missing

gregsz-28 · 10-20-2009, 06:35 PM

Today when I was driving my truck, when I accelerated from a stop sign, it felt like it had no power (I mean less than the usual...) and the SES light came on. When I slowed down 1/2 a mile later to turn, the light went off, and didn't come back on. It is now obviously missing a lot. Any advice?

lesterl · 10-20-2009, 08:26 PM

What was the code that was stored? Short the upper 2 right holes in the connector under the column with a paper clip, turn igntion on (dont start).

Count flashes of SES, will flash 1x, pause, 2x, pause, will repeat pattern 2x more (code 12 3x), next sequence of flashes will be the next code for a total of 3x then on to the next one, the series of codes will end in code 12 again.

FlipS10er · 10-21-2009, 11:23 AM

This might sound uninformed guys, but for curiosity sake .. what is the SES light if we are talking first gen ?

FlipS10er · 10-21-2009, 11:24 AM

Haha sorry guys, it is early and im not thinking, service engine soon ... makes sense now LOL

BlueS15 · 10-21-2009, 02:05 PM

ten bucks says its running lean haha

gregsz-28 · 10-21-2009, 03:06 PM

Code 32

gregsz-28 · 10-21-2009, 03:18 PM

A search has revealed to me that code 32 means the problem is EGR related. Is this something that is commonly fixed with a new EGR valve?

Holy SH!T! $75 for a new EGR valve! Very good thing I don't have an auto trans.

lesterl · 10-21-2009, 10:50 PM

Greg, methinks you probably got the #'s backwards, IIRC the Auto is $75, the Manual is $120.......

Might pull the EGR and clean the carbon out of it, that may be all it needs or possibly an O2 sensor.

gregsz-28 · 10-22-2009, 12:32 AM

Napa has the manual one at $75 and the auto one at $154.

I'll try both of those tomorrow, just hope I don't have to replace the EGR valve. Is there a way to test it?

Steady Eddie · 10-22-2009, 10:38 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by gregsz-28

Napa has the manual one at $75 and the auto one at $154.

I'll try both of those tomorrow, just hope I don't have to replace the EGR valve. Is there a way to test it?

======================
Do not spend the bucks yet for a new EGR valve...

Our "window" into the inner workings of the Iron Duke is the SES light..but the system is fairly primitive, and it only shows you approximately what is wrong.

The code that you got, signifies a "problem" in the entire EGR valve "system"...not necessarily the EGR valve itself..chances are good that your valve is carboned up with black bear shit carbon from the exhaust gases that pass through it.

But, it is operated by vacuum, and that means you must check the vacuum lines and the EGR solenoid valve, which pulses a vacuum to the EGR valve, to operate it.

If you have to buy a NEW EGR valve, ONLY buy an OEM AC-Delco EGR valve..the after market ones are junk..they have weak "hold-close" springs..

About testing it: I have the GM Service Manual and IT doesn't even say *how* to test it. It takes the easy way out and advises Mr. Goodwrench to simply replace the EGR valve, IF he suspects it is an issue..

I wonder just how many
EGR valves have been changed out for no reason??

gregsz-28 · 10-22-2009, 03:47 PM

Is there a way I can test the EGR solenoid valve?

Steady Eddie · 10-22-2009, 07:08 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by gregsz-28

Is there a way I can test the EGR solenoid valve?

========================
Its' "normal" state is OFF, and with the thing electrically disconnected, it (I think) should not flow any air blown through it. I do not know if the PCM shoots a low voltage signal (like 5 volts DC) to it, to operate it, or, if it requires a full 12 volts to cycle it on. In any case, be sure of its' voltage requirement BEFORE you pork the voltage to it...

gregsz-28 · 10-22-2009, 10:46 PM

Today I replaced the O2 sensor and cleaned the EGR valve, without improvement. I'll check the EGR control solenoid tomorrow. Under what conditions should there be vacuum on the EGR valve side of it?

***J_SIN*** · 10-22-2009, 11:22 PM

its a long shot but my 86 2.5 acted just like that and I changed a TON of parts before finally doing the plug wires, which was the real issue. I think they're only like 16 bucks so it wouldn't cost much to try that and it never hurts to have new wires anyways if you haven't replaced yours recently. I know that doesn't match what your SES codes are giving you but those codes can sometimes make trouble shooting far more difficult by misleading you IMO.

my truck would take off like it was running on two cylinders then suddenly kick in and drive like it should. I dont think it ever was an issue at cruising speeds, mostly just did it at random times when accelerating, then it got progressively worse over time.

gregsz-28 · 10-23-2009, 12:49 AM

I haven't had the truck even two weeks, so I don't know how old the plug wires are, but they don't look to be more than a few years old, and in good condition. Just dirty. Today I noticed my upper radiator hose is leaking, and it looks to be the original one!

***J_SIN*** · 10-23-2009, 01:37 AM

if I were you I'd throw a few bucks into a tune up to start with. should be able to do the cap, rotor, plugs and wires for under 50 bucks.

dimerunner88 · 10-23-2009, 01:45 AM

i agree with j_sin, a full tune-up can only help

gregsz-28 · 10-23-2009, 01:52 AM

What I have done to the truck so far is:
Changed oil and filter
Changed coolant
Replaced PCV valve grommets
Replaced O2 sensor
Replaced thermostat
Replaced air filter
Replaced spark plugs
And this: http://www.s10forum.com/forum/f62/ps...1/#post6578098
Maybe some other stuff I'm forgetting.

The previous owner said he installed a new cap and rotor (I can't verify what he said, but the cap externally looks new) and a new water pump (which looks new, it isn't rusty yet). There is no cat, but a pipe welded in its place. I don't plan to replace it unless we start having inspections here.

Steady Eddie · 10-23-2009, 02:28 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by gregsz-28

....Under what conditions should there be vacuum on the EGR valve side of it?

========================
greg--

I don't know..the Factory Service Manual doesn't say..but I AM 100% sure how the EGR valve is "tested" by the brainbox..

When the EGR opens, the O2 sensor "sees" a lean-out condition, which tells the PCM EGR valve monitor that the valve has opened. This is triggered by a vacuum pulse signal from the EGR solenoid valve. "When" this happens is important. Because the exhaust gases flow into the intake manifold, it causes a stumble, a leaning out. It happens after a sustained speed of 40-45 MPH, when a stumble is not so noticeable...then, the solenoid valve is commanded to close the EGR valve, and, once again, the O2 sensor now sees a richer fuel/air mix. If anything happens, the SES light comes on. If the EGR valve is sticking a bit on closing, but DOES finally shut, then the SES light merely flashes on and soon goes off.

gregsz-28 · 10-23-2009, 02:55 AM

That sounds pretty much like what happened to me. Before I stopped at the stop sign, (the one I accelerated from when the SES light came on) I was driving on a 40 mph road (the police station is on that road, so I was doing 40-42 mph).
I'll hook a vacuum gauge up to the EGR valve solenoid tomorrow as soon as I start the truck and leave it on there for a while, and if I see full vacuum at some point, I'll order up a delco EGR valve.

gregsz-28 · 10-23-2009, 05:09 PM

First I hooked my vacuum gauge up to manifold vacuum, and it made about 19 in. Hg. Then, I removed the line from the throttle body to the EGR solenoid valve, and put the vacuum gauge on the throttle body, and by increasing RPM (not sure how much, no tach), I was able to get it to almost full manifold vacuum. I had the same results when I connected the vacuum gauge to the other side of the EGR solenoid valve, when it was plugged in. When it wasn't plugged in, there was no vacuum there, under any throttle position.
All of this was done at hot idle. During these tests, the engine always seemed to act the same, running like crap.
To me, this indicates that the EGR solenoid valve is not the problem.
I'll order a new Delco EGR valve today.

lesterl · 10-23-2009, 08:33 PM

I would check the IAT temperature with it running like crap, if the intake temp is high (then you probably have an open EGR flow into the intake. The EGR should only open at cruising speeds so the ECM can lean out the mix, it should NOT be open at idle.

Has this truck been sitting for a while?

gregsz-28 · 10-23-2009, 08:52 PM

What is the IAT, and how do I check its temp?
As my vacuum test showed, there is only vacuum to the EGR when the throttle blade is opened, so wouldn't that mean the EGR valve couldn't open at idle?

gregsz-28 · 10-23-2009, 09:16 PM

Can someone post a pic of how the EGR solenoid valve mounts? I can't seem to figure it out just looking at it...

lesterl · 10-23-2009, 11:30 PM

What year is your truck? 85/86 use ported TBI vacume and dont have a modulator solenoid.

IAT is right behind the alternator in the top of the intake. It (when disconnected) will read a resistance which can be matched to that in my signature.

dimerunner88 · 10-23-2009, 11:51 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by gregsz-28

Can someone post a pic of how the EGR solenoid valve mounts? I can't seem to figure it out just looking at it...

its two bolts under the diaphragm

gregsz-28 · 10-24-2009, 01:22 AM

It's an '89, and it uses TBI vacuum, but the vacuum line still doesn't go straight from the throttle body to the EGR valve. I'll try to remember to post a pic of the vacuum port it uses tomorrow to clear up any confusion.

gregsz-28 · 10-24-2009, 01:24 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by dimerunner88

its two bolts under the diaphragm

lol yeah I know that, but I mean the thing in the middle of the vacuum line to the EGR valve, that has an electrical connector on it.

This thing:
http://www.autozone.com/autozone/cat...S9/3/image/%5D

Steady Eddie · 10-24-2009, 02:04 AM

greg--

Yep--that is the EGR valve operating solenoid, just like the one I changed on my '89 S10.

The little foam cover stays on the tube shown, it is a filter for the exhaust port on the valve. It is also the first thing that "goes away" leaving nothing but an open tubing port, which throws many S10 owners for a loop, because they (wrongly) figure a tube must go on it...

Shaddix · 10-24-2009, 12:59 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by gregsz-28

First I hooked my vacuum gauge up to manifold vacuum, and it made about 19 in. Hg. Then, I removed the line from the throttle body to the EGR solenoid valve, and put the vacuum gauge on the throttle body, and by increasing RPM (not sure how much, no tach), I was able to get it to almost full manifold vacuum. I had the same results when I connected the vacuum gauge to the other side of the EGR solenoid valve, when it was plugged in. When it wasn't plugged in, there was no vacuum there, under any throttle position.
All of this was done at hot idle. During these tests, the engine always seemed to act the same, running like crap.
To me, this indicates that the EGR solenoid valve is not the problem.
I'll order a new Delco EGR valve today.

I am having this EXACT SAME PROBLEM!!! 100% to a tee! EGR solenoid is providing vacuum at all times when its plugged in just like yours. No vacuum when unplugged. How is this possible when the EGR valve isnt being used at idle?!? It should have NO vacuum to EGR until the ECU calls for it, not vacuum all the time at the solenoid port! If my valve stayed shut until I was actually driving the thing, I bet mine would run perfect, but it gets opened at all times through the solenoid! [Solenoid is brand new]

When it goes back to idle and no manifold vacuum is present, the valve shuts all the way and stops the EGR leaking into intake, making it idle ok.

If the solenoid is open at all times, why would we need it. Why not just run a line from the vacuum port straight to the valve if it was suposed to work like this? Because something is not working right!!! This makes me think the EGR valve might be OK and I wonder if the ECU is malfunctioning now???

gregsz-28 · 10-24-2009, 06:29 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Steady Eddie

greg--

Yep--that is the EGR valve operating solenoid, just like the one I changed on my '89 S10.

The little foam cover stays on the tube shown, it is a filter for the exhaust port on the valve. It is also the first thing that "goes away" leaving nothing but an open tubing port, which throws many S10 owners for a loop, because they (wrongly) figure a tube must go on it...

I don't understand. What's a filter for what exhaust port?

My EGR valve solenoid has the open port on it, but I knew it was supposed to be that way by looking at the sticker on my fan shroud.

RockAuto said my new Delco EGR valve won't ship until October 30, so I probably won't get it until the Monday after that.

Shaddix · 10-24-2009, 06:51 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by gregsz-28

I don't understand. What's a filter for what exhaust port?

My EGR valve solenoid has the open port on it, but I knew it was supposed to be that way by looking at the sticker on my fan shroud.

RockAuto said my new Delco EGR valve won't ship until October 30, so I probably won't get it until the Monday after that.

The filter he is speaking of is on the EGR solenoid itself. It can break off and look like an open vacuum port. It stumped me till I found the forums.

lesterl · 10-24-2009, 11:27 PM

You may have the line to the EGR hooked up to the Vent port not the EGR Port if your Filter is missing off the solenoid then maybe it got mixed up (is easy to do.)

gregsz-28 · 10-24-2009, 11:29 PM

Anyways, can someone post a pic of how the EGR solenoid valve mounts? Right how mine is just hanging by the vacuum lines.

gregsz-28 · 10-24-2009, 11:32 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by lesterl

You may have the line to the EGR hooked up to the Vent port not the EGR Port if your Filter is missing off the solenoid then maybe it got mixed up (is easy to do.)

No, I don't think so, the one the EGR valve is hooked up to has vacuum to it. I didn't test the other one, but I doubt it does, because if both had vacuum to them, then one of them would just be a vacuum leak.

Edit: BTW, the truck might have sat for a while before I got, the tabs that were on it expired in May. I haven't had it even to weeks yet.

lesterl · 10-24-2009, 11:55 PM

I have seen the lines reversed, and yes it is designed to flow vacume controlled one way only, the other could pose an issue if hooked up wrong, just an idea.

Have you reset the ECM? Have you reseated the PROM? Used a NOID light on the connector for the solenoid (may be 5vdc operation, may be 12v IDK)?

The Solenoid should have a metal bracket bent and there is a bolt that goes into the top of the intake behind the alternator on a late 80's early 90's S10 2.5l.

gregsz-28 · 10-25-2009, 02:47 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by lesterl

I have seen the lines reversed, and yes it is designed to flow vacume controlled one way only, the other could pose an issue if hooked up wrong, just an idea.

Have you reset the ECM? Have you reseated the PROM? Used a NOID light on the connector for the solenoid (may be 5vdc operation, may be 12v IDK)?

The Solenoid should have a metal bracket bent and there is a bolt that goes into the top of the intake behind the alternator on a late 80's early 90's S10 2.5l.

Yes I did reset the ECM, after I changed the O2 sensor and cleaned the EGR valve. I checked it later and there was no code, only 12.

I have no clue what you mean by 'reseated the PROM', or what a NOID light is.

The metal bracket is on the intake, i just don't see how the control solenoid mounts to it. I'll just try to remember to look at one at the JY tomorrow. I have many parts to get for this truck.

When talking to me about things like PROMs and NOID lights, act like your talking to a 4-year old. The only vehicles I have owned before this truck are a '72 Pontiac and a '85 Camaro (Which I promptly removed all emissions and CC stuff from), so I really don't know anything about ECMs or EGRs or PROMs and NOID lights.

lesterl · 10-25-2009, 03:09 PM

Ok, the Solenoid should have a couple opposing tabs to slide down over the metal bracket IIRC.

The ECM uses a Computer PROM chip to hold the programming for operation of the whole system. The PROM will be under a 1"X3" aluminum pannel on the ECM, sometimes they come loose and you get erratic/ intermittent operation issues, always a good idea to reseat connectors and PROM chips, all you have to do is remove the 2 screws on the outside of the ECM on the PROM cover and use your thumb and gently push in on the chip, if it is loose it will creak and snap in place, otherwise it will feel pretty solid.

A NOID light is just a lightbulb in a plug base for a specific device, i.e. an injector noid light will have a connector identical to the fuel injector so you can plug it in place of the injector and it will flash every time the injector or device is fired. A high speed firing of the device will usually not show up as a flash, but rather a steady/ uneasy solid light.

Good luck!

gregsz-28 · 10-25-2009, 05:10 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by lesterl

Ok, the Solenoid should have a couple opposing tabs to slide down over the metal bracket IIRC.

The ECM uses a Computer PROM chip to hold the programming for operation of the whole system. The PROM will be under a 1"X3" aluminum pannel on the ECM, sometimes they come loose and you get erratic/ intermittent operation issues, always a good idea to reseat connectors and PROM chips, all you have to do is remove the 2 screws on the outside of the ECM on the PROM cover and use your thumb and gently push in on the chip, if it is loose it will creak and snap in place, otherwise it will feel pretty solid.

A NOID light is just a lightbulb in a plug base for a specific device, i.e. an injector noid light will have a connector identical to the fuel injector so you can plug it in place of the injector and it will flash every time the injector or device is fired. A high speed firing of the device will usually not show up as a flash, but rather a steady/ uneasy solid light.

Good luck!

Yeah, my EGR solenoid has the opposing brackets, they just aren't far enough apart to fit over the metal bracket. There is another piece screwed to the bracket on the intake...

Anyways, you know anwhere that I can get this noid light? and does noid stand for something, as in N-O-I-D or is it its own word, as in noid?

Is the ECM under the passenger side dash (where it was on my Camaro) or elsewhere? I'll play with the PROM and and see if that makes a difference.

Too bad I have to wait so long for my EGR valve to come, to find out if it is the problem, but I couldn't find it in any local auto parts stores, (basically just Napa).

Steady Eddie · 10-25-2009, 08:29 PM

greg--

You really need to arm yourself with a good Shop Manual, and read it and study it.

I am weird enough to actually read my Genuine GM S10 Service Manual while sitting on the john.

They say that knowledge is power, right???

In the meantime, look at the Iron Dukes in the wrecking yard, to see how that EGR solenoid is mounted. Your engine may be missing a piece of the mount, itself.

lesterl · 10-25-2009, 11:01 PM

Or he may have a solenoid off a Vin R or something.....

NOID light is a Noid light, might get a 194 lamp out of your front turn marker and use it (can bend the wires out and stick it in the socket.)

gregsz-28 · 10-26-2009, 03:37 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by Steady Eddie

greg--

You really need to arm yourself with a good Shop Manual, and read it and study it.

I am weird enough to actually read my Genuine GM S10 Service Manual while sitting on the john.

They say that knowledge is power, right???

In the meantime, look at the Iron Dukes in the wrecking yard, to see how that EGR solenoid is mounted. Your engine may be missing a piece of the mount, itself.

Yeah I love the factory service manuals, I have three for third gen Camaros.

I do plan to get a factory service manual for my truck, but I'm waiting for one to show up as an auction style listing on ebay, opposed to buy-it-now.

Or, if I can find someone else trying to get rid of one... BTW I have an '89 S15...

gregsz-28 · 10-26-2009, 03:42 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by lesterl

Or he may have a solenoid off a Vin R or something.....

NOID light is a Noid light, might get a 194 lamp out of your front turn marker and use it (can bend the wires out and stick it in the socket.)

It's possible I have a wrong part, I don't even know if my truck has the original engine.

I have a whole box of the 194's, and I never would have thought of that. I'll try that tomorrow.

gregsz-28 · 10-27-2009, 01:50 AM

Today I used a 194 bulb as a noid light in the connector for the EGR control solenoid, and I got a steady, bright light. I want to see what kind of signal it is getting at cold idle, so I'll try to remember to put that bulb in that connector tomorrow before I start the truck.
If it gets the same signal at cold idle, I don't see that there would be any reason to even have the control valve.

Didn't make it to the JY today, will tomorrow though.

BTW, how do I access the ECM? I only looked at it long enough to locate it, but do I have to pull the dash off to reseat the PROM?
And what does 'PROM' mean?

Steady Eddie · 10-27-2009, 10:38 AM

greg--

Relax..take a deep breath.

Please read the other EGR threads on here...

Your EGR solenoid valve is off until warm-up (approximately a coolant temp of 131* F.) then it is switched on (full to the EGR valve) ..

Then, as the throttle is opened, the vacuum increases past 6 inches of measured vacuum, and the EGR valve begins to operate (opens) via exhaust back pressure..EGR solenoid valve "on".

I believe that your new AC-Delco EGR valve will solve your problems.

Shaddix · 10-27-2009, 01:03 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by gregsz-28

Today I used a 194 bulb as a noid light in the connector for the EGR control solenoid, and I got a steady, bright light. I want to see what kind of signal it is getting at cold idle, so I'll try to remember to put that bulb in that connector tomorrow before I start the truck.
If it gets the same signal at cold idle, I don't see that there would be any reason to even have the control valve.

Didn't make it to the JY today, will tomorrow though.

BTW, how do I access the ECM? I only looked at it long enough to locate it, but do I have to pull the dash off to reseat the PROM?
And what does 'PROM' mean?

Listen to Steady Eddie about the EGR function. I think he designed the system himself seeing as how he knows so damn much!

PROM is programmable read-only memory. Its the chip is inside the ECU that has the vehicle programming on it. Resetting it is easyt as removing ground bettery cable for a minute.

gregsz-28 · 10-27-2009, 04:27 PM

When I started my truck cold with a 194 bulb in the connector, it took 10 minutes (give or take 30 seconds) before that connector got power to it. I was idling in my driveway the whole time. Wasted a lot of gas.

Steady Eddie · 10-27-2009, 05:17 PM

greg--

Yes, you may have wasted some gas.

But *now* we ALL know that Member Maxmillion was 100% right when he said that the EGR solenoid does NOT power up until the rig reaches operating temperature. 10 minutes more or less, is OK...another beta test passed...

gregsz-28 · 10-27-2009, 08:57 PM

Well at least I accomplised something with my $2 of gas.

Today when I went to the JY I got a new EGR control solenoid bracket, as soon as I saw another one I knew that the one I already had was broken. I feel stupid now, now I realize how obvious it was.

lesterl · 10-27-2009, 09:24 PM

Hey dude, the ECM is mounted with a single screw on a small bracket from the bottom of the dash, pull that screw, it will drop down easy as pie. Good luck.

10-20-2009, 06:35 PM	#1
gregsz-28 Registered User Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 58 Location: User is: OffLine	missing Today when I was driving my truck, when I accelerated from a stop sign, it felt like it had no power (I mean less than the usual...) and the SES light came on. When I slowed down 1/2 a mile later to turn, the light went off, and didn't come back on. It is now obviously missing a lot. Any advice?
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10-20-2009, 08:26 PM	#2
lesterl Wire Splicin Fool :-) Age: 30 Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 4,402 Location: Harrisonville, MO User is: OffLine	Re: missing What was the code that was stored? Short the upper 2 right holes in the connector under the column with a paper clip, turn igntion on (dont start). Count flashes of SES, will flash 1x, pause, 2x, pause, will repeat pattern 2x more (code 12 3x), next sequence of flashes will be the next code for a total of 3x then on to the next one, the series of codes will end in code 12 again.
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10-21-2009, 11:23 AM	#3
FlipS10er FlipS10er Age: 26 Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 6 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: missing This might sound uninformed guys, but for curiosity sake .. what is the SES light if we are talking first gen ?
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10-21-2009, 11:24 AM	#4
FlipS10er FlipS10er Age: 26 Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 6 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: missing Haha sorry guys, it is early and im not thinking, service engine soon ... makes sense now LOL
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10-21-2009, 02:05 PM	#5
BlueS15 not so blue Age: 20 Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 284 Location: The deep south User is: OffLine	Re: missing ten bucks says its running lean haha
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10-21-2009, 03:06 PM	#6
gregsz-28 Registered User Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 58 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: missing Code 32
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10-21-2009, 03:18 PM	#7
gregsz-28 Registered User Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 58 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: missing A search has revealed to me that code 32 means the problem is EGR related. Is this something that is commonly fixed with a new EGR valve? Holy SH!T! $75 for a new EGR valve! Very good thing I don't have an auto trans. Last edited by gregsz-28 : 10-21-2009 at 03:26 PM.
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10-21-2009, 10:50 PM	#8
lesterl Wire Splicin Fool :-) Age: 30 Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 4,402 Location: Harrisonville, MO User is: OffLine	Re: missing Greg, methinks you probably got the #'s backwards, IIRC the Auto is $75, the Manual is $120....... Might pull the EGR and clean the carbon out of it, that may be all it needs or possibly an O2 sensor.
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10-22-2009, 12:32 AM	#9
gregsz-28 Registered User Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 58 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: missing Napa has the manual one at $75 and the auto one at $154. I'll try both of those tomorrow, just hope I don't have to replace the EGR valve. Is there a way to test it?
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10-22-2009, 10:38 AM	#10
Steady Eddie Sending Big Oil a Message Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,009 Location: The Great Pacific Northwet User is: OffLine	Re: missing Quote: Originally Posted by gregsz-28 Napa has the manual one at $75 and the auto one at $154. I'll try both of those tomorrow, just hope I don't have to replace the EGR valve. Is there a way to test it? ====================== Do not spend the bucks yet for a new EGR valve... Our "window" into the inner workings of the Iron Duke is the SES light..but the system is fairly primitive, and it only shows you approximately what is wrong. The code that you got, signifies a "problem" in the entire EGR valve "system"...not necessarily the EGR valve itself..chances are good that your valve is carboned up with black bear shit carbon from the exhaust gases that pass through it. But, it is operated by vacuum, and that means you must check the vacuum lines and the EGR solenoid valve, which pulses a vacuum to the EGR valve, to operate it. If you have to buy a NEW EGR valve, ONLY buy an OEM AC-Delco EGR valve..the after market ones are junk..they have weak "hold-close" springs.. About testing it: I have the GM Service Manual and IT doesn't even say how to test it. It takes the easy way out and advises Mr. Goodwrench to simply replace the EGR valve, IF he suspects it is an issue.. I wonder just how many EGR valves have been changed out for no reason??
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10-22-2009, 03:47 PM	#11
gregsz-28 Registered User Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 58 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: missing Is there a way I can test the EGR solenoid valve?
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10-22-2009, 07:08 PM	#12
Steady Eddie Sending Big Oil a Message Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,009 Location: The Great Pacific Northwet User is: OffLine	Re: missing Quote: Originally Posted by gregsz-28 Is there a way I can test the EGR solenoid valve? ======================== Its' "normal" state is OFF, and with the thing electrically disconnected, it (I think) should not flow any air blown through it. I do not know if the PCM shoots a low voltage signal (like 5 volts DC) to it, to operate it, or, if it requires a full 12 volts to cycle it on. In any case, be sure of its' voltage requirement BEFORE you pork the voltage to it...
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10-22-2009, 10:46 PM	#13
gregsz-28 Registered User Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 58 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: missing Today I replaced the O2 sensor and cleaned the EGR valve, without improvement. I'll check the EGR control solenoid tomorrow. Under what conditions should there be vacuum on the EGR valve side of it?
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10-22-2009, 11:22 PM	#14
*J_SIN* Administrator Age: 31 Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 7,734 Location: tacoma WA User is: OffLine	Re: missing its a long shot but my 86 2.5 acted just like that and I changed a TON of parts before finally doing the plug wires, which was the real issue. I think they're only like 16 bucks so it wouldn't cost much to try that and it never hurts to have new wires anyways if you haven't replaced yours recently. I know that doesn't match what your SES codes are giving you but those codes can sometimes make trouble shooting far more difficult by misleading you IMO. my truck would take off like it was running on two cylinders then suddenly kick in and drive like it should. I dont think it ever was an issue at cruising speeds, mostly just did it at random times when accelerating, then it got progressively worse over time.
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10-23-2009, 12:49 AM	#15
gregsz-28 Registered User Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 58 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: missing I haven't had the truck even two weeks, so I don't know how old the plug wires are, but they don't look to be more than a few years old, and in good condition. Just dirty. Today I noticed my upper radiator hose is leaking, and it looks to be the original one!
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10-23-2009, 01:37 AM	#16
*J_SIN* Administrator Age: 31 Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 7,734 Location: tacoma WA User is: OffLine	Re: missing if I were you I'd throw a few bucks into a tune up to start with. should be able to do the cap, rotor, plugs and wires for under 50 bucks.
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10-23-2009, 01:45 AM	#17
dimerunner88 whore turned lurker Age: 23 Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 19,764 Location: Clay City,IN User is: OffLine	Re: missing i agree with j_sin, a full tune-up can only help
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10-23-2009, 01:52 AM	#18
gregsz-28 Registered User Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 58 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: missing What I have done to the truck so far is: Changed oil and filter Changed coolant Replaced PCV valve grommets Replaced O2 sensor Replaced thermostat Replaced air filter Replaced spark plugs And this: http://www.s10forum.com/forum/f62/ps...1/#post6578098 Maybe some other stuff I'm forgetting. The previous owner said he installed a new cap and rotor (I can't verify what he said, but the cap externally looks new) and a new water pump (which looks new, it isn't rusty yet). There is no cat, but a pipe welded in its place. I don't plan to replace it unless we start having inspections here.
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10-23-2009, 02:28 AM	#19
Steady Eddie Sending Big Oil a Message Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,009 Location: The Great Pacific Northwet User is: OffLine	Re: missing Quote: Originally Posted by gregsz-28 ....Under what conditions should there be vacuum on the EGR valve side of it? ======================== greg-- I don't know..the Factory Service Manual doesn't say..but I AM 100% sure how the EGR valve is "tested" by the brainbox.. When the EGR opens, the O2 sensor "sees" a lean-out condition, which tells the PCM EGR valve monitor that the valve has opened. This is triggered by a vacuum pulse signal from the EGR solenoid valve. "When" this happens is important. Because the exhaust gases flow into the intake manifold, it causes a stumble, a leaning out. It happens after a sustained speed of 40-45 MPH, when a stumble is not so noticeable...then, the solenoid valve is commanded to close the EGR valve, and, once again, the O2 sensor now sees a richer fuel/air mix. If anything happens, the SES light comes on. If the EGR valve is sticking a bit on closing, but DOES finally shut, then the SES light merely flashes on and soon goes off. Last edited by Steady Eddie : 10-23-2009 at 02:37 AM.
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10-23-2009, 02:55 AM	#20
gregsz-28 Registered User Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 58 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: missing That sounds pretty much like what happened to me. Before I stopped at the stop sign, (the one I accelerated from when the SES light came on) I was driving on a 40 mph road (the police station is on that road, so I was doing 40-42 mph). I'll hook a vacuum gauge up to the EGR valve solenoid tomorrow as soon as I start the truck and leave it on there for a while, and if I see full vacuum at some point, I'll order up a delco EGR valve.
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10-23-2009, 05:09 PM	#21
gregsz-28 Registered User Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 58 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: missing First I hooked my vacuum gauge up to manifold vacuum, and it made about 19 in. Hg. Then, I removed the line from the throttle body to the EGR solenoid valve, and put the vacuum gauge on the throttle body, and by increasing RPM (not sure how much, no tach), I was able to get it to almost full manifold vacuum. I had the same results when I connected the vacuum gauge to the other side of the EGR solenoid valve, when it was plugged in. When it wasn't plugged in, there was no vacuum there, under any throttle position. All of this was done at hot idle. During these tests, the engine always seemed to act the same, running like crap. To me, this indicates that the EGR solenoid valve is not the problem. I'll order a new Delco EGR valve today.
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10-23-2009, 08:33 PM	#22
lesterl Wire Splicin Fool :-) Age: 30 Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 4,402 Location: Harrisonville, MO User is: OffLine	Re: missing I would check the IAT temperature with it running like crap, if the intake temp is high (then you probably have an open EGR flow into the intake. The EGR should only open at cruising speeds so the ECM can lean out the mix, it should NOT be open at idle. Has this truck been sitting for a while? Last edited by lesterl : 10-23-2009 at 08:34 PM.
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10-23-2009, 08:52 PM	#23
gregsz-28 Registered User Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 58 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: missing What is the IAT, and how do I check its temp? As my vacuum test showed, there is only vacuum to the EGR when the throttle blade is opened, so wouldn't that mean the EGR valve couldn't open at idle?
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10-23-2009, 09:16 PM	#24
gregsz-28 Registered User Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 58 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: missing Can someone post a pic of how the EGR solenoid valve mounts? I can't seem to figure it out just looking at it...
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10-23-2009, 11:30 PM	#25
lesterl Wire Splicin Fool :-) Age: 30 Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 4,402 Location: Harrisonville, MO User is: OffLine	Re: missing What year is your truck? 85/86 use ported TBI vacume and dont have a modulator solenoid. IAT is right behind the alternator in the top of the intake. It (when disconnected) will read a resistance which can be matched to that in my signature.
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10-23-2009, 11:51 PM	#26
dimerunner88 whore turned lurker Age: 23 Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 19,764 Location: Clay City,IN User is: OffLine	Re: missing Quote: Originally Posted by gregsz-28 Can someone post a pic of how the EGR solenoid valve mounts? I can't seem to figure it out just looking at it... its two bolts under the diaphragm
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10-24-2009, 01:22 AM	#27
gregsz-28 Registered User Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 58 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: missing It's an '89, and it uses TBI vacuum, but the vacuum line still doesn't go straight from the throttle body to the EGR valve. I'll try to remember to post a pic of the vacuum port it uses tomorrow to clear up any confusion.
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10-24-2009, 01:24 AM	#28
gregsz-28 Registered User Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 58 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: missing Quote: Originally Posted by dimerunner88 its two bolts under the diaphragm lol yeah I know that, but I mean the thing in the middle of the vacuum line to the EGR valve, that has an electrical connector on it. This thing: http://www.autozone.com/autozone/cat...S9/3/image/%5D Last edited by gregsz-28 : 10-24-2009 at 01:27 AM.
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10-24-2009, 02:04 AM	#29
Steady Eddie Sending Big Oil a Message Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,009 Location: The Great Pacific Northwet User is: OffLine	Re: missing greg-- Yep--that is the EGR valve operating solenoid, just like the one I changed on my '89 S10. The little foam cover stays on the tube shown, it is a filter for the exhaust port on the valve. It is also the first thing that "goes away" leaving nothing but an open tubing port, which throws many S10 owners for a loop, because they (wrongly) figure a tube must go on it...
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10-24-2009, 12:59 PM	#30
Shaddix Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 144 Location: Astoria, Oregon User is: OffLine	Re: missing Quote: Originally Posted by gregsz-28 First I hooked my vacuum gauge up to manifold vacuum, and it made about 19 in. Hg. Then, I removed the line from the throttle body to the EGR solenoid valve, and put the vacuum gauge on the throttle body, and by increasing RPM (not sure how much, no tach), I was able to get it to almost full manifold vacuum. I had the same results when I connected the vacuum gauge to the other side of the EGR solenoid valve, when it was plugged in. When it wasn't plugged in, there was no vacuum there, under any throttle position. All of this was done at hot idle. During these tests, the engine always seemed to act the same, running like crap. To me, this indicates that the EGR solenoid valve is not the problem. I'll order a new Delco EGR valve today. I am having this EXACT SAME PROBLEM!!! 100% to a tee! EGR solenoid is providing vacuum at all times when its plugged in just like yours. No vacuum when unplugged. How is this possible when the EGR valve isnt being used at idle?!? It should have NO vacuum to EGR until the ECU calls for it, not vacuum all the time at the solenoid port! If my valve stayed shut until I was actually driving the thing, I bet mine would run perfect, but it gets opened at all times through the solenoid! [Solenoid is brand new] When it goes back to idle and no manifold vacuum is present, the valve shuts all the way and stops the EGR leaking into intake, making it idle ok. If the solenoid is open at all times, why would we need it. Why not just run a line from the vacuum port straight to the valve if it was suposed to work like this? Because something is not working right!!! This makes me think the EGR valve might be OK and I wonder if the ECU is malfunctioning now??? Last edited by Shaddix : 10-24-2009 at 01:05 PM.
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10-24-2009, 06:29 PM	#31
gregsz-28 Registered User Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 58 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: missing Quote: Originally Posted by Steady Eddie greg-- Yep--that is the EGR valve operating solenoid, just like the one I changed on my '89 S10. The little foam cover stays on the tube shown, it is a filter for the exhaust port on the valve. It is also the first thing that "goes away" leaving nothing but an open tubing port, which throws many S10 owners for a loop, because they (wrongly) figure a tube must go on it... I don't understand. What's a filter for what exhaust port? My EGR valve solenoid has the open port on it, but I knew it was supposed to be that way by looking at the sticker on my fan shroud. RockAuto said my new Delco EGR valve won't ship until October 30, so I probably won't get it until the Monday after that.
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10-24-2009, 06:51 PM	#32
Shaddix Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 144 Location: Astoria, Oregon User is: OffLine	Re: missing Quote: Originally Posted by gregsz-28 I don't understand. What's a filter for what exhaust port? My EGR valve solenoid has the open port on it, but I knew it was supposed to be that way by looking at the sticker on my fan shroud. RockAuto said my new Delco EGR valve won't ship until October 30, so I probably won't get it until the Monday after that. The filter he is speaking of is on the EGR solenoid itself. It can break off and look like an open vacuum port. It stumped me till I found the forums.
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10-24-2009, 11:27 PM	#33
lesterl Wire Splicin Fool :-) Age: 30 Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 4,402 Location: Harrisonville, MO User is: OffLine	Re: missing You may have the line to the EGR hooked up to the Vent port not the EGR Port if your Filter is missing off the solenoid then maybe it got mixed up (is easy to do.)
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10-24-2009, 11:29 PM	#34
gregsz-28 Registered User Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 58 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: missing Anyways, can someone post a pic of how the EGR solenoid valve mounts? Right how mine is just hanging by the vacuum lines.
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10-24-2009, 11:32 PM	#35
gregsz-28 Registered User Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 58 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: missing Quote: Originally Posted by lesterl You may have the line to the EGR hooked up to the Vent port not the EGR Port if your Filter is missing off the solenoid then maybe it got mixed up (is easy to do.) No, I don't think so, the one the EGR valve is hooked up to has vacuum to it. I didn't test the other one, but I doubt it does, because if both had vacuum to them, then one of them would just be a vacuum leak. Edit: BTW, the truck might have sat for a while before I got, the tabs that were on it expired in May. I haven't had it even to weeks yet. Last edited by gregsz-28 : 10-24-2009 at 11:35 PM.
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