HHO injection on 2002 Blazer Xtreme 4.3L Results

[BlueDime]

Hmm.... I'll have to keep an eye out for an EGT or CHT then. I think I'm going to see if it works before I go spending money on sensors. I want to know what is happening in the engine so I will probably get one after I get something working. Where would be the best place/way to mount these probes?

I've got a caravan with ODB2 in it and I have the hardware to pick up data on my laptop. Does the ECU pick up any of this data?

[Yogi]

The PCM gets engine coolant temp (ECT) from the heads, but no cylinder head metal temps. Also no EGT instrumentation.

[lesterl]

Quote: Originally Posted by rtsurfer

Run Lean huh!!!

That is why I am introducing an alternate fuel source. I would not do this at all if I was not using another fuel source. It would be disastrous.

As far as MAF I am only draining off millivolts not allot. And that is right I did say millivolts. As the engine RPM increases the volts increase (by millivolts) Higher RPM then Higher voltage (or millivolts) I checked double checked and triple checked.

I used a resistor in the ATS (air temperature sensor) It tricks the computer into thinking it is 10degress hotter then it actually is. By doing that it retards the ignition.

After playing with the MAP sensor (which advances the timing) I found the 2.2K ohms is about the right target for the drain of millivolts to ground. Again this has to be done while the car has already been started. The drain off can not be there when the key is on and ready to start. You will throw a code.

I am going to set up a toggle switch that will shut everything I have done down and back to stock.

Again I am not tuning for torque and HP just better mileage.

As far as the O2 sensors I see an increase in millivolts as the RPM clime (on the white wire) so using 15k resistor I have done the same as the MAP sensor and drain only a tiny amount of MV to ground.


What I do enjoy most is when people tell you can not do that or it does not work that way. The numbers do not lie.

23.22mpg city driving on a 4.3l automatic

Both the MAF and the O2 sensors operate by generating an ac waveform back to the PCM, the waveform from the sensors is an FM type waveform, with FM you vary the frequency not the voltage as in AM, putting a load on these lines dont do exactly what you think they will be doing to the sensors. Just some info I picked up along the way.

As a sidenote I had gotten 25mpg from my 1998 Jimmy at one point in time. Got close many times after that, but it was all bone stock.

[overS10ded]

Quote: Originally Posted by BlueDime

Hmm.... I'll have to keep an eye out for an EGT or CHT then. I think I'm going to see if it works before I go spending money on sensors. I want to know what is happening in the engine so I will probably get one after I get something working. Where would be the best place/way to mount these probes?

I've got a caravan with ODB2 in it and I have the hardware to pick up data on my laptop. Does the ECU pick up any of this data?

The aircraft Cylinder Head Temp (CHT) gauge has two types of probes, a bayonet probe which fits into an aircraft cylinder provision incorporated into the head design of most general aircraft engines, and then there is a gasket style probe that is produce in different circumference such as 14mm and fits around the threads of the sparkplug, ours are 14mm, and becomes sandwiched between the plug and cylinder head after plug installation where it senses the cylinder head temperature.

As for the Exhaust Gas Temp (EGT), you need headers to begin with and you would drill a hole the size of the probe which is a bayonet style probe that is mounted onto a stainless hose clamp from the manufacturer. The probe is placed in the hole and the clamp sealed tightly around the header pipe. This needs to be within 3" of the exhast flange to get the most accurate EGT readings of the combustion process which is what we're interested in here I believe.

[AndVen]

Got some pics here. Do you have any of your setup?? I have a couple of threads in the s10 area.

[IMG]http://www.s10forum.com/forum/[/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.s10forum.com/forum/[/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.s10forum.com/forum/[/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.s10forum.com/forum/[/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.s10forum.com/forum/[/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.s10forum.com/forum/[/IMG]

[King_Ice_Flash2]

What's with the big coil of Cu tube?

[AndVen]

Quote: Originally Posted by King_Ice_Flash2

What's with the big coil of Cu tube?

I made it to heat up the hydroxy. Its sit on top of the exhaust manifold.

[BlueDime]

You might want to look into getting stainless casings so you can run more plates inside your boosters. It looks like your basing your design off of a joe cell without neutral plates. Most of the circular designs have tubes that are 2',3',4',5' in diameter usually with a stainless or abs casing. I know that PVC has problems building static charge which might be hindering your HHO production.
How tall is the PVC compared to the plates because the pic looks like you could double the length of the booster and get more surface area.
You might want to also try getting hose clamps for your fittings. You might be losing hydrogen through them. I only say that because the system may be water and air tight but is it hydrogen tight?

Look into some of the designs for joe cells just ignore the orgone energy bs.

Just some ideas to try to help. I would try them myself but I'm still waiting for the stainless to ship.

[2000extemeturbo]

I think HHO could create a huge improvement in fuel economy. The only snag I see is that the computer is not willing to adjust for the HHO because of the O2 sensors. Its like apples and oranges.

Think of this analogy, I have a bunch of oranges and a orange juicer -- everything works great. Then my wife comes home with a bag of apples and wants to make applesause with my juicer!! It might work with some modifications!



I think we could make this work, but it will require completely retuning the computer. We might be able to trick the computer a little, but I don't think it is the best way.
This is what I think would be required: get a wide band O2 and controller, this way we can command a specific AFR without the computer forceing it back to 14.7.
Now, when the HHO generator is on, we can command 20:1 AFR and see a huge improvement in fuel economy. we must however monitor KR and EGT to make sure we do not run too lean.

[rat]

Quote: Originally Posted by 2000extemeturbo

I think HHO could create a huge improvement in fuel economy. The only snag I see is that the computer is not willing to adjust for the HHO because of the O2 sensors. Its like apples and oranges.

Think of this analogy, I have a bunch of oranges and a orange juicer -- everything works great. Then my wife comes home with a bag of apples and wants to make applesause with my juicer!! It might work with some modifications!



I think we could make this work, but it will require completely retuning the computer. We might be able to trick the computer a little, but I don't think it is the best way.
This is what I think would be required: get a wide band O2 and controller, this way we can command a specific AFR without the computer forceing it back to 14.7.
Now, when the HHO generator is on, we can command 20:1 AFR and see a huge improvement in fuel economy. we must however monitor KR and EGT to make sure we do not run too lean.

20:1 is WAY to lean. It will buck and not drive well at 17:1.

If you are using 1 hp from your alternator you are probably only making .3-.4hp with the hydrogen if you are lucky.

[BlueDime]

Quote: Originally Posted by rat

If you are using 1 hp from your alternator you are probably only making .3-.4hp with the hydrogen if you are lucky.

That’s the part that we have been trying to figure out. Its clear that there are gains in using HHO boosters so something else is happening that we don't really understand. I've read most of the theories and so far the only one that seems to make sense is that hydrogen is reacting to something to create a catalyst. Something tells me that the use of this system creates some kind of bad emission which would explain why car manufactures haven't tried this yet.

[rat]

Quote: Originally Posted by BlueDime

That’s the part that we have been trying to figure out. Its clear that there are gains in using HHO boosters so something else is happening that we don't really understand. I've read most of the theories and so far the only one that seems to make sense is that hydrogen is reacting to something to create a catalyst. Something tells me that the use of this system creates some kind of bad emission which would explain why car manufactures haven't tried this yet.

There is hydrogen in gas, so i don't really buy that either. My guess is that by using the anti foulers to move the o2 sensors out the fuel economy goes up.

[BlueDime]

Quote: Originally Posted by rat

There is hydrogen in gas, so i don't really buy that either. My guess is that by using the anti foulers to move the o2 sensors out the fuel economy goes up.

I thought someone already ran without adjusting the O2 sensor and they still got some improvement. I see what you are saying about the hydrogen already in gas but its locked up in the gasoline particles. By injecting HHO in you get free unbonded hydrogen. A few chemists I've talked to think that hydrogen maybe reacting with nitrogen to form some kind of catalyst. At least it’s a better theory than orgon energy

[2000extemeturbo]

Quote: Originally Posted by rat

20:1 is WAY to lean. It will buck and not drive well at 17:1.

yes, 20:1 is way too lean for hydrocarbon based fuel. But it MAY not be for a hydrocarbon(gasoline)/hydrogen hybrid.
We all know that 14.7 is ideal for gasoline, but no one seems to know enough about HHO to even have a good guess. I just threw out 20:1 as a point of conversation, not a known good value. If we cannot force our vehicles to run lean on gasoline and make up the rest with HHO, we will see very little improvement in fuel economy.

[s10-den]

GUYS, look over this stuff, here it what you might need,a couple of the items anyway.....




http://stores.homestead.com/hydrogen...UEL+MONITORING
I have been using a 16 plate system for a little bit now...

[2000extemeturbo]

Quote: Originally Posted by s10-den

I have been using a 16 plate system for a little bit now...

what are your results so far?

[s10-den]

Real time?....I'm getting in town about 2-3 mpg more.I havnt been on the highway yet.I think a smaller system would work as well.

[AndVen]

Here's some pics of my new setup. Haven't tested it yet and not fully hooked up yet. I only want to draw about 20 amps with this. We shall see!

[IMG]http://www.s10forum.com/forum/[/IMG]

[lesterl]

Quote: Originally Posted by AndVen

Here's some pics of my new setup. Haven't tested it yet and not fully hooked up yet. I only want to draw about 20 amps with this. We shall see!

[IMG]http://www.s10forum.com/forum/[/IMG]

Kewl, whats the rest look like (where do you feed it into the intake, controls, etc. also what kind of truck/engine, and let us know what kind of results you get.)

[s10-den]

sum-beech!!thats almost too much...lol

[onecrazynoma]

instead of using gasoline to power the motor to power the alt to power the hho. why not use thermoelectric generators? if you put a thermoelectric cooler/heater or peltier device on the exhaust it will use the temperature difference and create a current much like a battery. now if you setup an array of them well. I saw one somewhere a trucker converted his exhaust stacks to have a large array of TEC's and he was able to do away with his alternator.

check it out. http://www.thermo1.com/wasteheatH.htm.

there kinda pricey though. but with gas the way its going it may be a viable alt.

[2000extemeturbo]

Quote: Originally Posted by onecrazynoma

instead of using gasoline to power the motor to power the alt to power the hho. why not use thermoelectric generators? if you put a thermoelectric cooler/heater or peltier device on the exhaust it will use the temperature difference and create a current much like a battery. now if you setup an array of them well. I saw one somewhere a trucker converted his exhaust stacks to have a large array of TEC's and he was able to do away with his alternator.

check it out. http://www.thermo1.com/wasteheatH.htm.

there kinda pricey though. but with gas the way its going it may be a viable alt.

very interesting.........

[2000extemeturbo]

funny, I watched the video where they were talking about converting the lawnmower engine to straight HHO. The guy almost sounded like he knew what he was talking about.... at least up till he started trying to explain engine timing

[jakefiddlesticks]

Quote: Originally Posted by 2000extemeturbo

funny, I watched the video where they were talking about converting the lawnmower engine to straight HHO. The guy almost sounded like he knew what he was talking about.... at least up till he started trying to explain engine timing

Hydrogen is 3 times more explosive than gas. it ignites and burns super fast. to run an engine exclusively on hydrogen you would need to retard the timing and it also requires 1 liter per minute per horsepower. So a 5 horsepower engine would require 5 liters a minute at full throttle. think about that and why the government or automakers haven't figured it out yet.

for a 4.3 with 190 Horsepower would require 190 liters of hydrogen per minute or 3.17 liters a second at a running rpm. hydrogen isn't that hard to make it's just the part of compressing it and it being so dangerous/explosive.

the new honda car has a hydrogen fuel cell that produces electricity for the vehicle. The fuel cell combines hydrogen, which is stored in a fuel tank onboard the vehicle, with oxygen from the air to make electricity. The electricity then powers the electric motor, which in turn drives the front wheels. Water vapor and heat are the only byproducts.

[onecrazynoma]

i wonder how much a liter of hydrogen will be when everyone has a fuel cell car.

[rtsurfer]

Huh

My best recording was 25.25mpg city

I have spent the past few weeks redoing and designing a better system.

Just finish last night.

I am now running a second battery (1000amps) which is not connected to the car. It is only there to run the boosters. So no drain on the aternator when the system is running. I will just plug the batery in at night. I may go to a solar battery charge during the day.

I am running 2 systems each cold start at 13-14amps and after 1/2hr running only got to 16-18amps. And I just tested the battery and still have 12.5v

I do not know how long the system can run on its own but I can guess a few hours without recharge.

I did not record hydrogen output yet but best guess is 2liter per minute when running.

I am also running an EFIE of the same battery. So there is no drain on atlernator there either.

So over all I will not have results until the end of the week. But this is an over all improvement in the last system.

I will post overall design changes I have made at end of week.

[rtsurfer]

After the 40min drive home I still had 32amps(16amps each cell) when I got home I tested the battery and it had 11.5v still.

I tested the HHO output and got 1.7liters (850ml each). I still have room for alittle more amps up to 20amps each but as of right now they are only at 13ish cold and 15-16after the 40minute drive.

Still over all everything worked perfect. No drain on the alternator or electrical on the car.

And Best of all not one SES light.

[thepunkerguy]

I read this entire thread and found it to be very interesting. I sure hope that sometime you can get your system to a point where you feel it's stable and worth distributing. A full write up of EXACTLY what needs to be done for these 4.3L S10s/Blazers would be awesome. You could even create the write up, gather the goods, and sell it as a S10 kit and make some money back on all your hard work. I would be willing to pay you for it if you could put together a kit / guide that steadily produced the same results you have achieved. Also, you should go driving and get some Highway MPG results!
- Mike

[rtsurfer]

punker

I am not selling anything. I dont want the hassels and further to not want to piss off the wrong people.

There are alot of scammers out there. If the research is done right rather then just by a system off the shelf then you could not go wrong.

My system has evolved over the last several months through trial and error.

It is sound but I always want to make it better.

I will have a complete write up in a pdf format explaining step by step what I have done. Most of it is here but the last month progress is not.

But again I will put together in a pdf format. images and all.

It will take some time. But it will be for the 4.3l auto only.

Stay tunned and Keep reading.

[BlueDime]

I'm not sure how many plates you are running but if you are only using the battery for voltage you want to set up the plates so the each one gets about 1.5-2v each, any extra voltage is wasted as heat. So with a 12v battery you are going to need 7 plates to make 6 cells. If you are running more plates than that you might want to look into putting in a coil to up the voltage. For example if you are running 21 plates composed of 20 cells you need a voltage of about 30-40v.

[rtsurfer]

No I have 16 plates each booster.

Smack Style. +NNNNNN--NNNNNN+

The plates are surrounded by heat shrink tubing 4" I do not have any heat problem and the current is so stable I have a hard time believing it myself.

I will post more soon

[chevys-a-gogo]

HHO Kits are becoming more and more common on the Internet. I have even seen some that come with a warranty and they will guarantee you get 10 mpg more or your money back. Crazy smart stuff. I know that there is know way I want to keep messing with building my own system. There's a lot of stainless steel, acrylic, ABS, and yes PVC out there used ot make the generators. PVC is a bit stupid because you can fry it.

Try this is google...
10 mpg hho guarantee

I think the ones I saw are stainless generators.

[jakefiddlesticks]

what kind of battery did you get, where, and how much? i'm ready to buy one, here's your charging solution right here. 2002 4.3










the belt size is 100.5 inches. they use 1005 as the part #. any part store has them for $25.

[rtsurfer]

Ok I bought it at WalMart (Don't Laugh) This is only for the HHO system.

It was 1000amp for $75. Not a deep Cycle they also charged a $9.00 core.

Oh well

I did not want to put any extra drain on the engine itself so no extra alternator.

There are a ton of kits out there even ones that have a stainless steel container. There are more problems wil current drain and heat from using it.

I just ran another test and I am still at 1.7liters per minute. about 17amps each.

[eatinpavement]

very nice work with great gains. i agree the numbers dont lie. i have been considering trying something like this since my daily drive to work is roughly 100 miles round trip. i would really be interested to see some highway numbers.

[rtsurfer]

At the moment I have no way of getting hwy miles. These are all city miles. I would have to add 20miles to my trip to get hwy miles.

I plan on getting a true scan gauge in the future so that will help big time for tunning it better

[lesterl]

Quote: Originally Posted by BlueDime

I'm not sure how many plates you are running but if you are only using the battery for voltage you want to set up the plates so the each one gets about 1.5-2v each, any extra voltage is wasted as heat. So with a 12v battery you are going to need 7 plates to make 6 cells. If you are running more plates than that you might want to look into putting in a coil to up the voltage. For example if you are running 21 plates composed of 20 cells you need a voltage of about 30-40v.

A coil (or inductor) will not step up the voltage alone you would need some kind of voltage chopper circuit to resonate the coil and produce an AC waveform to be rectified into DC, but alas I digress, I dont know much about these generators yet, but will look into it.

[Duggy]

I was wondering has anybody removed the heads and inspected the valves for possible over burning?
or any other internal components for excessive wear or damage due to the HHO injection?

[jakefiddlesticks]

1.7 LPM and 17 amps
that's awesome.

[BlueDime]

Quote: Originally Posted by Duggy

I was wondering has anybody removed the heads and inspected the valves for possible over burning?
or any other internal components for excessive wear or damage due to the HHO injection?

Well if you tune the system using a cylinder head temp sensor you should be able to prevent problems with the valves. I did read something that said that the valves use unburnt fuel as cooling so it might be a good idea to run some kind of water or methanol injection to replace the lost cooling from less fuel. Water injection helps clean the internals of the engine so it is a good idea to have anyway.

[The Blown Blazer]

I've read alot and watched alot of HHO videos throughout the internet. Nearly all have said that using a bubbler to remove the water vapor from the mixture affected the MPGs significantly.

Having the water vapor in the system would also potentially work as a "valve cooling" tool as the mixture combusts.

Have you ever thought about a cold fog generator? Look em up.

[rtsurfer]

Quote: Originally Posted by The Blown Blazer

I've read alot and watched alot of HHO videos throughout the internet. Nearly all have said that using a bubbler to remove the water vapor from the mixture affected the MPGs significantly.

Having the water vapor in the system would also potentially work as a "valve cooling" tool as the mixture combusts.

Have you ever thought about a cold fog generator? Look em up.

If the sustem is built right you should see very little if any steam or water in the lines.

A good system would make hydrogen Oxygen gas and not heat up the water to make steam. So far I am doing very well on this new system. I just repalced the relay with a ford bronco starter solenoid. Which will handle the current draw.

To do this you need between 2-2.5volts per cell and little to no current leak around the outside of the plates. Anything more the 2.5 creates heat and runnaway current.

I put 2 pcs of 4" pvc heat shrink tubing around the cell to stop current leakage. after an hour of running the current only went up 5amps for 2 cells (2.5each)

I am at 16amps cold per cell. I am running 2 cells. That would be 32amps cold and about 1.7literspm cold. But I did not get a full test in. I went back and solder all my connections.

I may have miss something but I should have gas milage reading in the morning. My last milage was 205miles for half tank (city driving 36miles per day)

I will know more in the morning

[rtsurfer]

Ok here is what I have. This is the new set up. I replaced the relays to the NAPA auto Part ST-95 relay. it is rated at 85amps. No burn out problems there. I only run 32-36amps hot after an hour of running. I also pulled out the fueses. They are a pain to deal with. I replaced them with a 45amp breaker. I also went back and soldered every connection I could find. All the wires now stay cool to the touch. No heating problem anywhere.


Also here is a picture of the water after 2 weeks straight running time at 17-18amps hot. No baking soda. I now used sodium Hydroxide. No brown liquid and not over heat problems. I used 2 tablespoons to 1 gallon of distilled water. The unites pull 14.5-15amps cold. and only raise 2-4 amps when hot after an hour.

I am still sitting at 25.15mpg

But No Check engine lights for 2weeks now.

[BudRacing]

I would seriously consider a thermoelectric charging system for your auxiliary battery. You'll kill that thing soon enough since it's not a deep cycle battery.

[rtsurfer]

Solar charging it. During the day

[The Blown Blazer]

You should make a lever thats connected to a small wagon wheel thats connected to an alternator that you can lower down onto the ground and into "current producing mode" (aka let the wheel onto the ground) during braking.... to recharge your battery. Or get a 2nd alternator thats directly wired up to the secondary battery, then only engage it to activate the charging cycle during braking..

Ok too complicated.

Where are you getting your electrolyte?

[rtsurfer]

here just mix 2 teaspoons in 1 gallon of distilled water almost comes out perfect 14.5-15amps

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...450-331-HD-CRY

easy to get at any lowes 100% lye

I drained it as you can see and just put it right back in. This is going to go on 4weeks now.

No baking soda. It destroyed my last 2 cell. But this everything runs perfect.

[herseydestin]

their are other methods..the one i'm workn with shows 6 cells inline...increasing the gas distributed...haven't got it in yet.

[rtsurfer]

Need to see this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8EEX...eature=related

[lesterl]

He didnt reset his ECM before he ran his test run and let it "relearn" the truck did have 170k on it.