HHO injection on 2002 Blazer Xtreme 4.3L Results

[jbalat]

Fair enough, I thought the kits would be as cheap as a couple of hundred dollars and you make your own cable to link up to the pc. Unfortunately nothing like that available in Australia..

I have almost all the bits to make my own cell including some 0.020" Ti plates, waiting on the check valves, and need to do all the plate preparation and assembly. Wish me luck!

Will post some pics and Video when I get it ready for testing.

2.2 Ltrs should be plenty... Any more and you could try turning off the fuel supply altogether and see if she idles on straight Gas

[jbalat]

Just a quick post to let you know that I got my cell together with 16 plates based on SMack Gen II sizes and design and 4" tube. The reason I only got 16 plates is because my washers were about 0.100" high whereas the smack uses 0.031" (and 7/32"H S/S nuts).

Anyway very little gas was produced.. Amperage kept decreasing initially (I couldnt achieve more than 2 amps) so I kept adding KOH, and more and more. Soon after some conditioning started and amperage started to increase as did the bubbles but overall quite disappointing for a first attempt.

I am a little worried about the resistivity of Ti 420 nohm.m as opposed to S/Steel 720 nohm.m ?

But I guess I won't know for sure until I reduce the gap down to at least 0.040" and do a full conditioning cycle so that small static bubbles stop forming on all the plate surfaces... I heard it is best to do this with low amps over a long period to get the best results ?

[rtsurfer]

If the booster is not to Smack specs it will not work the same.

I tried to think his was a littel off and i tried different things but when it came does to it he is right on the money. Including wrapping the units with shrink wrap

Even without shrink it produced 850ml 60sec without plate prep. His design it tried and true.

What did you add to the DISTILLED WATER please tell me Reobic 100% lye drain cleaner (sodium Hydroxide)

[rtsurfer]

also keep checking the temp of the electrodes you used, If you have one bad connection it will hinder the amps

[rtsurfer]

ok I just uploaded some quick vids of the first plates I took out of the blazer after 1000miles

THe other one is the new setup of plates that i installed.

http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=hhosurfer

[Yogi]

Quote: Originally Posted by rtsurfer

ok I just uploaded some quick vids of the first plates I took out of the blazer after 1000miles

THe other one is the new setup of plates that i installed.

http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=hhosurfer

Good vids!

Why use the clear shrink wrap around the plate assembly? Doesn't this reduce the surface area by covering the plates on each side?

Since you and others run as plug in hybrids, isolated from the cars electrical systems, has anyone tried running at 24 v. or anything above 12 v.?

[rtsurfer]

By wrapping the plates in shrink tubing you help eliminate the current leakage around the edge of the plates, THe current wants to flow around the outside of the plates rather then through them.

I used clear because they are PVC which is chemical resistant and I wanted to put it in a clear cell so I can see it working. But I did not used a clear cell right now, I will open it again in 1000miles to see how thing are

The design is based so that only 2.5volts to 3volts on average goes through the plates, anything more heat up the water causing steam, even 2.5 volts is high you should be around 1.8v to 2volts,

this design knocks down the 12volts to 3volts per cell (8in total) (or 4per side)

12volts divide by 4 = 3volts

so 24volts will not work with this type of set up,

there are others out there that use high voltage 120+ to make hydrogen but they also have alot more plates, one of which has 101plates.

the paltes alone for that is $500 without the electronics and box to put it in,

[lesterl]

you also have to consider that when running your alternator is putting out 14+ VDC so that would make your formula even higher

[rtsurfer]

Well I do not look at that since I am running a deep cycle battery not connected to the car, it only runs the boosters,

But you are right, then get it too fit in a 4" PVC pipe,

You could add one more cell per side but it will not fit in that pipe, SMACK is working on something new

[2000extemeturbo]

OK, I got my plates yesterday. My cell will have 6X6 inch plates, 5 cells with 6 neutrals in each. I am thinking I can build the cell and an integrated bubbler to fit in the same space as a standard car battery.

My question is, what do you guys think I should use to seperate the plates. I've read that standard tiewraps are a good thickness, but I don't know if they will stand the heat/chemical conditions in the cell.

[rtsurfer]

Nylon tie wraps are fine they will hold up

but you should check this out on how to keep that spacing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_4RLYWFR1E

follow what he did it is awesome idea

[lethlweapn]

http://sacramento.craigslist.org/pts/875257347.html



Using a setup like this, my boss is getting almost 30MPG City in his Jeep, about 60% better than without it. This system uses Potassium Hydroxide, runs around 20 Amps, and best maintained at 160 degrees, and does not use pulse modulation.

[circa]

When you find a simple kit, let me know. I'm already getting 30-32 mpg hwy out of my 4.3l 5spd , and wouldnt mind rubbing 40mpg into any honda owner's four cylinder face.

[lethlweapn]

Quote: Originally Posted by circa

When you find a simple kit, let me know. I'm already getting 30-32 mpg hwy out of my 4.3l 5spd , and wouldnt mind rubbing 40mpg into any honda owner's four cylinder face.

The kit on Ebay

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/XTREM...QQcmdZViewItem

Quote:

THE UNITS YOU ARE VIEWING ARE ENCASED IN A HIGH TEMP CPVC THERMOPLASTIC THAT HAS A MELT POINT WHICH IS 90 DEGREES HIGHER THAN ORDINARY PVC. OUR HHO GENERATORS ARE FULLY HYDRATED, ALL REACTIONS ARE FULLY SUBMERSED IN SOLUTION. AS GAS IS PRODUCED, WATER CIRCULATES FROM UNITS TO MIXER AND BACK DOWN, KEEPING UNITS COOL DURING OPERATION. WE HAVE DEVELOPED A DESIGN THAT IS COMPRISED OF ONLY 9 HIGH GRADE STAINLESS STEEL DISKS PER UNIT, WHICH ARE LAYERED VERTICALLY, WITH VARYING DIAMETERS. WITH A PRESICE CONFIGURATION OF POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE PLATES, WE CAN ACHIEVE HIGHER GAS PRODUCTION WITH LESS POWER STRAIN ON THE ELECTRICAL SYSTEM. WE HAVE A PROCESS TO SPECIFICALLY CONDITION OUR PLATES TO YIELD THE HIGHEST LEVEL OF GAS PRODUCTION POSSIBLE. WITH OUR DESIGN MODIFICATIONS, WE WERE ABLE TO CONTROL THE ELECTROLYSIS REACTION AND CREATE MORE GAS WHILE KEEPING THE UNITS IN A LOWER TEMPERATURE RANGE. OUR UNITS HAS BEEN TESTED ON NUMEROUS 2 HOUR RUNS, AND HAS PEAKED IN TEMPERATURE AT BELOW 165 DEGREES. WITH THIS DESIGN, PULSE MODULATION IS UNNECESSARY, PUSHING 30 AMPS TO ACHIEVE RESULTS IS NOT NEEDED. WE CAME TO THESE RESULTS FROM 100'S OF HOURS OF RESEARCH, AND TRIALS, ALONG WITH A BACKGROUND IN ELECTRICAL ENGINEERING.

I have a Ford Aspire that gets 30 MPG now, I'm waiting to get my kit installed to see the mileage that I'll have then.

[comp]

is this spam

[lethlweapn]

Quote: Originally Posted by comp

is this spam

If my posts were a problem, I'll gladly remove them, I was just trying to share the information with other posters.

If the starter of the thread asks me to remove them I would have no problem with it.

I'm just another poster with thoughts about this technology.

[rtsurfer]

I started this thread for my own piece of mind does it or does it not work, All my boosters are home built some others reading this thread may not want to build their own boosters so it is fine.

Myself I am not trying to sell anything, just wanted to get my own thoughts on this but all are welcome to join in and give thoughts.

[jbalat]

RT on your video you mention you condition the plates at 10 amps.

During my earlier research on work done by Ravi into replrocing the Stanley Mayer cell he talked about using much lower amps and no electrolyte. He said the process can take about 1 month but produces a white non conductive coat over his tubes..
http://www.panaceauniversity.org/Ravi%20Cell.pdf

I assume you are not getting this coating on your plates ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7E-QJf-xRQ

[rtsurfer]

Yes 10amps for cleaning the cell

Stan Meyers used very high voltage and frequency based cell or resonance to split h20 from each other. No one has been able to replicate his setup perfectly,

My cell is brute force and uses current instead of high voltage.

As you can see the only coating I get is an yellowish tint on the plates

[jbalat]

Finally uploaded my first HHO video..
Be easy on me, its rather long and boring

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=ynL4SUXWJEk

[jbalat]

RT, I found some of my nuts had come loose after some time, also the water did heat up..

Is it worth trying to add the other 4 plates to try and reduce the temperature build up...

[2000extemeturbo]

The only problem I see with your design, and the published smack design, is the center electrode. it should be the same height and width as your neutrals, and outside electrode.

Unless I am looking at it wrong, it looks like your center electrode is maybe 1 square inch.

If I am wrong, Please let me know, because that is the biggest reason why I've stayed away from the Smack.

[jbalat]

No there actually is no centre electrode, the small piece of plate is just a spacer to make up for the electrode at the top..

I will remove one of the nuts in the centre so that the electrode is touching one of the plates.

This will give me enough room to add another 4 plates to the 4" nylon rod and hopefully reduce the heating thats going on.

Theoretically the adjacent centre plate will have the same potential even though seperated by one nut. ie. They are both Negative, and both outside plates are positive which effectively means you are running 2 cells. All intermediates are neutral but voltage drops across them through the electrolyte. Will post new video when its done..

RT please let me know if I am wasting my time and just stick to the 16 plate design.

[rtsurfer]

You are on the right track but you are dealing with other issues it looks like

First check all your spacings the smack calls for 1.6mm nylon washers and the nuts are 7/32,

If this is not right you will not get even flow of hydrogen across all plates which is what i see in the video.

So try this make the positive and negative electrodes spaced between both the nuts to give better contact, bad contacts equal heat,

You can remove one set of nuts in the middle also remove the second set of nuts on the end. You can try Stainless Steel nuts with nylon inserts that shold keep your plates tight.

Yes try add another set of plates to each side see what happens should work great

Electrolyte is another problem with the size of your plates compared to the size of the cell i would make the unit start 14amps cold, this way it will last longer with little heat, if you are starting at 16-18amps you will be over 20amps in a short time.

Also the current wants to work around the plates and not throught them this loss creates heat, so I would try adding the shrink tubing around all the plates to force the current through the plates.

Also although the are 2 positive and 2 negative plates does not indicate 2 cells it therory there is 4 cells per side each 2 sets of plates close, the neutral plates act as a cell even though they are not connected

2000extemeturbo vbmenu_register("postmenu_5660918", true); please look at smacks pdf again all the plates are the same size. negative neutrals and positives,

[jbalat]

Thanks for your help RT.. It took me all night to reconfigure the cell but its done now and running a bit cooler.

I added the extra 4 plates by making room removing one of the centre nuts. I also increased the plate spacing from 1mm to around 1.5mm..

I still only get 95% of my Hydrogen production in the middle 2 cells as per the original video.

I'm hoping this will get better when I get beyond 10 amps although I am using a full cap of KOH grains (Tap water and Generic brand 98% KOH) to get anywhere near 10 amps at the moment.

A possible fix for this is to tie up all cells in parallel. ie. connect all negative plates together and all positive plates together somehow ?

This anomaly could be related to the lower resistivity of the Ti compared to that of the S/S nuts..but now I am getting too technical ???

[rtsurfer]

Well lets see some pics,

Are you using http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...CRY&lpage=none this 100% sodium hydroxide

Also I added 3 teaspoons of sodium hydroxide to 1 gallon of distilled water it made the amps 16 almost perfect.

If you place the plates in the bath you can measure the volts between each plate, you are only measuring the plates that are close to each other. you should see 2 volts

Also what is the space for the nuts this is also important.

I noticed the uneven production in the video and I had something similar it was all spacing once i fixed it all was well,

[jbalat]

Lester or RT you may be able to help here... I replaced my standard 5/16 nuts with Jam nuts as per the spec but still no go. I measured voltages and they are all over the place. Please help

[rtsurfer]

OK from the pic it looks like a slight increase in the middle.

But what amps are you running?

It is possible the voltage and current could be leaking around the edges of the plates

So left try something get a 1 or 2litler coke bottle and cut the ends off each side,

Then using a heat gun not a torch, HEAT GUN slowly heat the plastic bottle around the plates like you would shrink tubing

Dont mock it it works this may help keep you voltage and current from leaking enough to even out production a little. Be careful not to melt the bottle.

I will be here all day Saturday.

But over all i like those plates where did you get them?

[rtsurfer]

I am planing my next step will be working on it over the weekend

If all goes well maybe a pic

[rtsurfer]

wait are there 2 different types of nuts in there? if they are different then that may also be a problem

all nut spaces should be 7/32 including the middle

[jbalat]

RT, I am using a standard nut in the middle just to visually allow for the seperation of the 2 sides of the cell. Smack shows 2 jam nuts in this area with the electrode inbetween however realistically the potential between the 2 inside plates is the same so I dont think width is an issue there..

I am also thinking there is too much leakage around the plates. I will try the coke bottle idea. Thanks again !!

[rtsurfer]

I know he has 2 nuts in the middle but that image seems to be wrong here is how he test between the plates
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaF95aO6R68

images does not show a larger gap between the middle plates

[rtsurfer]

Where did you get those plates?

[jbalat]

RT, I got the plates from work (Boeing) - left over material from an old project.

Unfortunately I tried the coke bottle idea which would have worked a treat except for the fact that my plates were too thin and the outer 2 bent and touched the adjacent plates.. So off it came.

I then tried just glad wrap (sandwich wrap) just for a minute or so but no change

I have a feeling my plates are too thin and with only 1/3rd of the resistivity of S/S I probably need 3 times the thickness of your plates to simulate S/S.
Can you tell me what thickness plates you are using ?

When testing I am aiming for around 10 amps at 13.8v. I use used up to 3 caps of my 98% KOH and could only reach 10amps and 15amps after an hour or so once the water had warmed up.

At this stage I will either start again with S/S plates or try to attach all the positive and negative plates together using a strap or rod and cutting off corners from the intermediate plates

[rtsurfer]

My plates size i believe is .028 I think you may want to get your amps up alittle to 14 see where that gets you.

Also a poisitive negative configuration will not work well (been there) yourresults will be worse gving each set 6-8volts which is way to much, Unless your goal is to boil the water.

You could try electrical tape just to see if it will work just put is on backwards this way you do not get glue on the plates itself

[jbalat]

Cool... I think there may be voltage issues due to dissimilar metals. I will try isolating the outside nut to see what happens. If this works I can order Ti Nuts

[jbalat]

Once I isolated the outside nut with a nylon washer the production dropped and amps dropped down to almost zero...

Ti nuts are around $14 each so I guess thats out..

I'm officially stuck. Help!

Yep I have inadvertantly set up a galvanic cell. Apparently the S/S nuts (or at least the outer one) is acting as a sacrificial cathode and is slowly being corroded away.

I even tried removing all s/s nuts and used +ve plate with 8 neutrals and -ve plate all seperated with nylon washers but the production is initially average and amps drop off to zero again after a minute or so.

[jbalat]

RT if you are on.. I just bought some SS304 plates for a smack GenII. Drilling now..
Do you know if surfaces need roughing up like the wall plate GenI design ?

[rtsurfer]

yes use cross hatch on the plates, do plate prep all the same

[Yodamaker]

Hello everyone!

I have been reading all the links of this forum and have a few points I would like to interject.

I have been working on my own unit for quite some time and have developed a unit that produces nearly 2 liters of HHO every minute under vacuum. Measured with a displacement device. I have a unit installed on my 89 ford probe with a 4cyl engine ( went from 30mpg to 50mpg) and now in my buddy's 2005 GMC Canyon pickup with the vortec 2.8 4cyl engine.

Freezing problem - we use a mixture of wood alcohol to keep the unit from freezing with great success. The mixture is simple. A mixture of 50/50 will protect the cell from freezing all the way down to 28 degrees bolow 0 f. In the midwest U.S.A. we dont usually see temperature that low so we use 25/75 alcohol/water and it seems to just fine all the way down to about 5 degrees. We reduce the electrolyte accordingly. and all seems to work great.

Computer/02 sensor issues - we have had problems getting the newer computers to accept the fuel at the current production levels. we are using a map sensor modifier with city/hwy adjustments on it and it seems to work great but in order to take full advantage of all the gas we are putting into the engine we ill need to adjust the timeing. (ping knocking). We currently only have the extender on the O2 sensor before the cat. I have been toying with the idea of adding one onto the O2 sensor after the cat as well.

My question is, does anyone have an idea of how we can adjust the timing settings in the computer? can a shop do this? Most of the shops I have talked to have suggested that we get an ECM that allows that manual adjustment but those modules cost over $1000.00 is there any other solutions you guys know of?

This fuel cell draws around 20 amps and produces 1.5 liters without vacuum from the engine (2 liters with vacuum) every minute using only 3 tsp of baking soda per gallon of distilled water. there is no PWM yet that I have found that helps with the production, but it does help limit the production of HHO gas and reduces the electrical draw from the system. It also uses 304 stainless steel 16ga disks with a total of 530 sq. inches of active production surface area in a compact filter sealed container.
The bubbler is made from clear CPVC and has proven to be able to completely prevent moisture from entering the engine. The HHO gas is seperated from the water and filtered before entering the line going to the intake. Check valves are used to prevent any possible flashback and installed just before entering the intake.

If you have any ideas about making adjustments to the computer settings, please let me know.

Yodamaker

[Yodamaker]

Quote: Originally Posted by jbalat

RT if you are on.. I just bought some SS304 plates for a smack GenII. Drilling now..
Do you know if surfaces need roughing up like the wall plate GenI design ?

It is best to sand blast the surface of the plates. that will give you the maximum surface area available from the plate.

[Yogi]

@ YodaMaker:
PCMforLess.com or Wait4MePerformance.com can adjust the timing to whatever you want. Cost for W4Me is $75 on your PCM or they will sell you a programmed PCM for $159 outright.

[Yodamaker]

Thanks for that one I will be checking into that ASAP.

[A CLEANMACHINE]

first of all to you who are skeptical or fascinated by all of this learn some more from a great group of people at http://www.fuel-saver.org. checkout the sensors and handler section and go to tuninig for hho.also for the advanced minded look at the h2 only section,this is a cell configuration that separates the h-o with lower production rates and less heat-power issues.

[jbalat]

Finally got my new cell working.. Its a slightly oversised Gen II. Ive been keeping it under 10 amps for conditioning but output is low around 800cc/min. My main issue at the moment is leakage around all the fittings and lid.
I will post another youtube video soon.. Igniting the Hydrogen is great fun and it finally convinced a friend that you can burn water!!

[rtsurfer]

I found that marine goop works the best for all your fittings.

For the lid I screwed the cap down until it was flush with the outside of the container. Then ther is a 1/8 gap between the lid and contain (grove) fill that grove with goop and let it dry over night.

If done right it will not leak.

Quote: Originally Posted by jbalat

Finally got my new cell working.. Its a slightly oversised Gen II. Ive been keeping it under 10 amps for conditioning but output is low around 800cc/min. My main issue at the moment is leakage around all the fittings and lid.
I will post another youtube video soon.. Igniting the Hydrogen is great fun and it finally convinced a friend that you can burn water!!

[jbalat]

rt, I am also getting some heat build up if I leave it for a couple of hours. I was thinking of using an oversize bubbler as a resevoir so that it can also be used to recirculate the elecrolyte...

[2000extemeturbo]

Quote: Originally Posted by rtsurfer

Baking soda for your bath will destroy your plates. I found out first hand. And have since change to reobic drain cleaner http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...CRY&lpage=none my mix is 1tablespoon per gallon of Zepherhills Distilled Water

any other ideas? They don't sell it in Arkansas (too many meth labs).

[rtsurfer]

I know some guys get it online from soap making websites. Truevalue has it, also try a plumbing store, We have a few in town here.

Since we are in FL we also have alot of labs

[jbalat]

Just wondering if anyone has tried any sea water ?

P.S. I have a tip for anyone trying to drill a hole in an Acrylic canister.. Dont use methylated spirits to clean it.. For some reason it caused some pretty ugly cracks.