1997 S-10 SS Vortec 4.3 Cranks, But No Start...

[Yogi]

Quote: Originally Posted by MikDee

Ok I pulled out my old 96' Sonoma Vortec V6 Dist. cap, and it has the coil wire, & plug wire, numbers marked right on it, looking at it in my hands, I'd say that Pic. #2 in the books instructions is Wrong!, Either the rotor has to move counterclockwise 3/4", or the Dist. base needs to move clockwise 3/4" from where it is, to physically line up under the #1 terminal!
That's the only way it's gonna fire right!

That pic is just to get an approximation of where the gear, the housing and the rotor should all line up - not TDC on #1. You can see the #6 tab on the housing in the pic at about 9:00 o'clock. See the first illustration on the second page of the manual. There the rotor lines up with the #6 tab on the housing (TDC).

[MikDee]

Quote: Originally Posted by Yogi

That pic is just to get an approximation of where the gear, the housing and the rotor should all line up - not TDC on #1. You can see the #6 tab on the housing in the pic at about 9:00 o'clock. See the first illustration on the second page of the manual. There the rotor lines up with the #6 tab on the housing (TDC).

Well then, if that Pic. is only an approximation, then the illustration on the 2nd page must be right then, showing the rotor has to line up with #6 on the housing. So, I am right then, when I say the Dist. Body itself, has to be moved counterclockwise till the rotor, and #6 mark line up, and that should put #1 terminal on the Dist. cap directly over the rotor.
That's the solution!

[Bill Wheats]

I understand what you are saying but you can't move the dizzy that much, if at all. Since they didn't pull the dizzy since it last ran right, then one of 2 things has happened (if the rotor is 40` off and they are on TDC);
The timing chain has slipped or the dizzy gears are wiped.
If it was mine, I'd hand crack the engine backwards and measure any slop before the rotor moves. Then I'd crank it back to TDC and pull the Dizzy, hoping that it is just the dizzy gears.
You can replace just the gear if every thing else is good.
But then your back to how it happenend???
If it was the backfire then it probably slipped the timing chain.

I was asking them to check for fuel injection first because it can be an added nightmare to have FI problems after replacing a timing chain????

So hey, if it's 40` off then something is broke!

[MikDee]

Who says you can't move the "Dizzy" BODY? Show me where it says that? Irregardless of where that rotor drops into the motor, you CAN move the Dizzy BODY! to line things up!, it may not face directly forward, and not be pretty, but you can rotate it any way you want, as long as the rotor lines up with the #6 inside, and it doesn't bump into anything around outside it physically. Maybe they moved the Dizzy body already, when messing with things??? The original poster needs to do this now, and try it!

[Bill Wheats]

I thought 96 through 99 they were locked????
I must be wrong???

[T_WEST99]

Is it getting fuel? If not The vin code Ws have a spider injection under the plastic intake may want to check in to that. And when i put my new motor in my 99 i had my timing just barely off and it would not fire.

[Yogi]

The dizzy housing cannot be moved. It bolts into one location and that's it! No adjustment! The only thing movable is the gear teeth, and only one particular tooth on the dizzy fits between 2 mating teeth on the camshaft. Anything else and the cam position sensor will throw a code.

[MikDee]

Quote: Originally Posted by Yogi

The dizzy housing cannot be moved. It bolts into one location and that's it! No adjustment! The only thing movable is the gear teeth, and only one particular tooth on the dizzy fits between 2 mating teeth on the camshaft. Anything else and the cam position sensor will throw a code.

What!? My 96' Sonoma is totaled, & gone, so I can't go down, & check it!? I just have the old Dist cap here, But I've never seen or heard of a small block Chevy V6, or V8, that you can't turn the Dist Body if it's held down by a 1/2 circle clamp!? you just loosen the bolt, & turn it, As it shows in the middle picture of the 2nd page of that online manual!? Or are you gonna tell me now, that the clamp is now a solid part of the Dist shaft housing!? Tell me it isn't true then my old school ways, are goin down the tubes! If so, then the rotor is in the wrong place in the O.P.'s Pic?,,,, and if the Dizzy hasn't been taken out, then,,, UHOH!!!,,, maybe serious work needed Or, if he gets lucky, the pin thru the Dizzy shaft sheared, not so bad!

P.S. If all was well, all he'd hafta do, is pick up the Dizzy, set the rotor to where it belongs, then drop the Dizzy back into it's "particular spot!" and bolt it down, Wallah, Done!

[MikeInCtown]

Most small blocks didn't have plastic manifolds either. I do believe it's been said before by there is a tab on the dist housing that fits into a slot in the manifold.

[lesterl]

Dont know if it has been asked have we tried turning the rotor by hand back and forth to see if there is any slop on that end?

[Bill Wheats]

Quote: Originally Posted by MikDee

... If so, then the rotor is in the wrong place in the O.P.'s Pic?,,,, and if the Dizzy hasn't been taken out, then,,, UHOH!!!,,, maybe serious work needed Or, if he gets lucky, the pin thru the Dizzy shaft sheared, not so bad!

P.S. If all was well, all he'd hafta do, is pick up the Dizzy, set the rotor to where it belongs, then drop the Dizzy back into it's "particular spot!" and bolt it down, Wallah, Done!

Ya well, we use to just time them by ear after the chain jumped a tooth if it wasn't worth replacing everything. Many of those engines ran for a long time after.
If he's lucky, they broke the gears in the dizzy when they were replacing the parts.
But my best guess was that when they crossed some plug wires, they got unlucky and slammed a piston backwards and broke a tooth and the chain slipped when they tried to start it. Won't know until they pull the dizzy. I doubt they will crank the engine backwards to measure slopp.

It's also possible that someone earlier reinstalled the dizzy wrong and just rotated the wires and got the spark to line up to the right cylinders. Kind of a hassle with that cap...

[lesterl]

Was talking about grabbing the ROTOR bug in the dizzy and trying to rotate it back and forth to see if there is slop/ turnage.

[Bill Wheats]

No. I was taking about cranking the engine backwards till the rotor starts moving the other way.

If there isn't any slop and they pull the dizzy and the gear isn't shot, then they might not have a timing chain issue....

Of course I don't know what issues they had before they started giving it a tune up, or what history that dizzy has.

[MikDee]

Well Hush my mouth! I never saw a Dizzy I could not turn in these Chevy motors Man I'm gettin old! It seems they eliminated the "Dummy Factor" of putting the Dist. body, or rotor, in the wrong place! Not a bad thing, all you hafta do now is just make sure the rotor is dropped in to match the Dist. #6 Mark. That's Cool, But the fact that the rotor is way off in this case, means that if no one had the Dizzy out, either the shaft pin sheared, or a bit worse, the Dizzy gear is stripped, (I doubt the cam gear is damaged, they're pretty hard) or the timing chain slipped, or broke? I'd pull the Dizzy to check the shaft pin and gear?, if not that, I'd look inside with a bright light, to see what the cam gear looks like, then if not that, I'd assume there is something wrong at the camshaft chain, & gears, the next place to open up, & take a look!

[Bill Wheats]

The dizzy gears are made of nylon or plastic so that if something has to break it's the dizzy gear that is easier to replace.
As for it being off, I'm not sold on any of their tests yet. I really would not be surprised it the router is pointing to #3 because ther were on the exhust stroke instead of the compression stroke.
Tuff troubleshooting over the net. It's easy to overlook what I might consider the obvious!
I wish them the best, but the whole problem could have been that one of the sensor wires got nicked and popped a fuse after replacement. Or worse...

[Yogi]

Quote: Originally Posted by Bill Wheats

The dizzy gears are made of nylon or plastic so that if something has to break it's the dizzy gear that is easier to replace.
As for it being off, I'm not sold on any of their tests yet. I really would not be surprised it the router is pointing to #3 because ther were on the exhust stroke instead of the compression stroke.
Tuff troubleshooting over the net. It's easy to overlook what I might consider the obvious!
I wish them the best, but the whole problem could have been that one of the sensor wires got nicked and popped a fuse after replacement. Or worse...

If he had it on the wrong stroke, the rotor would be pointing 180* off, not 40*!

[Bill Wheats]

Your right. I was just pointing out that I'm not taking anything for granted until the dizzy is pulled.

[MikDee]

Quote: Originally Posted by Bill Wheats

The dizzy gears are made of nylon or plastic so that if something has to break it's the dizzy gear that is easier to replace.
As for it being off, I'm not sold on any of their tests yet. I really would not be surprised it the router is pointing to #3 because ther were on the exhust stroke instead of the compression stroke.
Tuff troubleshooting over the net. It's easy to overlook what I might consider the obvious!
I wish them the best, but the whole problem could have been that one of the sensor wires got nicked and popped a fuse after replacement. Or worse...

Plastic gears! What crap! I never saw a car Dizzy with plastic gears!? Is this True??? I guess it could be with a Stupid plastic Dizzy! By the way, I'm figuring he had the crank timing marks perfectly lined up at this time on TDC when he took the Pic. I wouldn't trust a nylon gear much, meshing with a hard metal Cam gear! I still stand by my previous statement, as to whats wrong.

[lesterl]

Could change the oil and see if there are any plastic pieces in the oil.

[MikeInCtown]

Just mark the stupid thing good and pull it already!

[lesterl]

Bump

[Bill Wheats]

Why? We'll never know until the OP comes back.

[azpyroguy]

Sorry for the delay in getting back here.. been super busy all week.

The distributor was pulled, and looks great, except for the broken ear.

Next we are going to pull the timing cover, and check the timing gear/chain, I can only think now for the timing to be so far out of whack, that ot skipped a tooth or two, or the chain just stretched so much.

Will let the thread know as it gets torn down to that point.

I have heard the stock timing sprocket is plastic on these...

[azpyroguy]

Quote: Originally Posted by lesterl

Was talking about grabbing the ROTOR bug in the dizzy and trying to rotate it back and forth to see if there is slop/ turnage.

When we pulled the dizzy, no slop was found, or damage to the cam gear. So we are on to the next piece of looking at the timing chain, and sprockets.

[azpyroguy]

Quote: Originally Posted by Bill Wheats

The dizzy gears are made of nylon or plastic so that if something has to break it's the dizzy gear that is easier to replace.
As for it being off, I'm not sold on any of their tests yet. I really would not be surprised it the router is pointing to #3 because ther were on the exhust stroke instead of the compression stroke.
Tuff troubleshooting over the net. It's easy to overlook what I might consider the obvious!
I wish them the best, but the whole problem could have been that one of the sensor wires got nicked and popped a fuse after replacement. Or worse...

We checked to make sure it was TDC#1, and the rotor is as close as we can get to point to #6 (with 40 degrees off). We did this several times, to make sure that we were in the proper location.

All the fuses were checked as well, and found to be good. Not just visually checked either, we did a meter test on all of them.

[MikDee]

I guess the pin through the Dizzy shaft is good? Did you try putting the Dizzy in with the rotor pointed at #6, and see what happens, if all seems ok?

I don't think the cam timing gear is plastic on these, (I could be wrong though?) as far as I know, Chevy went back to steel gears, back in the mid 80's because they had too many problems with the plastic gears (originally, it was made plastic for noise reduction )

One more thing, If you take it apart to check, & fix it, make sure the engine is setup to fire Cyl. #1, instead of Cyl. #4, The crank timing marks will show TDC for either one, because the cam only turns 1/2 as much as the crank, so each revolution of the crank TDC will come up on #1, then #4, etc.
Or on #4, then #1, etc. it can get confusing, but if you find it does not run, you can just take out the Dizzy, and give the rotor 1/2 a turn, & put it back in there, it will be right.

[lesterl]

Mike I think he was talking about a plastic cam gear to dist gear, you never know tho, these do use metal gears and chain for camshaft to crank. The tensioner may have given way and let the chain slip, like I said earlier it is doing what my '87 grand am did when it jumped cam timing. New gears and chain/ damper it worked good for what it was.

[Bill Wheats]

Thanks for making it back here. This thread has sparked my interest.
I'm glad that you rechecked the fuses. I hate to see someone pull their timing chain just to find that it was a fuse due to a wire getting pinched.
Having No slop when you cranked it backwords is a good thing.
You may not have to pull the timing chain. The broken gear might be the extent of the damage.
Please keep us posted

[MikDee]

He said broken "ear"??? Does that mean the part that you screw the Dist. cap onto, (the ear) or did he mean "broken gear"??? If it's a broken gear, Thats it! Fix that, and he's done, I'd think.

[azpyroguy]

Quote: Originally Posted by MikDee

He said broken "ear"??? Does that mean the part that you screw the Dist. cap onto, (the ear) or did he mean "broken gear"??? If it's a broken gear, Thats it! Fix that, and he's done, I'd think.

Broken "Ear", part that the dist cap screws onto.

[Bill Wheats]

OK. I guess I missed that earlier. That would explain why the dizzy gear is trashed. I didn't see any damage to the rotor in that pic???