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New timing chain without tensioner?

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Old 10-13-2012, 07:47 PM   #51
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Re: New timing chain without tensioner?

And it took them this long to make a shorter, stronger chain :P

One would have to ask why GM didnt just do that in the first place...

Im interested though. Id like to see how they perform, but id be terrified to risk snapping one. I suppose since some cars ran on a BELT and countless other models ran without a tensioner it isnt that big of a deal...but like I said, I wonder why it took so many years to do and why GM didnt do it in the first place.

Also, given the Cloyes Tensioner I bought a while back lasted about 500 miles Im not exactly confident in their product quality. They do get good reviews on other vehicles though.

Would love to see some reviews after a few thousand hard miles have been put on one.
Old 10-14-2012, 12:45 PM   #52
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Re: New timing chain- double check your parts.

I was replacing the timing chain/gear set in my son's 1987 S10 Blazer 4x4 w/2.8L, ordering the Cloyes set from a popular online source with the gaskets. In comparing the two sets laying flat on the table, they appeared to be correct. Anyone would not normally notice any abnormal differences and install the new set as-is. But through my experience with the occasional mis-labled or mis-boxed part, I always compare the gears over each other to confirm the chain link count, tooth count, diameters and alignment.

In this case, for comparison, when I slid both of the bottom drive gears (loosely) back onto the crankshaft, that's when things did not match up.

It had apparently been mis-machined and the teeth did not align with the old gear. The replacement gear was off a couple degrees or so. I called the online source and sent them photos. They were very grateful in letting them know of this defect and said they would try to check their existing stock for others like it and promptly refunded my money.

I purchased another set from my local parts store and compared the two on the crank and they matched exactly. Both sets had the S-511 stamped on the bottom gear, but the one gear must've been machined on a Monday morning. I contacted Cloyes and they were very appreciative as well for pointing this out.

So always double-check your parts!!
Old 10-14-2012, 07:20 PM   #53
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Re: New timing chain without tensioner?

Quote: Originally Posted by agent00kevin
And it took them this long to make a shorter, stronger chain :P

One would have to ask why GM didnt just do that in the first place...

.....
$$$$$$

Anything not standard dimensions, off the shelf costs more. The 2.2 is a base engine, manufactured in the millions, they're not looking for anything but lowest cost. But you'd think eliminating the tensioner would cover the cost difference??
Old 10-15-2012, 05:35 PM   #54
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Re: New timing chain without tensioner?

at first i wasnt convinced but the more i read on the more i believe it will work great. i know i have 150k miles on my stock chain and should probably change soon but my truck is running great right now so i havent really thought about changing the timing change.
Old 10-15-2012, 09:04 PM   #55
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Re: New timing chain without tensioner?

my question is it did say it would advance timing a lil bit. Would it be enough to where a computer tune would be needed or is it so minuscule it wouldn't matter? I mean if its available for the average joe to put in as a replacement part I'm sure it's not, just a thought.
Old 10-16-2012, 11:58 PM   #56
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Re: New timing chain without tensioner?

i dont see how it would advance timing, even if the chain was shorter, the crank/cam move at the same speed because they rotate at a fixed speed along the chain. changing the length has no effect besides how long it takes the chain to rotate 1 revolution.
Old 10-17-2012, 06:58 AM   #57
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I took some measurements of the crank and cam gear last night. Ill post results when i have some time here closer to the weekend.
Old 10-17-2012, 07:29 PM   #58
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Re: New timing chain without tensioner?

I installed this setup on my truck last week and i have put 300 miles on it and starting to tick . It sounds like its coming from the timing cover. Does anybody know wat it could be? I replaced the oil orifce amd soaked the chain overnight in oil. Any ideas?
Old 10-17-2012, 08:37 PM   #59
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Re: New timing chain without tensioner?

Its only at idle and off idle but do not hear it about 2000 rpms didn't hear anything before just changed the gears bc had the front cover off to fix oil leak
Old 10-19-2012, 04:14 PM   #60
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Re: New timing chain without tensioner?

i called Cloyes and they bascially said that it had to be something i had i done and theres no way its installed correctly . im never buying one of there products again very disappionted
Old 10-20-2012, 03:19 PM   #61
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Re: New timing chain without tensioner?

i took it apart this morning and and chain had alot of slack in it and it wasnt in there when i first installed it i cannot believe how much it was stretched in the few miles i had it on there. heres some pics .
Attached Thumbnails
New timing chain without tensioner?-2012-10-20_10-29-32_369.jpg   New timing chain without tensioner?-2012-10-20_10-29-38_44.jpg  
Old 10-20-2012, 03:39 PM   #62
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Re: New timing chain without tensioner?

doah.............
Old 10-20-2012, 04:16 PM   #63
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Re: New timing chain without tensioner?

Hahahaha.
Old 10-20-2012, 05:47 PM   #64
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Re: New timing chain without tensioner?

Oh, boy ! Going with the GM chain and tensioner.
Old 10-20-2012, 07:01 PM   #65
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Re: New timing chain without tensioner?

I always wonder when people think they are smarter than the people that designed the vehicle in the first place....
Old 10-21-2012, 12:07 PM   #66
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Re: New timing chain without tensioner?

So if it is their claim he installed it wrong what could he have done to cause stretch?
Old 10-21-2012, 02:28 PM   #67
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Re: New timing chain without tensioner?

Quote: Originally Posted by Tag
So if it is their claim he installed it wrong what could he have done to cause stretch?
That's what chains do...
Old 10-21-2012, 02:39 PM   #68
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Re: New timing chain without tensioner?

Quote: Originally Posted by Tag
So if it is their claim he installed it wrong what could he have done to cause stretch?
nothing .....thats there fail safe "it's your fault , not OUR's.......
Old 10-21-2012, 04:30 PM   #69
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Re: New timing chain without tensioner?

And carquest says they cant do anything cause its special order
Old 10-21-2012, 04:32 PM   #70
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Re: New timing chain without tensioner?

It seems that the timing set will continue to be a weak point in the 2.2. I really would have liked to have seen Cloyes come through on this, but I'm skeptical at this point.

For that chain to have stretched that amount in just 300 miles, there must have been some serious forces on that chain. What sort of force could cause a chain to stretch that fast? I don't claim to know the answer in this case but I have a guess. If the chain were to go into what is called harmonic resonance, it will massively amplify the forces on that chain and very easily make it stretch. If one were to look at the OEM design, you will see that both chain segments between the gears have a plastic guide running on it. One side also acts as a tensioner, but still both sides have a plastic guide that will dampen vibration. With the Cloyes design, those dampeners are gone. Cloyes claims that they control vibration or oscillation by carefully controlling the length of the chain to minimize slack. As with any mechanical vibration, its vibration intensity is frequency dependent, in other words, the vibration intensity will vary depending on the speed of the components involved. We have all seen when a heat shield for example will rattle like crazy at just the right engine rpm (the heat shield's resonant frequency) and be otherwise quiet at other rpms. So why did the testing in the circle track that Cloyes did not see this problem? Who knows, but it is very possible that running an engine at a constant 6K+ is not the same as an engine at normal rpms of 2-3K. While one might think that the high rpm use would put more stress on the parts, this might not be the case depending on the resonant frequency of the system.

I wonder if Cloyes performed a test on this timing set on a real 2.2 that measured the mechanical oscillations through the entire rpm range? If all they did was give the new chain to some racers and extrapolate good results there into success on the street, this could be a big mistake. Hey, I'm guessing about what exactly is going on with these parts, but at this point, I'm going to stay will the OEM design until and unless I see better evidence from Cloyes that their design is perfected. I'd love to see Cloyes build a setup with a window in the cover to observe the chain through the rpm range with a high speed camera. I'm not holding my breath.
Old 10-21-2012, 11:28 PM   #71
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Re: New timing chain without tensioner?

Quote: Originally Posted by jc01
i took it apart this morning and and chain had alot of slack in it and it wasnt in there when i first installed it i cannot believe how much it was stretched in the few miles i had it on there. heres some pics .
That's a good bit of slack but it doesn't look too bad... I don't know, maybe it's just hard to see in the pictures but the 4.3L engines have a good bit of slack in them too even when properly installed and properly functioning. The slack would only be a problem if it is in fact the cause of the ticking, if it is at risk of jumping time, or if it caused the timing to be so far off that the truck has poor performance.

Was the chain able to hit the timing cover or block or anything else that would make the ticking sound? Have you had that block align honed by any chance?
Old 10-21-2012, 11:53 PM   #72
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See id like to put mine in too but am reluctant to do so now. I checked the size of the gears and there is sooo minimal difference in size it could be just normal wear. I dont think there has been enough engineering done or real life testing to prove this setup will work. We need to all stay diplomatic about this. We test it and submit our results as a group they will be forced to re engineer this design and make the necessary changes.
Old 10-22-2012, 04:40 AM   #73
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Re: New timing chain without tensioner?

No it hasn't the truck had no sounds before the timing chain amd 4.3 are different then there 2.2. Ik the truck had a bad low rpm misses that wasnt there before and hopefully with the old setup it will be gone and we shouldn't have to do this theres the ones that should have tested there product before they started selling.
Old 10-22-2012, 05:42 AM   #74
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Thats the unfortunate thing, there not going to spend a lot of money testing it. Boeing will sell an airliner with a known fault in design that could be a major saftey hazard. What makes you think cloyes is any better. Thing is there is nothing better than real world testing. I still want to install it and see what my results are. I like the idea of a window to see whats going on in there but it would just get covered in oil.
Old 10-22-2012, 11:31 AM   #75
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Re: New timing chain without tensioner?

I really think if they want to go tensioner-guide free they should have used a hi-vo chain

Old 10-22-2012, 02:04 PM   #76
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Re: New timing chain without tensioner?

I put the truck back together today some how it was two notch's off idk if it slipped or it moved like installing it but im pretty sure it didnt cause i watched it carefully as i installed it so idk wat happened
Old 10-22-2012, 03:33 PM   #77
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Re: New timing chain without tensioner?

Quote: Originally Posted by jc01
I put the truck back together today some how it was two notch's off idk if it slipped or it moved like installing it but im pretty sure it didnt cause i watched it carefully as i installed it so idk wat happened
regardless of how careful you were when you installed it , did you verify that everything was lined up right -before you put the cover on?
Old 10-22-2012, 03:46 PM   #78
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Re: New timing chain without tensioner?

I always turn them over two revolutions and recheck before I button them up.
I thought about cutting a tensioner apart and just using the guide.
Old 10-22-2012, 03:47 PM   #79
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Re: New timing chain without tensioner?

Im think but not a 100 percent but ik it runs alot better now amd no sounds coming from the timing cover any more
Old 10-22-2012, 04:25 PM   #80
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Re: New timing chain without tensioner?

Are you sure you didn't install it wrong in the first place?
Old 10-22-2012, 06:17 PM   #81
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Re: New timing chain without tensioner?

Quote: Originally Posted by xtrememeasures10
Thats the unfortunate thing, there not going to spend a lot of money testing it. Boeing will sell an airliner with a known fault in design that could be a major saftey hazard. What makes you think cloyes is any better. Thing is there is nothing better than real world testing. I still want to install it and see what my results are. I like the idea of a window to see whats going on in there but it would just get covered in oil.
LOL, you have no idea how much testing is done with a new aircraft design before the FAA will even allow it in the air. Cloyes doesn't have to prove anything even to the DOT, there is no comparison. Good to know what happens with this chain after a few hundred miles tho, I'll be sticking with the GM parts.
Old 10-22-2012, 08:26 PM   #82
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Re: New timing chain without tensioner?

^that
Old 10-22-2012, 09:11 PM   #83
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Quote: Originally Posted by SH-60B
LOL, you have no idea how much testing is done with a new aircraft design before the FAA will even allow it in the air. Cloyes doesn't have to prove anything even to the DOT, there is no comparison. Good to know what happens with this chain after a few hundred miles tho, I'll be sticking with the GM parts.
Actually i do. Being in the industry for over 8 years now. Being an A&P ( airframe and powerplant) mechanic, IA (inspection authorization) and having my FCC license. I work on the toys of the richest people in the world and help install, design and modify things you only dream about installing in your truck or house. There is a lot of R&D done on aircraft before the engineering drawings are even on paper, let alone an actual model built. However there are many faults that are known about once being built that are ignored. Just like any other industry. Dont begin to think any one industry is perfect.

Either way a company like cloyes goes through a good amount of R&D. Nothing compaired to an aircraft manufacturer but bottom line they dont want to build a product that has a high rate of failure. They will accept a small rate of failure. They all make decisions that sacrifice quality as an end result to make a profit. Whether they admit it or not.
Old 10-22-2012, 09:55 PM   #84
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Re: New timing chain without tensioner?

Quote: Originally Posted by jc01
Im think but not a 100 percent but ik it runs alot better now amd no sounds coming from the timing cover any more
I'm confused... you put the stock stuff back in and it was 2 teeth off or when you took the tensionless stuff out it was 2 teeth off???
Old 10-22-2012, 10:05 PM   #85
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Re: New timing chain without tensioner?

I put the stock stuff back and decied to check the timing and it was 2 off i didnt check it before i took the tensionless setup off
Old 10-22-2012, 11:47 PM   #86
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Re: New timing chain without tensioner?

Without the tensioner how did you check the timing when you installed it?
Old 10-23-2012, 04:25 AM   #87
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Re: New timing chain without tensioner?

Quote: Originally Posted by xtrememeasures10
Actually i do. Being in the industry for over 8 years now. Being an A&P ( airframe and powerplant) mechanic, IA (inspection authorization) and having my FCC license. I work on the toys of the richest people in the world and help install, design and modify things you only dream about installing in your truck or house. There is a lot of R&D done on aircraft before the engineering drawings are even on paper, let alone an actual model built. However there are many faults that are known about once being built that are ignored. Just like any other industry. Dont begin to think any one industry is perfect.

Either way a company like cloyes goes through a good amount of R&D. Nothing compaired to an aircraft manufacturer but bottom line they dont want to build a product that has a high rate of failure. They will accept a small rate of failure. They all make decisions that sacrifice quality as an end result to make a profit. Whether they admit it or not.
I've been building jet engines and aircraft for 35 years between Pratt & Whitney and Sikorsky Aircraft, I wouldn't dream of installing anything from there into my truck, why would I? I've worked closely with production and design engineers in both companies to work out manufacturing kinks, there really aren't any design flaws in our products, just people who don't know how manufacture a component.

Cloyes might as well be making Big Macs, all they have to do is please a customer.
Old 10-23-2012, 06:16 AM   #88
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Re: New timing chain without tensioner?

Not to cause an arguement here, but two things come to mind.

First, I've seen a lot more play in timing chains than is displayed in the picture above, without causing any problems at all! That much play equals about a quarter of a degree of timing, or less.

Second, there's not enough "flex" showing on that chain to hit anywhere on the block? Is there anything inside the cover that might have been in the way??

I've got 135,000 miles on my 96 tutu. Origional chain is in there. I have the same noise at and just off idle that most everyone else has. I wonder how much longer I can ignor the noise while knowing what is causing it, but also know I don't dog it when driving.

I'm thinking I still just might try this new chain, even after reading here and realizing I might have to do it again in a week. (I drive about 375 miles a week, back and forth to work. Mostly highway.)

Last edited by mcdadcop; 10-23-2012 at 06:17 AM. Reason: My spelling stinks tonight.
Old 10-31-2012, 03:45 PM   #89
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Re: New timing chain without tensioner?

Well I just got my truck back from the shop (headgasket) and now it is throwing the code P0342. I used my scan tool to get rid of the code and it still comes back on. Going to check and see if the wires are loose.
Old 10-31-2012, 08:36 PM   #90
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Re: New timing chain without tensioner? Huh?

Guys, tell me what I am failing to understand, please. My experience with timing chains and gears is only with 4.3's and small block Chevy V8 engines.
They never had any tensioners on them, just 2 gears and the chain.
And, the pics y'all posted from the vendors here, only have a chain and 2 gears, nothing else. So, I sure don't see any tensioner, such as a timing belt would have.
I would love to understand what tensioner you are talking about. It has been my experience that chains lasted 150,000 miles or so.

Thanks.
Old 10-31-2012, 09:10 PM   #91
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Re: New timing chain without tensioner?

Here you go

http://www.jasperengines.com/pdf/GM2.2TimingTB.pdf
Old 01-28-2013, 07:11 PM   #92
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Re: New timing chain without tensioner?

Picked up my upgraded cloyes chain without the tensioner. I'll post up my results in a few days. Had pretty noticeable "ticking" when cold.
Old 01-28-2013, 07:45 PM   #93
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Re: New timing chain without tensioner?

Old 01-31-2013, 08:00 PM   #94
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Re: New timing chain without tensioner?

Got her done finally. Ticking/knocking is noticeably reduced @ cold temps (below 30 here currently). Going to try different oil soon and see if it helps with the cold tick (suspecting lifters are the culprit). Noticeably more low end power. Daily driving is much nicer. Installed like a normal timing chain on every other cam in block engine. Little bit of slack on the non-tension side.

The old chain and tensioner was actually in really good shape for 130K miles. I was almost hesitant to continue but I did anyway. There were no instructions on what to do with the old tensioner bolts so I installed them back in the block with a dab of thread lock.

So far so good. 4 cold starts and probably less than 20 miles so far. I live very close to my work.
Old 02-05-2013, 07:36 PM   #95
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Re: New timing chain without tensioner?

Update! CLOYES IS JUNK!!!!!!!! Didnt even make it a few days and I had a strange belt noise... Checked it tonight since its above 20. Removed the serpentine belt to verify the noise I suddenly had. Sure enough with belt off timing chain sounds like its coming through the timing cover.

I'm calling cloyes tomorrow.
Old 02-06-2013, 11:40 PM   #96
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Re: New timing chain without tensioner?

Man that totally sucks! I was trying to remain optimistic about this non-tension chain but it seems like no one has had luck with it... Replacing a timing chain is not only very time consuming but it will leave you stranded if it fails, not something you want to chance it with. Let us know what Cloyes says if they even stand behind their product.
Old 02-08-2013, 02:01 AM   #97
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Re: New timing chain without tensioner?

So the few people that have installed these are having trouble nearly instantly.

Im not pointing fingers, but whos fault is it? The installer, or the manufacturer??

Keep us updated.
Old 02-08-2013, 11:19 AM   #98
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Re: New timing chain without tensioner?

if anything this cloyes set-up is easier to install than stock, having read how they tested this I'm not surprised.

The stock one goes well over 100K I don't know why people see that as a defect....
Old 02-08-2013, 05:27 PM   #99
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Re: New timing chain without tensioner?

I'm going to take it apart over the weekend. I'll take pics and start a new thread. I havent had time to contact cloyes, been busy with work.
Old 02-22-2013, 01:33 AM   #100
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Re: New timing chain without tensioner?

Those Cloyes guys really know how to lay "it" on Thick.

What a bunch of B.S.

The GM chain was fine, great even. The Cloyes tensioner was Crap.

That is the whole story.
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