More silly questions from the new guy about 2.8/3.4L swap

Jaxom · 10-06-2009, 02:57 AM

Okay, you've all convinced me that instead of buy the crate ht 3.4L it's best to get a bone yard or donor engine someplace else and rebuild that. Being inexperienced in these matters, it was also suggested once I do aquire an engine, that I have it professionally cleaned, and rebuilt.

First question, and I think I already know the answer is this. What I'm basically looking for is a "short block". I don't need the heads, intake or anything else off the 93-95 3.4L? Do you think a bone yard would offer a few bucks off, since I'm not buying a "complete" engined?

Once I get the short block home, I sappose the next thing to do is shop around for a good machine shop that could do the bottom end for me. What is a typical price for having this done, assuming that I would be replacing any worn parts with stock OEM GM parts? Speaking of which, *IF* there are any after market parts that are better or more durable, such as pistons, valves, cam, ect that need replacing, what should I ask for?

Once I get the rebuilt short block back and I get it up on a stand to start building the top end. This means the heads, intake and plenium <sp> form 97-99 grand am. I've read to make these more efficent, I can grind and port them out? I've seen this being done on some diy auto programs, I think I can handle do that, but if I recall there's a "tab" in the aluminium upper that needs to be removed. Does anyone have a link or a picture of this?

Electrically speaking, I'm still a bit confused on some things. Do I need the ecm and harness from the donor 93-95 vehicle or the ecm from the 97-99 vehicle...because I'm going from TBI to MPI?

Raven, since you mentioned this, and I have no reason not to believe you. Can you describe what I'll need to do to get the 700R4 to work with a hybred 3.4L. I'd really apperciate that. I've read about other's doing it, but they're instructions leave little to be desired. I know there's going to be an issue about the 700R4 having only 3 wires going to it and the 4L60E having 12? But that someone makes and adapter. As far as converting to the VSS instead of mechanical speed sensor, I may have to rig something. I'm planning converting my gauges to digital. To do so they have a converter for this.

http://www.dakotadigital.com/index.c...rod/prd234.htm

Thanks!

Jax

350X · 10-06-2009, 03:12 AM

Find a good machine shop first, then ask them where to get a core.
They may even be set up for that. Also not easy to find a good shop, is always a few bad ones in every town, being a BBB member means jack.

Ask to look at their equipment, take note of stuff.

Once you do pick one, come back often, ask to look, pay close attention.

Buddy fell right into a bad one, guy is tellin us how crank n block n everything else needs bored and hone bla bla $$$ guy start bragging about something else and we ge in the back, there sits buddies engine still full of grease and never taken apart. He claims he makes his guys take it 100% apart to check, then put it all back 100% and I guess smear grease all over so it looks untouched.

He foolishly didn't yank it out of there. Cost 3 times as much to get it done right the 2nd time. BBB said he was a valid member and had some problems but no cases ever completed, BBB only calls to confirm, shop owner just hangs up on them when ever they call, case is never solved, he keeps BBB status.

phaderus · 10-06-2009, 03:49 PM

http://www.autometer.com/cat_gaugesearch.aspx?pg=1 a helluva lot cheaper and most likley more reliable gauges.

The_Raven · 10-06-2009, 09:01 PM

You're getting stuck on the idea of "needing" a certain ECM or combination of parts.

You're not going to want to use any OBD2 or 1.5 ECMs for this. On top of needing a bunch of extra sensors on communications busses, OBD2 also requires a BCM to be swapped in, or spending a lot of money on tuning equipment and licences for the OBD2 PCM.

Get an OBD1 ECM, from an '87 to '94 J-body (Cavalier/Sunbird), with a V6, '88 to '92 L-body (Beretta/Corsica/etc) with a V6, and a few other options as well, but those are easy vehicles to find. These will all use the DIS ignition and be set up for that (some internal bin differences from a dizzy calibration), and MPFI, as well as the mechanical tranny, controlling the TCC as well. The FWD 2.8/3.1 used a 3 speed though, not a 4 speed, but won't make too much of a difference, especially for getting it running. I drove around for two years on an auto bin with a 5-speed, it wasn't ideal, but it worked.

So you won't need any adaptors for the tranny or anything like that. You will need to add a VSS though, you'll need one for the digital speedo anyway, so you should be able to use that VSS for the ECM. Painless Wiring makes VSS that screws onto the speedo cable output.

Jaxom · 10-08-2009, 08:48 PM

Hmm...seems more to this then I orginally thought, good thing there's experts that know all about it around! Thanks for the info Raven, I'm putting together a notebook for all the parts I'll require.

I'm starting to get a picture of how the 700R4 will work with the 3.4 hybred given the explainations you've given. Although, I'm not sure how is the TV cable going to be handled? Will I need to build/make a special bracket to connect that to the throttle body?

Got some good news today, buddy of mine need a part from local bone yard, while there I inquired about buying a short block. $157 including $20 core. Mind you I they offer 50% off for anything bought on wednesday. Right timing I can get that for $80 woohooo!!! Only thing is, they don't cut 'em out for ya, have to do that yourself.

The_Raven · 10-08-2009, 10:44 PM

There are a couple ways to work with the TV cable.

One way would be to add some sort of lever/arm and bracketry to the TB.

The other way, and the one I would look into more if I was going that route, would be to get a "cruise box" from a '93 to '95 (IIRC) Quad 4 equipped Beretta/Corsica, possibly other cars.

Your throttle cable will attach to this, then there will be a cable that goes to your throttle body, and one that attaches to the TV cable. FWD swappers retaining the original 3T40/TH125C use this for thier TV cable.

phaderus · 10-09-2009, 08:39 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Jaxom

Hmm...seems more to this then I orginally thought, good thing there's experts that know all about it around! Thanks for the info Raven, I'm putting together a notebook for all the parts I'll require.

I'm starting to get a picture of how the 700R4 will work with the 3.4 hybred given the explanations you've given. Although, I'm not sure how is the TV cable going to be handled? Will I need to build/make a special bracket to connect that to the throttle body?

Got some good news today, buddy of mine need a part from local bone yard, while there I inquired about buying a short block. $157 including $20 core. Mind you I they offer 50% off for anything bought on wednesday. Right timing I can get that for $80 woohooo!!! Only thing is, they don't cut 'em out for ya, have to do that yourself.

Are using a TB for fuel Injection? If so, there is a bracket that holds the the TV cable in place on the TB with an automatic transmissions. You should be able to get it very cheap. It is attached to the throttle body with three bolts. I have a couple of extras around the house.

My 87 has a throttle body and a 700r4.

The TV cable fits in the bracket, which is attached to the front passenger side of the TB, and is connected to throttle. Then you have to adjust the cable to ensure proper shifts.

To adjust the TV cable, press the D shape button on the TV cable, pull the cable away from throttle body, then open the throttle all way. It should self adjust and you should here it click. If the pressure is adjusted properly it should not down shift when you have throttle beyond a certain position- say going up a hill. TCI has a great example in their documentation for their 700r4.

Go to a bone yard, find a throttle body with an automatic, grab the bracket.It is three small bolts, either a 7 or 8 mm. It should only cost you a few bucks, and it will take about five minutes.

The 700r4 is a great transmission. Tons of old timers replace their 300s, in their v8 hot rods, with it because of the mileage and the low first first gear. Although, they use 700r4 from a 90 degree engine. Because they are using a carburetor they often need to fabricate a special bracket for it. I believe Holly even sells a bracket just for this purpose.

I know a guy in Ohio that rebuilds 700r4s dirt cheap. It probably the most common tyranny that GM ever made, and parts for it are cheap. The 700r4, from a 6-60 S10 bolts right up to a 3.4 Chevy Camaro block or even a modern 3400.

The_Raven · 10-10-2009, 12:39 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by phaderus

Are using a TB for fuel Injection? If so, there is a bracket that holds the the TV cable in place on the TB with an automatic transmissions. You should be able to get it very cheap. It is attached to the throttle body with three bolts. I have a couple of extras around the house.

My 87 has a throttle body and a 700r4.

The TV cable fits in the bracket, which is attached to the front passenger side of the TB, and is connected to throttle. Then you have to adjust the cable to ensure proper shifts.

To adjust the TV cable, press the D shape button on the TV cable, pull the cable away from throttle body, then open the throttle all way. It should self adjust and you should here it click. If the pressure is adjusted properly it should not down shift when you have throttle beyond a certain position- say going up a hill. TCI has a great example in their documentation for their 700r4.

Go to a bone yard, find a throttle body with an automatic, grab the bracket.It is three small bolts, either a 7 or 8 mm. It should only cost you a few bucks, and it will take about five minutes.

The 700r4 is a great transmission. Tons of old timers replace their 300s, in their v8 hot rods, with it because of the mileage and the low first first gear. Although, they use 700r4 from a 90 degree engine. Because they are using a carburetor they often need to fabricate a special bracket for it. I believe Holly even sells a bracket just for this purpose.

I know a guy in Ohio that rebuilds 700r4s dirt cheap. It probably the most common tyranny that GM ever made, and parts for it are cheap. The 700r4, from a 6-60 S10 bolts right up to a 3.4 Chevy Camaro block or even a modern 3400.

That would be fine and all if he was using a TBI, but a hybrid uses gen3 (FWD) heads and intake, that does not accept a TV cable.

neo71665 · 10-10-2009, 02:40 AM

Man, simple reading just owns some people.

phaderus · 10-10-2009, 03:15 AM

I guesss that one seamed to easy. I thought he meant TBI when he was discussing the actual throttle body. I do know that people have issues with that tranny and swapping carbs and that there are aftermarket brackets for some carbs. I know that a third gen TB is completly different; I drive a 3400 99 Grand AM. I would'nt go that route, the tension has to be just right or you will burn up the tranny. But if I chose to make a bracket I would use the following link as a guide for dimensions.

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sum...o/700R4p1.html
http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/700r...wot-57331.html
http://racetransmissions.com/store/p...roducts_id/122

Jaxom · 10-10-2009, 04:02 AM

Now I'm gonna toss another fly in the ointment.... I was just reading on another forum, that it's possible to use a 3500 plentium with the 3400 heads, lim, uim. Only problem is... the 3500 throttle body is wired, no way to rig the TV cable from trans to it.

Good news to the rescue!!! I found a guy that rebuilds 700R4/4L60E's. Price difference is only $25, so I might as well go with the 4L60E.

More good news...I have a line on some extra work, meaning instead of having to rush out and do stuff on the truck, I can get another vehicle for my DD, and just store the truck and do the swapping and stuff as budget (now larger) permits.

Back to the block and rebuilding. Talked a bit about tranny issues, and a bit on ecm's and such. But I'm still wondering when the time comes to take the block in to a shop, what after market parts are suggested that I can upgrade to?

FYI, concider this, for me when responding. This is my one and only shot at a project vehicle. I probably won't be doing another...unless I win the lottery or something... Ya never know. So while on one hand I'm "on a budget" in the other hand if it takes a bit more time and investment to tweak a bit more out of this project, I don't mind. Case in point, if I prefer (note I know it's not nessary because that has been explained) wanted to upgrade to an obd 2 and having to replace the entire wiring harness, so be it. Another thing with this, I'm in no rush to get this done. Yeah, there was a point I just needed a working vehicle, but the rough times I was having, have been slowly improving. So what if this takes me a year or five to complete, there sure are other worse things I could be spending my money on, eh?

Jax

phaderus · 10-10-2009, 04:33 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by neo71665

Man, simple reading just owns some people.

Glad to see that you have never made a ****ing mistake. I admitted I was wrong and moved on.

Do you derive pleasure from arrogant statements? Now there is some "simple reading" for you!

The_Raven · 10-10-2009, 12:08 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Jaxom

Now I'm gonna toss another fly in the ointment.... I was just reading on another forum, that it's possible to use a 3500 plentium with the 3400 heads, lim, uim. Only problem is... the 3500 throttle body is wired, no way to rig the TV cable from trans to it.

Good news to the rescue!!! I found a guy that rebuilds 700R4/4L60E's. Price difference is only $25, so I might as well go with the 4L60E.

More good news...I have a line on some extra work, meaning instead of having to rush out and do stuff on the truck, I can get another vehicle for my DD, and just store the truck and do the swapping and stuff as budget (now larger) permits.

Back to the block and rebuilding. Talked a bit about tranny issues, and a bit on ecm's and such. But I'm still wondering when the time comes to take the block in to a shop, what after market parts are suggested that I can upgrade to?

FYI, concider this, for me when responding. This is my one and only shot at a project vehicle. I probably won't be doing another...unless I win the lottery or something... Ya never know. So while on one hand I'm "on a budget" in the other hand if it takes a bit more time and investment to tweak a bit more out of this project, I don't mind. Case in point, if I prefer (note I know it's not nessary because that has been explained) wanted to upgrade to an obd 2 and having to replace the entire wiring harness, so be it. Another thing with this, I'm in no rush to get this done. Yeah, there was a point I just needed a working vehicle, but the rough times I was having, have been slowly improving. So what if this takes me a year or five to complete, there sure are other worse things I could be spending my money on, eh?

Jax

Well, going to a 4L60E won't be any better or worse than using a 700R4, just different. If you want to retro fit it into your truck, cool, we can work with that. Like I've mentioned before I'll be swapping the TH350 to a 4L60E next spring in my grandfather's '71 Chev street rod truck, because it'll have the good low first and over drive, we won't have fluid puking issues when sitting in the garage (Uhg TH350s.....) but mostly because I think it'll get that "WTF? factor" coupled with the late model Vortec 355 and early Corvette Crossfire intake, and quite possibly DIS.

I don't consider OBD2 as an "upgrade", it's just more complex for the sake of being more complex.
About the only thing you gain with OBD2 is SFI, which amounts to very little improvement over running an OBD1 ECM. In fact my 1973 Datsun, that I am running with a '7749 (OBD1) ECM gets better gas milage than my 1998 Malibu, I drive my Datsun with much more gusto than I do the Malibu.

Yes I have tuned the Datsun myself, but I should get way better gas milage with the Malibu, so I don't see OBD2 as an upgrade. I also have much longer cranking time with my Malibu than my Datsun, which I have experianced with many OBD2 vehicles.

Now if I was doing what you are doing..... oh wait I basically have and will be again....

, but if I was to use a 4L60E I would use a '7427 ECM found in the '93 to '95 GM trucks, yes they were TBI, but had 4L60E in them. I know you're thinking: "But I'll be using MPFI", yes you will be. The code called $OD that is used in those ECMs has a cool little switch in them that changes the injector control scheme from TBI to MPFI.

It also has mechanical/electronic tranny switches, to be used with either manual or non electronic automatics. It's a very versitile ECM, that the only thing it's lacking is some sort of boost control. To control MPFI there is also a change needed to the MEMCAL itself (The part with the EPROM, and CALPAK) to physically change the injector firing scheme as well. More information about these changes can be found in the DIY PROM section on www.thirdgen.org. I would use this ECM well before using OBD2. Also tuning this ECM ('7427) can be done using equipment totalling less than $200 (could be less that $100 depending on where you get certain items from), if you want reall time tuning, which is the only way I do it now, add about $175 for a Moates.net Ostrich 2.0 EPROM emulator. Compare this to the several hundred, to thousands needed for getting into an OBD2 ECM to tune it, because the software requires licences, and keys that companies charge a lot for and doesn't support real time tuning, since the vehcile must be not running when uploading a new cal. OBD1 seems much nicer to me.

moates.net does have an emulator for the OBD2 PCM, but I have only seen applcations for LSx engines listed, not sure what it would take to use with other engines.
The other way I look at is this, I can swap an OBD1 ECM into most vehicles in a couple days to a week, depending on how much I need to adapt, non GM engines require more adapting.

Where as OBD2 would take more time due to how they integrate with just about every other system in the vehicle, through the BCM. So to me, I'd rather use the "older" system that I can swap in quickly, tune qucikly and enjoy my ride, than be the guy that is still working on getting my ride running, due to over complication.

This doesn't have to do with needing to rush to get it done, it has to do with putting effort into the areas that will make the biggest difference.

There is also conflicting views on whether a FWD PCM that originally had a 4T60E would control a 4L60E.

You can use the 3500 UIM on the 3400 lower LIM. This requires a TB adaptor, to use a cable driven TB. WOT (part of 60degreev6.com) sells an adaptor that uses a TB that way too large for the engines. LS1 TB IIRC. Anything over about 60mm is a complete waste, and even the stock 3400 56mm TB might be a tad on the large side IMO. On the Franken60, I started with a 56mm TB, but then swapped to a 52mm TB, since it made more bottem end torque and E.T.s at the track dropped by about 3 tenths by swapping to a smaller TB.

The tests were done on the same day, swapped the TB right there in the pits. Intake air velocity has to be paid attention to. A TB is a case were larger isn't always better.

You can make your own adaptor from some aluminium using drill bits, files, taps, etc.

Mostly for aftermarket engine parts that are easily available are cams. I used a GMPP equivilant of the Crane 260-2. If I was to build an N/A 660, in a similar application to what you are doing I would look at either a Crane 272, or Schnider solid roller conversion cams, since they are geared towards N/A application with their tight LSA.

You will need custom length pushrods, especially when using an aftermarket cam in a genI block, with genIII heads and roller rockers.

neo71665 · 10-10-2009, 12:52 PM

I'm just wondering why you are so bound and set on swapping to OBD2?

While on that note why do you think the 460le is better than the 700r4.

Jaxom · 10-11-2009, 05:00 PM

That is some excellent information Raven, then you VERY much. I'll stick with the OBD I system then. I have to admit, sometimes doing more research can be confusing to me. Take for instance, the types of injection.(EFI, SFI, MPFI) This caused me even more confusion as which ecm with which version of obd was needed, since gm sometimes overlapped which years used which. Not all that different to the gen 1's where they were either carbed or TBI'd.

RE tranny types. I was just looking at which would be the most straight forwear to install. Mind you I've never done this type of thing before, unlike many here that often do these things for a living, or at the very least have had the advantage of being around those that did.

I do have to say, the more I learn about this swap, and what it all entails, (above and beyond many of the simplified walk throughs), it's a bit more complex that I orginally thought. And that it won't matter which trans I use, some sort of rigging will need to be done.

This leads me to another option that I have not totally ruled out. And that is, when the time comes, just yank the current 2.8L out and rebuilding that and reinstalling it. And just doing some mild upgrades to it (4.3L tbi, w/ ca induction) and what ever other little bits and pieces have been recommended.

It has been always my intentions to use this truck as one to haul a boat with and go camping. I don't need all the latest and greatest thing-a-bobs in it, just abit more torque, and definetly better gas milage (still getting around 10mpg's). Doing a 3.4L swap seemed like the ideal way to achieve this. At the very least, just like with the current engine, I could go with a rebuilt 3.4l and keep it tbi'd. Saving me a whole heck alot of installation issues.

This is why going with the crate version applealed to me so much. I could litterly drop that right in, re-use the UIM from my 2.8L, that's been bored out to accept the 4.3L TBI. This would connect straight up to the OBD 1 and 700R4 that I currently have now. But as Neo pointed out, this would void the warrenty...

The_Raven · 10-11-2009, 05:19 PM

Yes, keeping the current TBI and retaining the original engine bay setup will be the easiest, even using the 3.4 which will help provide more torque due to the longer stroke and increased displacement.

My Franken60, was a 3.2L (bored 2.8 block and 3.1 crank), with the small port 3100 top end and a small turbo had no problem pulling cars around on a car trailer. My next build will be similar but increasing the displacement a little more to 3.4L and using a large port top end, with twin T25 turbos. Even if I nixed the turbos I know it could work well pulling a small boat around.

Which ever way you go, there is information on how to go about it.

Jaxom · 10-11-2009, 05:59 PM

I've learned alot in this thread. I think for now my best bet is to just do a normal 2.8L modify...after replacing the trans. Get my body work done, perhaps do headers/hi flow muffler system. 124K miles isn't all that bad on a 2.8L. Especially since I know better on taking care of it and doing regular maintenance.

When the time comes... A "mild" 3.4L hybred maybe my personal best option to go with. That being keeping most things stock. Swapping out fan, water pump, power steering for electric units, get some after pully set. Ya know...all those little tweeks GM should have done orginally!

Thanks Raven, Neo...for bearing with my newbie questions.

Jax

10-06-2009, 02:57 AM	#1
Jaxom Registered User Age: 44 Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 191 Location: User is: OffLine	More silly questions from the new guy about 2.8/3.4L swap Okay, you've all convinced me that instead of buy the crate ht 3.4L it's best to get a bone yard or donor engine someplace else and rebuild that. Being inexperienced in these matters, it was also suggested once I do aquire an engine, that I have it professionally cleaned, and rebuilt. First question, and I think I already know the answer is this. What I'm basically looking for is a "short block". I don't need the heads, intake or anything else off the 93-95 3.4L? Do you think a bone yard would offer a few bucks off, since I'm not buying a "complete" engined? Once I get the short block home, I sappose the next thing to do is shop around for a good machine shop that could do the bottom end for me. What is a typical price for having this done, assuming that I would be replacing any worn parts with stock OEM GM parts? Speaking of which, IF there are any after market parts that are better or more durable, such as pistons, valves, cam, ect that need replacing, what should I ask for? Once I get the rebuilt short block back and I get it up on a stand to start building the top end. This means the heads, intake and plenium <sp> form 97-99 grand am. I've read to make these more efficent, I can grind and port them out? I've seen this being done on some diy auto programs, I think I can handle do that, but if I recall there's a "tab" in the aluminium upper that needs to be removed. Does anyone have a link or a picture of this? Electrically speaking, I'm still a bit confused on some things. Do I need the ecm and harness from the donor 93-95 vehicle or the ecm from the 97-99 vehicle...because I'm going from TBI to MPI? Raven, since you mentioned this, and I have no reason not to believe you. Can you describe what I'll need to do to get the 700R4 to work with a hybred 3.4L. I'd really apperciate that. I've read about other's doing it, but they're instructions leave little to be desired. I know there's going to be an issue about the 700R4 having only 3 wires going to it and the 4L60E having 12? But that someone makes and adapter. As far as converting to the VSS instead of mechanical speed sensor, I may have to rig something. I'm planning converting my gauges to digital. To do so they have a converter for this. http://www.dakotadigital.com/index.c...rod/prd234.htm Thanks! Jax
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10-06-2009, 03:12 AM	#2
350X Matt Smith Age: 37 Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 318 Location: NW Ohio User is: OffLine	Re: More silly questions from the new guy about 2.8/3.4L swap Find a good machine shop first, then ask them where to get a core. They may even be set up for that. Also not easy to find a good shop, is always a few bad ones in every town, being a BBB member means jack. Ask to look at their equipment, take note of stuff. Once you do pick one, come back often, ask to look, pay close attention. Buddy fell right into a bad one, guy is tellin us how crank n block n everything else needs bored and hone bla bla $$$ guy start bragging about something else and we ge in the back, there sits buddies engine still full of grease and never taken apart. He claims he makes his guys take it 100% apart to check, then put it all back 100% and I guess smear grease all over so it looks untouched. He foolishly didn't yank it out of there. Cost 3 times as much to get it done right the 2nd time. BBB said he was a valid member and had some problems but no cases ever completed, BBB only calls to confirm, shop owner just hangs up on them when ever they call, case is never solved, he keeps BBB status.
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10-06-2009, 03:49 PM	#3
phaderus Registered User Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 27 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: More silly questions from the new guy about 2.8/3.4L swap http://www.autometer.com/cat_gaugesearch.aspx?pg=1 a helluva lot cheaper and most likley more reliable gauges.
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10-06-2009, 09:01 PM	#4
The_Raven Registered User Age: 32 Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,039 Location: The Nest User is: OffLine	Re: More silly questions from the new guy about 2.8/3.4L swap You're getting stuck on the idea of "needing" a certain ECM or combination of parts. You're not going to want to use any OBD2 or 1.5 ECMs for this. On top of needing a bunch of extra sensors on communications busses, OBD2 also requires a BCM to be swapped in, or spending a lot of money on tuning equipment and licences for the OBD2 PCM. Get an OBD1 ECM, from an '87 to '94 J-body (Cavalier/Sunbird), with a V6, '88 to '92 L-body (Beretta/Corsica/etc) with a V6, and a few other options as well, but those are easy vehicles to find. These will all use the DIS ignition and be set up for that (some internal bin differences from a dizzy calibration), and MPFI, as well as the mechanical tranny, controlling the TCC as well. The FWD 2.8/3.1 used a 3 speed though, not a 4 speed, but won't make too much of a difference, especially for getting it running. I drove around for two years on an auto bin with a 5-speed, it wasn't ideal, but it worked. So you won't need any adaptors for the tranny or anything like that. You will need to add a VSS though, you'll need one for the digital speedo anyway, so you should be able to use that VSS for the ECM. Painless Wiring makes VSS that screws onto the speedo cable output.
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10-08-2009, 08:48 PM	#5
Jaxom Registered User Age: 44 Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 191 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: More silly questions from the new guy about 2.8/3.4L swap Hmm...seems more to this then I orginally thought, good thing there's experts that know all about it around! Thanks for the info Raven, I'm putting together a notebook for all the parts I'll require. I'm starting to get a picture of how the 700R4 will work with the 3.4 hybred given the explainations you've given. Although, I'm not sure how is the TV cable going to be handled? Will I need to build/make a special bracket to connect that to the throttle body? Got some good news today, buddy of mine need a part from local bone yard, while there I inquired about buying a short block. $157 including $20 core. Mind you I they offer 50% off for anything bought on wednesday. Right timing I can get that for $80 woohooo!!! Only thing is, they don't cut 'em out for ya, have to do that yourself.
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10-08-2009, 10:44 PM	#6
The_Raven Registered User Age: 32 Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,039 Location: The Nest User is: OffLine	Re: More silly questions from the new guy about 2.8/3.4L swap There are a couple ways to work with the TV cable. One way would be to add some sort of lever/arm and bracketry to the TB. The other way, and the one I would look into more if I was going that route, would be to get a "cruise box" from a '93 to '95 (IIRC) Quad 4 equipped Beretta/Corsica, possibly other cars. Your throttle cable will attach to this, then there will be a cable that goes to your throttle body, and one that attaches to the TV cable. FWD swappers retaining the original 3T40/TH125C use this for thier TV cable.
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10-09-2009, 08:39 PM	#7
phaderus Registered User Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 27 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: More silly questions from the new guy about 2.8/3.4L swap Quote: Originally Posted by Jaxom Hmm...seems more to this then I orginally thought, good thing there's experts that know all about it around! Thanks for the info Raven, I'm putting together a notebook for all the parts I'll require. I'm starting to get a picture of how the 700R4 will work with the 3.4 hybred given the explanations you've given. Although, I'm not sure how is the TV cable going to be handled? Will I need to build/make a special bracket to connect that to the throttle body? Got some good news today, buddy of mine need a part from local bone yard, while there I inquired about buying a short block. $157 including $20 core. Mind you I they offer 50% off for anything bought on wednesday. Right timing I can get that for $80 woohooo!!! Only thing is, they don't cut 'em out for ya, have to do that yourself. Are using a TB for fuel Injection? If so, there is a bracket that holds the the TV cable in place on the TB with an automatic transmissions. You should be able to get it very cheap. It is attached to the throttle body with three bolts. I have a couple of extras around the house. My 87 has a throttle body and a 700r4. The TV cable fits in the bracket, which is attached to the front passenger side of the TB, and is connected to throttle. Then you have to adjust the cable to ensure proper shifts. To adjust the TV cable, press the D shape button on the TV cable, pull the cable away from throttle body, then open the throttle all way. It should self adjust and you should here it click. If the pressure is adjusted properly it should not down shift when you have throttle beyond a certain position- say going up a hill. TCI has a great example in their documentation for their 700r4. Go to a bone yard, find a throttle body with an automatic, grab the bracket.It is three small bolts, either a 7 or 8 mm. It should only cost you a few bucks, and it will take about five minutes. The 700r4 is a great transmission. Tons of old timers replace their 300s, in their v8 hot rods, with it because of the mileage and the low first first gear. Although, they use 700r4 from a 90 degree engine. Because they are using a carburetor they often need to fabricate a special bracket for it. I believe Holly even sells a bracket just for this purpose. I know a guy in Ohio that rebuilds 700r4s dirt cheap. It probably the most common tyranny that GM ever made, and parts for it are cheap. The 700r4, from a 6-60 S10 bolts right up to a 3.4 Chevy Camaro block or even a modern 3400.
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10-10-2009, 12:39 AM	#8
The_Raven Registered User Age: 32 Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,039 Location: The Nest User is: OffLine	Re: More silly questions from the new guy about 2.8/3.4L swap Quote: Originally Posted by phaderus Are using a TB for fuel Injection? If so, there is a bracket that holds the the TV cable in place on the TB with an automatic transmissions. You should be able to get it very cheap. It is attached to the throttle body with three bolts. I have a couple of extras around the house. My 87 has a throttle body and a 700r4. The TV cable fits in the bracket, which is attached to the front passenger side of the TB, and is connected to throttle. Then you have to adjust the cable to ensure proper shifts. To adjust the TV cable, press the D shape button on the TV cable, pull the cable away from throttle body, then open the throttle all way. It should self adjust and you should here it click. If the pressure is adjusted properly it should not down shift when you have throttle beyond a certain position- say going up a hill. TCI has a great example in their documentation for their 700r4. Go to a bone yard, find a throttle body with an automatic, grab the bracket.It is three small bolts, either a 7 or 8 mm. It should only cost you a few bucks, and it will take about five minutes. The 700r4 is a great transmission. Tons of old timers replace their 300s, in their v8 hot rods, with it because of the mileage and the low first first gear. Although, they use 700r4 from a 90 degree engine. Because they are using a carburetor they often need to fabricate a special bracket for it. I believe Holly even sells a bracket just for this purpose. I know a guy in Ohio that rebuilds 700r4s dirt cheap. It probably the most common tyranny that GM ever made, and parts for it are cheap. The 700r4, from a 6-60 S10 bolts right up to a 3.4 Chevy Camaro block or even a modern 3400. That would be fine and all if he was using a TBI, but a hybrid uses gen3 (FWD) heads and intake, that does not accept a TV cable.
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10-10-2009, 02:40 AM	#9
neo71665 4x4 v6 blazer Age: 29 Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 5,002 Location: rison arkansas User is: OffLine	Re: More silly questions from the new guy about 2.8/3.4L swap Man, simple reading just owns some people.
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10-10-2009, 03:15 AM	#10
phaderus Registered User Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 27 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: More silly questions from the new guy about 2.8/3.4L swap I guesss that one seamed to easy. I thought he meant TBI when he was discussing the actual throttle body. I do know that people have issues with that tranny and swapping carbs and that there are aftermarket brackets for some carbs. I know that a third gen TB is completly different; I drive a 3400 99 Grand AM. I would'nt go that route, the tension has to be just right or you will burn up the tranny. But if I chose to make a bracket I would use the following link as a guide for dimensions. http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sum...o/700R4p1.html http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/700r...wot-57331.html http://racetransmissions.com/store/p...roducts_id/122
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10-10-2009, 04:02 AM	#11
Jaxom Registered User Age: 44 Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 191 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: More silly questions from the new guy about 2.8/3.4L swap Now I'm gonna toss another fly in the ointment.... I was just reading on another forum, that it's possible to use a 3500 plentium with the 3400 heads, lim, uim. Only problem is... the 3500 throttle body is wired, no way to rig the TV cable from trans to it. Good news to the rescue!!! I found a guy that rebuilds 700R4/4L60E's. Price difference is only $25, so I might as well go with the 4L60E. More good news...I have a line on some extra work, meaning instead of having to rush out and do stuff on the truck, I can get another vehicle for my DD, and just store the truck and do the swapping and stuff as budget (now larger) permits. Back to the block and rebuilding. Talked a bit about tranny issues, and a bit on ecm's and such. But I'm still wondering when the time comes to take the block in to a shop, what after market parts are suggested that I can upgrade to? FYI, concider this, for me when responding. This is my one and only shot at a project vehicle. I probably won't be doing another...unless I win the lottery or something... Ya never know. So while on one hand I'm "on a budget" in the other hand if it takes a bit more time and investment to tweak a bit more out of this project, I don't mind. Case in point, if I prefer (note I know it's not nessary because that has been explained) wanted to upgrade to an obd 2 and having to replace the entire wiring harness, so be it. Another thing with this, I'm in no rush to get this done. Yeah, there was a point I just needed a working vehicle, but the rough times I was having, have been slowly improving. So what if this takes me a year or five to complete, there sure are other worse things I could be spending my money on, eh? Jax
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10-10-2009, 04:33 AM	#12
phaderus Registered User Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 27 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: More silly questions from the new guy about 2.8/3.4L swap Quote: Originally Posted by neo71665 Man, simple reading just owns some people. Glad to see that you have never made a ****ing mistake. I admitted I was wrong and moved on. Do you derive pleasure from arrogant statements? Now there is some "simple reading" for you!
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10-10-2009, 12:08 PM	#13
The_Raven Registered User Age: 32 Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,039 Location: The Nest User is: OffLine	Re: More silly questions from the new guy about 2.8/3.4L swap Quote: Originally Posted by Jaxom Now I'm gonna toss another fly in the ointment.... I was just reading on another forum, that it's possible to use a 3500 plentium with the 3400 heads, lim, uim. Only problem is... the 3500 throttle body is wired, no way to rig the TV cable from trans to it. Good news to the rescue!!! I found a guy that rebuilds 700R4/4L60E's. Price difference is only $25, so I might as well go with the 4L60E. More good news...I have a line on some extra work, meaning instead of having to rush out and do stuff on the truck, I can get another vehicle for my DD, and just store the truck and do the swapping and stuff as budget (now larger) permits. Back to the block and rebuilding. Talked a bit about tranny issues, and a bit on ecm's and such. But I'm still wondering when the time comes to take the block in to a shop, what after market parts are suggested that I can upgrade to? FYI, concider this, for me when responding. This is my one and only shot at a project vehicle. I probably won't be doing another...unless I win the lottery or something... Ya never know. So while on one hand I'm "on a budget" in the other hand if it takes a bit more time and investment to tweak a bit more out of this project, I don't mind. Case in point, if I prefer (note I know it's not nessary because that has been explained) wanted to upgrade to an obd 2 and having to replace the entire wiring harness, so be it. Another thing with this, I'm in no rush to get this done. Yeah, there was a point I just needed a working vehicle, but the rough times I was having, have been slowly improving. So what if this takes me a year or five to complete, there sure are other worse things I could be spending my money on, eh? Jax Well, going to a 4L60E won't be any better or worse than using a 700R4, just different. If you want to retro fit it into your truck, cool, we can work with that. Like I've mentioned before I'll be swapping the TH350 to a 4L60E next spring in my grandfather's '71 Chev street rod truck, because it'll have the good low first and over drive, we won't have fluid puking issues when sitting in the garage (Uhg TH350s.....) but mostly because I think it'll get that "WTF? factor" coupled with the late model Vortec 355 and early Corvette Crossfire intake, and quite possibly DIS. I don't consider OBD2 as an "upgrade", it's just more complex for the sake of being more complex. About the only thing you gain with OBD2 is SFI, which amounts to very little improvement over running an OBD1 ECM. In fact my 1973 Datsun, that I am running with a '7749 (OBD1) ECM gets better gas milage than my 1998 Malibu, I drive my Datsun with much more gusto than I do the Malibu. Yes I have tuned the Datsun myself, but I should get way better gas milage with the Malibu, so I don't see OBD2 as an upgrade. I also have much longer cranking time with my Malibu than my Datsun, which I have experianced with many OBD2 vehicles. Now if I was doing what you are doing..... oh wait I basically have and will be again.... , but if I was to use a 4L60E I would use a '7427 ECM found in the '93 to '95 GM trucks, yes they were TBI, but had 4L60E in them. I know you're thinking: "But I'll be using MPFI", yes you will be. The code called $OD that is used in those ECMs has a cool little switch in them that changes the injector control scheme from TBI to MPFI. It also has mechanical/electronic tranny switches, to be used with either manual or non electronic automatics. It's a very versitile ECM, that the only thing it's lacking is some sort of boost control. To control MPFI there is also a change needed to the MEMCAL itself (The part with the EPROM, and CALPAK) to physically change the injector firing scheme as well. More information about these changes can be found in the DIY PROM section on www.thirdgen.org. I would use this ECM well before using OBD2. Also tuning this ECM ('7427) can be done using equipment totalling less than $200 (could be less that $100 depending on where you get certain items from), if you want reall time tuning, which is the only way I do it now, add about $175 for a Moates.net Ostrich 2.0 EPROM emulator. Compare this to the several hundred, to thousands needed for getting into an OBD2 ECM to tune it, because the software requires licences, and keys that companies charge a lot for and doesn't support real time tuning, since the vehcile must be not running when uploading a new cal. OBD1 seems much nicer to me. moates.net does have an emulator for the OBD2 PCM, but I have only seen applcations for LSx engines listed, not sure what it would take to use with other engines. The other way I look at is this, I can swap an OBD1 ECM into most vehicles in a couple days to a week, depending on how much I need to adapt, non GM engines require more adapting. Where as OBD2 would take more time due to how they integrate with just about every other system in the vehicle, through the BCM. So to me, I'd rather use the "older" system that I can swap in quickly, tune qucikly and enjoy my ride, than be the guy that is still working on getting my ride running, due to over complication. This doesn't have to do with needing to rush to get it done, it has to do with putting effort into the areas that will make the biggest difference. There is also conflicting views on whether a FWD PCM that originally had a 4T60E would control a 4L60E. You can use the 3500 UIM on the 3400 lower LIM. This requires a TB adaptor, to use a cable driven TB. WOT (part of 60degreev6.com) sells an adaptor that uses a TB that way too large for the engines. LS1 TB IIRC. Anything over about 60mm is a complete waste, and even the stock 3400 56mm TB might be a tad on the large side IMO. On the Franken60, I started with a 56mm TB, but then swapped to a 52mm TB, since it made more bottem end torque and E.T.s at the track dropped by about 3 tenths by swapping to a smaller TB. The tests were done on the same day, swapped the TB right there in the pits. Intake air velocity has to be paid attention to. A TB is a case were larger isn't always better. You can make your own adaptor from some aluminium using drill bits, files, taps, etc. Mostly for aftermarket engine parts that are easily available are cams. I used a GMPP equivilant of the Crane 260-2. If I was to build an N/A 660, in a similar application to what you are doing I would look at either a Crane 272, or Schnider solid roller conversion cams, since they are geared towards N/A application with their tight LSA. You will need custom length pushrods, especially when using an aftermarket cam in a genI block, with genIII heads and roller rockers.
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10-10-2009, 12:52 PM	#14
neo71665 4x4 v6 blazer Age: 29 Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 5,002 Location: rison arkansas User is: OffLine	Re: More silly questions from the new guy about 2.8/3.4L swap I'm just wondering why you are so bound and set on swapping to OBD2? While on that note why do you think the 460le is better than the 700r4.
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10-11-2009, 05:00 PM	#15
Jaxom Registered User Age: 44 Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 191 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: More silly questions from the new guy about 2.8/3.4L swap That is some excellent information Raven, then you VERY much. I'll stick with the OBD I system then. I have to admit, sometimes doing more research can be confusing to me. Take for instance, the types of injection.(EFI, SFI, MPFI) This caused me even more confusion as which ecm with which version of obd was needed, since gm sometimes overlapped which years used which. Not all that different to the gen 1's where they were either carbed or TBI'd. RE tranny types. I was just looking at which would be the most straight forwear to install. Mind you I've never done this type of thing before, unlike many here that often do these things for a living, or at the very least have had the advantage of being around those that did. I do have to say, the more I learn about this swap, and what it all entails, (above and beyond many of the simplified walk throughs), it's a bit more complex that I orginally thought. And that it won't matter which trans I use, some sort of rigging will need to be done. This leads me to another option that I have not totally ruled out. And that is, when the time comes, just yank the current 2.8L out and rebuilding that and reinstalling it. And just doing some mild upgrades to it (4.3L tbi, w/ ca induction) and what ever other little bits and pieces have been recommended. It has been always my intentions to use this truck as one to haul a boat with and go camping. I don't need all the latest and greatest thing-a-bobs in it, just abit more torque, and definetly better gas milage (still getting around 10mpg's). Doing a 3.4L swap seemed like the ideal way to achieve this. At the very least, just like with the current engine, I could go with a rebuilt 3.4l and keep it tbi'd. Saving me a whole heck alot of installation issues. This is why going with the crate version applealed to me so much. I could litterly drop that right in, re-use the UIM from my 2.8L, that's been bored out to accept the 4.3L TBI. This would connect straight up to the OBD 1 and 700R4 that I currently have now. But as Neo pointed out, this would void the warrenty...
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10-11-2009, 05:19 PM	#16
The_Raven Registered User Age: 32 Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,039 Location: The Nest User is: OffLine	Re: More silly questions from the new guy about 2.8/3.4L swap Yes, keeping the current TBI and retaining the original engine bay setup will be the easiest, even using the 3.4 which will help provide more torque due to the longer stroke and increased displacement. My Franken60, was a 3.2L (bored 2.8 block and 3.1 crank), with the small port 3100 top end and a small turbo had no problem pulling cars around on a car trailer. My next build will be similar but increasing the displacement a little more to 3.4L and using a large port top end, with twin T25 turbos. Even if I nixed the turbos I know it could work well pulling a small boat around. Which ever way you go, there is information on how to go about it.
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10-11-2009, 05:59 PM	#17
Jaxom Registered User Age: 44 Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 191 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: More silly questions from the new guy about 2.8/3.4L swap I've learned alot in this thread. I think for now my best bet is to just do a normal 2.8L modify...after replacing the trans. Get my body work done, perhaps do headers/hi flow muffler system. 124K miles isn't all that bad on a 2.8L. Especially since I know better on taking care of it and doing regular maintenance. When the time comes... A "mild" 3.4L hybred maybe my personal best option to go with. That being keeping most things stock. Swapping out fan, water pump, power steering for electric units, get some after pully set. Ya know...all those little tweeks GM should have done orginally! Thanks Raven, Neo...for bearing with my newbie questions. Jax
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