from your cell so it will remain constant.

Would it be better to inject all the HHO seperately (somehow) and then vary the amount of fuel/air mix via the ECU until the car has enough power to idle/cruise ?

The ECU does not control the amount of air entering an engine (the gas pedal opens the throttle body to let more air in). The ECU adds enough fuel to properly mix with the air.

What we want to happen is for the ECU to THINK there is less air, so that it will add less fuel.

[lesterl]

Harbour Freight has 2" round dash mount ampmeter and voltmeter guages for $5

[jbalat]

Quote: Originally Posted by 2000extemeturbo

The ECU does not control the amount of air entering an engine (the gas pedal opens the throttle body to let more air in). The ECU adds enough fuel to properly mix with the air.

What we want to happen is for the ECU to THINK there is less air, so that it will add less fuel.

Is there another way to reduce the duty cycle on the fuel injector ?

BTW.. I have a 3 Litre V6 Petrol Engine.. I 'ESTIMATE' at the moment I am getting just around 1.4 L/Min at around 22 Amps...

[jbalat]

Just a quicky.. I am injecting into the air box on the engine side of the air filter but before the air flow sensor..

Is there any data on where the best place is to inject the HHO

Has anyone thought about using a GAS injector

[2000extemeturbo]

Quote: Originally Posted by jbalat

Is there another way to reduce the duty cycle on the fuel injector ?

I don't know of any direct way of controlling injector duty cycle, but indirectly that is what all the EFIEs attempt to do -- trick the computer into thinking it needs less fuel -- lower duty cycle.

About the closest thing I can come up with would be to use Wide Band O2 sensors, and a controller programmed to send the 14.7 signal at 15.5 or 16 AFR.

[jbalat]

delete dbl post pls

[jbalat]

Quote: Originally Posted by 2000extemeturbo

I don't know of any direct way of controlling injector duty cycle, but indirectly that is what all the EFIEs attempt to do

.. I may have to go that way soon for I have now discovered the best way to LOSE money !!!..

Ok. Ive just filled the tank and discovered I have gone from 12.4Ltr/100km (18.97mpg) to 13.5Ltrs/100km (17.42mpg) Just follow my install guide and guaranteed you can waste 9% MORE FUEL



In an attempt to salvage what little faith I have in this technology I have added an o2 spacer. Wish me luck...

[rtsurfer]

It is not the Tech (if done right)

You need to controll the computer now. When you add the hydrogen and oxygen the engine runs better, but the ECu does not understand that it always wants to see 14.7 AFR

What year car do you have? What engine size?

[jbalat]

RT... I guess I can come clean.. I dont have any idea what an S10 looks like.???.

Its a Mitsubishi Pajero/Shogun 1994 V6 3.0 Ltr Petrol (MPI) Engine..


P.S. To the moderator
Do you think you can delete one of my enginebay.jpg files from my last post ?

[rtsurfer]

[quote=jbalat;5795508]RT... I guess I can come clean.. I dont have any idea what an S10 looks like.???.

Its a Mitsubishi Pajero/Shogun 1994 V6 3.0 Ltr Petrol (MPI) Engine..


Ok this is easy, your car should be perfect for the EFIE you can build it here
http://www.alt-nrg.org/efie.html

He used a 50K pot but I found it was easier with 200k

Now can you verify your 1.4liter per minute? If you can get 2 of these units to 2.8 liters per minute then use a seperate battery (not connected to the car) to run the 2 units. Deep Cycle Marine battery.

Then charge it at night.

Dont try and run 2 boosters off the alternator. I can tell you that there will be a drain on the electrical system.

[Onimun]

Is there a good parts list to go by as to what needs to be bought in order for this to work? I would like to try this out. Seems easy enough. If there is not one already, it may be helpful for others trying to do this.

[rat]

Quote: Originally Posted by jbalat

.. I may have to go that way soon for I have now discovered the best way to LOSE money !!!..

Ok. Ive just filled the tank and discovered I have gone from 12.4Ltr/100km (18.97mpg) to 13.5Ltrs/100km (17.42mpg) Just follow my install guide and guaranteed you can waste 9% MORE FUEL

So this pretty much sums up what is going on here. The hydrogen isn't what is giving the gain, it is the tricking the computer to run the engine leaner...

[rtsurfer]

There several things to consider here


1) who knows what his results are compared to engine size ,
2) What he is using for electolyte, leaks, or vehicle condition

3) When you add Hydrogen and oxygen to the intake the computer sees the higher increase in oxygen. While the engine can benefit from the hydrogen, the computer will adjust to meet the demand for higher oxygen in the exhaust. There by adding more fuel to pick up to better get the 14.7afr ratio.

One way to help the computer is to know how much the O2 sensor readjusted the AFR by the voltage is sends to the computer.

You are not leaning out as you may think but rather correcting the the adjustment the o2 has already done.

4) There is an electrical and mechanical drain on the engine that is a fact. Because of the use of the alternator. You Can not get around this unless you disconnect the enter system from the vehicles electrical systems.

Make is more of a stand alone hybrid with its own battery source.

[jbalat]

I have a 4 wire heated O2 sensor probably not wideband because of the age.

How do I know if the zero efie will work with my sensor and which wire does what ?

Also... if you have a look at my photo of the engine bay just above the HHO intake there is a Air Flow and temp sensor/meter... Would it be easier to play with this rather than the O2 sensor ? If so how ?


Thanks guys.. Didnt mean to put a damper on HHO.. Still persisting...

[jbalat]

RT,
you never said how well your EFIE was working ?

Also how do you know whether you are running too lean ?

[rtsurfer]

My EFIE is running steady. no problems as of yet. Light stays off.

My adjustment is .190mv over that throws a light. No leaning problems yet.

I am setting up a new cell one that should double the production to about 3liter per minute. Taking my time. All using Lowes parts.

Still playing with it.

Your senor should work well with that EFIE.

To hook up the EFIE you need to find the wire which jumps around voltage form .1 to 1volts mostly in the .2 to .8 range it will not stay steady it jump up and down like crazy. that is your wire.

[rtsurfer]

If you ever get a chance find Bob Boyce cell on the web that Sucker can put out 50liter per minute. WOW

[jbalat]

RT Thanks for the update. I will try the EFIE in the next few days

My 2nd Tank of Gas with the O2 Extender has brought my fuel economy back to nominal again..

[rtsurfer]

If you use the EFIE you can not use the extenders. You may get ECU light. Becasue the extenders slows the response of the O2 sensor.

Did you buy the EFIE already?

[jbalat]

Just putting the unit together as per the link you gave me. I am missing a couple of parts so will have to wait until the weekend

What kind of saving are you getting at the moment.. ? Did you ever get both cells going again in your car ?

The Bob Boyce stuff sounds interesting.. Is it another Stanley Maher wild goose chase or have other people actually replicated his work ?

[rtsurfer]

No there are a few people out there that has done the bob boyce cell. He just spoke at a conference. There are several videos with his system working and an interview with him.

At the moment I see a 18-20% savings. I still seem to be having some issues with keeping the savings but on average that is where I am at.

I did have a recorded 25mpg city but since then the computer has
counter-acted my system.

But as a rule I need to see 1liter of hydrogen to 1liter of engine size. Since I have a 4.3 liter I need to see 4liter of hydrogen.

What else I have done is routed some exhaust using a transmission line back into the intake just after the MAF sensor. This helps heat the incoming air. And also helps slow the burn of Hyrdogen.

I am still working with it though.

Both cells are working and I drove 1 hr south of me (40miles) and surfed for 2.5hrs then drove back. No heating issues at all and the deep cycle battery held up fine for the 2hrs.

I am at a steady 1.6liters @ 18amps each hot.

The new cell should double the production at the same amps.
But still putting it together.

[jbalat]

Keep it going RT. Let us know when you get the new cell going and post some pics.. Is it the Bob Boyce one ?

Is the computer still counteracting the hho even with the EFIE ?

I found this and this in the Jaycar catalog. Sounds exactly like what we need to sort out the computer..

[rtsurfer]

No it is not the bob boyce cell I am working on. It is a modified smack booster. And yes I will show pics and video when done. Just taking my time.

[jbalat]

Quote:

What else I have done is routed some exhaust using a transmission line back into the intake just after the MAF sensor. This helps heat the incoming air. And also helps slow the burn of Hyrdogen.

If your MAF sensor measures temperature also (like mine does) you may want to channel the hot air into it. Hot air will make the MAF lean out the mixture.
Also are you supposed to change your timing so the ignition is after TDC since the hyrdrogen does burn quicker ?

[jbalat]

Ok computer has adjusted for the O2 spacer.. Fuel economy has dropped back by 9% again to 13.8 Ltr/100km..Bugger.. Ive switched the unit off for now.

I was told that the transformer is in the mail.. This is the last item I need for the Efie.

Planning some long trips over the Christmas break so hopefully I get it done in time

Merry Christmas to all !!!

[rtsurfer]

Well I just spent the last 2 days rewiring for the new setup.

I am now using 8 gauge throughout the system

[jbalat]

Cool.. Has it made a difference.
I have only 3mm wire to the unit and wires heat up a little. The amp gauge shows more than 20 amps but the fuse will not blow ?

RT.. I really need some electrical help please. I am stuck. My TY-300P Transformer has a different position for terminal 1 and I dont know what to do.
This is the zero fossil design


And this is where I am stuck.. Maybe you can mark up the back of my board for me ?

[rtsurfer]

there should be a red dot where the pin one is. It should have came with a drawing on the transformer

Your images are not coming through

[rtsurfer]

I am wiring for the new setup right now. I do not see heat issues at all. since the heavy gauge wire.

[rtsurfer]

http://system.netsuite.com/core/medi...9 7f&_xt=.pdf

[jbalat]

My pic is here
http://gamenight.sitesled.com/pics/efie3small.jpg

Thanks thats the pdf I have with mine. My Pin 1 is under the black dot and transformer is wired up anticlockwise. So going by the pdf, Pins 1 and 6 go to the diode and to earth???

His transformer appears to be wired up clockwise and has a different circuit than mine since his pins 2 and 3 appear to be going to the diode and the earth ?

[rtsurfer]

BTW nice job!

[rtsurfer]

here is a little video of what I have been working on. I have just been so busy at work with end of year end of quarter and holiday all wrapped in a single month.

The water circulates just as fast as the bubbles come out. There is little gas stored in the cell. Only what is made. I tilted the box so the gas will flow to one side. Everything works great.
900ml @15amps cold.

This ran for 4hrs and no steam. It was made to have 2.2 volts per cell. The Battery use only. Once I connected it to the alternator I now see almost 3volts per cell. This creates heat. Heat creates steam

By the way after 4hrs the electrolyte was barely warm.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rskdLAKxpSU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rskdLAKxpSU

[rtsurfer]

well I just tested the unit again and at start up cold 17amps now and 1300ml

After a few minutes the ml drops. I think that when I sealed the bottom there is not enough water passing through to continue production high enough.

The best thing about this setup is I can take is apart very easily. I will open it up this weekend and take a new look into it.

Oh the bubbler in the video is just for testing. But worked out well because of how clear the container is

[jbalat]

Looking good RT.

I would really like to try something like this.

Looks like you have a hybrid Dry Cell and BB cell..

Can you show us what the cell looks like inside. .

Have you eliminated 1 of the 2 common plates connected by the S/S nuts from the Smack design ?

[rtsurfer]

I have had it running for 1.5hrs tonight running steady at 1.3liter 18amp very little steam So I want to try some new things. And I want 2liters per minute from each cell. Using a common bubble/reservoir

Using the 3m 5200 glue has been great but very messy. Once it dries on your hands it is hard to get off. I do not like the fact it is white. But I have no interaction with Sodium Hydroxide like I did with goop.

I want to open it back up but I will make a new cell first and just change it out. I will video that.

Plus I found a great new way to test cells before sealing them in a container.

I did not eliminate the extra plate. I added one more to the outside. so what I did was add another half cell plus one extra plate per side.

Yikes has a boaster the says 3liter per minute but frome everything I have tested with it says no. Smack design seems to work better.

I want to get down to 2v per cell. No more. So I need to play with it a while.

It is fun watching it run.

How did your drive go?

Quote: Originally Posted by jbalat

Looking good RT.

I would really like to try something like this.

Looks like you have a hybrid Dry Cell and BB cell..

Can you show us what the cell looks like inside. .

Have you eliminated 1 of the 2 common plates connected by the S/S nuts from the Smack design ?

[jbalat]

RT the drive to Sydney was very tiring but Sudney was great. Lots of things going on, great weather and lots to see.

I managed to achieve 21.7mpg without HHO on the open road. I wish I had the Efie going for the trip but without it I will leave the unit switched off.

I wont do any more development on the Cell until I can prove there is some kind of fuel saving with HHO

I plan on buying an EGT guage to monitor the gas temperature so that I can tune the Efie better and ensure I dont blow up my engine. I will be fitting the Efie in the next few days.. Thanks a lot for helping me finish it.

[rtsurfer]

I just spent the last 4hours sealing the edges of the plates. Using Marine 5200 fast cure. I used in the last cell with no problems

I hope to get to 3lpm and would love 4lpm but that is still out there for me.

SHould have it all working by Sunday. If all goes right.

[jbalat]

Keep it going dude, you're on a roll now... Dont forget pics..

I know you have probably read heaps of literature but this is quite good
click here

It talks about all the other things you need to do as well as efie to get the system working reliably..