EGR valve elimination... - S-10 Forum
S-10 Forum is the resource on GM S-series trucks, Suspension, engine information, Body Modifications, painting tutorials.  Modifications to suit every need, budget and whim

EGR valve elimination...

Go Back   S-10 Forum > Engine and Drivetrain Tech > 2.5L - 1st gen 4-banging
New User? Register Forgot Password


 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 01-01-2009, 10:37 AM   #1
Sending Big Oil a Message
 
Steady Eddie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,890
Location: The Great Pacific Northwet
User is: OffLine
EGR valve elimination...

http://dtcc.cz28.com/eprom/index.htm

These guys sound real good to me. $55 for a re-programmed prom chip..they do Fieros and other OBD1 apps.
Old 01-01-2009, 11:03 PM   #2
Sending Big Oil a Message
 
Steady Eddie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,890
Location: The Great Pacific Northwet
User is: OffLine
Lightbulb Re: EGR valve elimination...vs. Smog testing.

*If* you have smog testing where you live, you cannot eliminate the EGR valve, and still expect to pass emissions testing.

However, if you live where they DO NOT do any smog testing, you can remove the EGR valve and install a block-off plate. But not without programming the prom chip to ignore the whole ERG valve mess.

There is a post on another thread here (#29?) where a Member here said something to the effect that the EGR valve may be the "root of all evil"..and I agree 100%++.

Our trucks are becoming very old, many with OE or aftermarket EGR valves. If either are open a bit at idle, it will soon allow for all sorts of problems. The blackening of the Intake Air Temperature sensor comes to mind. One thing leads to another, and the root cause is the faulty EGR valve.

I live where we do not test emissions. If I did live where smog checking was a reality, my only option would be to install a $100 OE AC Delco (Delphi) EGR valve. My own S10 ain't worth much. Many Members here don't have a Franklin to throw at their truck for a new EGR valve. Me included.

But if I could buy a $55 prom chip, with the EGR programming neutered, I'd do it next pay check. I can make a block off plate out of aluminum plate flat stock, using the EGR valve gasket as a pattern.

If the EGR valve is holding open at idle, the ECU/PCM will not throw a code (in so far as I know) and then the rest is all downhill from there. You begin casting about, performing test after test, maybe getting lucky and actually finding a bad sensor, and changing it out. What happens next is the confusing part. The Duke runs "right" for a while, then begins to run poorly again...it is the damned EGR valve.

Last edited by Steady Eddie; 01-01-2009 at 11:10 PM.
Old 01-01-2009, 11:34 PM   #3
Wire Splicin Fool :-)
 
lesterl's Avatar
 
Age: 34
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 8,691
Location: Harrisonville, MO
User is: OffLine
Re: EGR valve elimination...

Wunder if you could use the signal that drives the EGR solenoid to drive a circuit to modify the O2 signal, and what would the ECM be looking for from the O2?
Old 01-02-2009, 12:35 AM   #4
Sending Big Oil a Message
 
Steady Eddie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,890
Location: The Great Pacific Northwet
User is: OffLine
Lightbulb Re: EGR valve elimination...

Quote: Originally Posted by lesterl
Wunder if you could use the signal that drives the EGR solenoid to drive a circuit to modify the O2 signal, and what would the ECM be looking for from the O2?
===============
les--

The EGR valve is supposed to sit in there and work. Period.
It is supposed to stay shut at idle (you knew that) and is checked by the PCM at a sustained road speed of at least 45 MPH. It is then (at that time) that the PCM "looks" for a lean out condition and (if found) all is OK, no codes are stored and the SES light remains off. Now when it pulses the EGR valve on in normal day to day stop and go driving is open/up for discussion. You would need an in-the-cab noid light or an equal to see it flash when the EGR Solenoid "calls" for vacuum. Now, does it call for EGR operation all the time, an on-off condition always or once every 10 minutes, I do not know.

But I do think (now) that being rid of it is the best option for those of us that do not have emissions testing. Any electronic trickery, to "fool" the PCM is pointless, because the damn thing can be NOT closing completely, and you'd never know it, until the performance fell off. Or the Duke idled funny.

This has got to be why the MFGs went to the new style electronic EGR valves with the little stepper motors in them. They are driven open by the PCM based on total counts seen. Zero counts equals fully closed and the PCM can see it. However, 15 counts at a time when the thing should be at zero, throws a code and set the SES light to ON. We don't have this niceity with the Duke's PCM.

Being rid of the Duke's EGR valve solves a TON of troubleshooting headaches.

Last edited by Steady Eddie; 01-02-2009 at 12:42 AM.
Old 01-02-2009, 11:42 AM   #5
Wire Splicin Fool :-)
 
lesterl's Avatar
 
Age: 34
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 8,691
Location: Harrisonville, MO
User is: OffLine
Re: EGR valve elimination...

I was talking about the block off plate and the electroinc circuit of the valve to trick the ECM to thinking it was still there so you didnt have to get a new prom. Just another thought.
Old 01-02-2009, 01:03 PM   #6
Sending Big Oil a Message
 
Steady Eddie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,890
Location: The Great Pacific Northwet
User is: OffLine
Lightbulb Re: EGR valve elimination...

Quote: Originally Posted by lesterl
I was talking about the block off plate and the electronic circuit of the valve to trick the ECM to thinking it was still there so you didn't have to get a new prom. Just another thought.
=======================
les--

What you describe is called an EGR Valve Simulator.
They are made for OBD2 apps, like for a F**d 5.0 Liter V-8.

I see what you are saying tho..at the time when the ERG gets "called for" by the PCM, you'd have to have a voltage signal going to the correct PCM terminal of an amount that would equal the "lean out EGR enabled" output of the O2 sensor. This voltage (what ever it is) could be triggered by the OE EGR sol. valve. I think (don't really know) that a set-up like that would affect the fuel tables and cause a run lean condition. A cusrom prom chip does away with all that.
Old 01-02-2009, 10:11 PM   #7
Wire Splicin Fool :-)
 
lesterl's Avatar
 
Age: 34
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 8,691
Location: Harrisonville, MO
User is: OffLine
Re: EGR valve elimination...

Yeah, but I betcha could build one cheap tho.
Old 01-03-2009, 12:26 AM   #8
Sending Big Oil a Message
 
Steady Eddie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,890
Location: The Great Pacific Northwet
User is: OffLine
Lightbulb Re: EGR valve elimination...

Quote: Originally Posted by lesterl
Yeah, but I betcha could build one cheap tho.
=====================
Yes, probably a resistor or a resistor/bridge circuit, and also probably about 6 bucks worth of parts from Radio Shack...but does the PCM "also" look at the O2-to-EGR-to-PCM output during normal running?? Like when it is NOT calling for an EGR valve check at 45 MPH???

This is where the buffalo chips get deep.

Once the EGR functions are programmed out, the Iron Duke becomes a non-compliant, smog producer, and, the door swings wide open for exhaust system mods like being rid of the cat and three inch exhaust tubing, hmmm...
Old 01-03-2009, 11:22 AM   #9
Sending Big Oil a Message
 
Steady Eddie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,890
Location: The Great Pacific Northwet
User is: OffLine
Lightbulb Re: EGR valve.....

Just to show how an average S-10 Iron Duke Owner can get in a jam with the replacement (not elimination) of the OE EGR valve:

There are two of them..one for the Automatic Transmission, and a different one for the Manual 5-speed (1989 Code E)!!

You could stroll into the Auto Parts Store and be sold the WRONG EGR valve. And not know it, as they look the same.
If you put a AT EGR valve in a MT rig, it would NEVER work right, different vacuum levels, and--bang--you have just shot your self in the foot.

I wonder just how many Dukes are out there, idling funny, running funny, with brand new AC Delco EGR valves? The WRONG brand new AC Delco EGR valve??

And the unknowing Owner has to just blow it off, and ASSume that ALL Dukes must run like crap??

"hmmm, I'd better sell it or stuff a V-8 into it"...

The "correct" MT EGR valve (for an 89 Code E) is an AC Delco #17088114, and also is known as a #214-5574 (sub group?) and they are stupid expensive...

Last edited by Steady Eddie; 01-03-2009 at 11:32 AM.
Old 01-04-2009, 12:03 AM   #10
Wire Splicin Fool :-)
 
lesterl's Avatar
 
Age: 34
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 8,691
Location: Harrisonville, MO
User is: OffLine
Re: EGR valve elimination...

Awesome Info Eddie!!!!
Old 01-04-2009, 01:05 AM   #11
R/C Guru
 
92 s10 project's Avatar
 
Age: 26
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 617
Location: St Louis, MO
User is: OffLine
Re: EGR valve elimination...

All kinds of goodness in here!

I emailed them about my s10. See what I get back.

Looks like I may have myself a new project once school starts up again! Billet block off plate perhaps? Haha.
Old 01-04-2009, 01:23 AM   #12
Sending Big Oil a Message
 
Steady Eddie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,890
Location: The Great Pacific Northwet
User is: OffLine
Lightbulb Re: EGR valve elimination...

Quote: Originally Posted by 92 s10 project
All kinds of goodness in here!

I emailed them about my s10. See what I get back.

Looks like I may have myself a new project once school starts up again! Billet block off plate perhaps? Haha.
================
Jason--

Post back what they say, OK?

Been doing some heavy surfing about Prom chips for our Dukes. One thing I have turned up is a common complaint: The new "tuned" chip didn't work.

Then I dug deeper: The OE stock chip is tuned just about perfect the way it is. If a tuner Guy modifies the wrong "bin" or makes a guess, the performance suffers. A sharp tuner Guy knows enough to not screw with a good thing.
So, being sharp and smart, they remove the EGR junk, if requested, and maybe a couple of other things they change--top speed limit, etc. And they leave the fuel and timing tables alone..because they know that they are near perfect as is..considering the fact that it IS a Duke,
with limited power and torque.

So they box it up and send it out, and the end result is a custom burned Prom chip that "didn't work"....
Old 01-04-2009, 02:12 AM   #13
R/C Guru
 
92 s10 project's Avatar
 
Age: 26
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 617
Location: St Louis, MO
User is: OffLine
Re: EGR valve elimination...

Ill post back for sure Eddie.
Old 01-04-2009, 03:39 AM   #14
Registered User
 
stancil1216's Avatar
 
Age: 25
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 233
Location:
User is: OffLine
Re: EGR valve elimination...

i don't see why you need to get a custom burned chip just to take your EGR off... i took mine off and the engine light doesn't come on? the only real reason i would get a chip if they made one that miraculously (speeling??) gave the engine like 100 more hp... then i would buy one...
Old 01-04-2009, 05:12 AM   #15
R/C Guru
 
92 s10 project's Avatar
 
Age: 26
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 617
Location: St Louis, MO
User is: OffLine
Re: EGR valve elimination...

Its all about making stuff work like it should, when its not working like it should.

By just removing the EGR components, which I have done myself, the engine is no longer working like it should, or to its fullest potential. So by getting the PROM changed to ignore all the EGR stuff and taking care of fuel maps otherwise, it is now working like it should.

If you read everything that has been discussed in this thread, its pretty self explanatory why it should be done correctly.
Old 01-04-2009, 10:11 AM   #16
Sending Big Oil a Message
 
Steady Eddie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,890
Location: The Great Pacific Northwet
User is: OffLine
Lightbulb Re: EGR valve elimination...

Quote: Originally Posted by 92 s10 project
Its all about making stuff work like it should, when its not working like it should.

By just removing the EGR components, which I have done myself, the engine is no longer working like it should, or to its fullest potential. So by getting the PROM changed to ignore all the EGR stuff and taking care of fuel maps otherwise, it is now working like it should.

If you read everything that has been discussed in this thread, its pretty self explanatory why it should be done correctly.
====================
92 S10---

I am glad that you have enough vision to "see" this issue.

Brian, of tbichips.com, is an advertiser on eBay. He claims a 12 HP boost from using one of his "tuned" prom chips. It is not much of a boost and certainly NOT worth his asking price. Knowing what I know now, about how well the OE prom chip is programmed, I believe that this 12 HP boost may come from EGR elimination.

How?

By the 7% more fuel/air going into each cylinder that was inert (non-combustibles) exhaust gas, injected by the EGR valve, before. That is 7% of the swept volume of each cylinder. Will the Duke gobble more fuel without an EGR valve?? Of course it will. But by giving the Duke what it wants, you gain a power increase. Will the combustion/cylinder temperatures increase? Of course they will. But by using a 180* t-stat you negate that concern completely. No worries about blown head gaskets or burnt valves.

So, this EGR elimination is really a three step process: #1
The prom chip with the EGR valve functions removed (programmed out) #2 The physical removal of all EGR components on the engine #3 The use of a 180* t-stat...

I would even go so far as to say, that, because an air/fuel mixture does not compress as easily as the inert exhaust
gas does, you *may* even see a slight improvement in compression...

Last edited by Steady Eddie; 01-04-2009 at 10:13 AM.
Old 01-04-2009, 12:04 PM   #17
Wire Splicin Fool :-)
 
lesterl's Avatar
 
Age: 34
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 8,691
Location: Harrisonville, MO
User is: OffLine
Re: EGR valve elimination...

With an electronic bypass you could "switch" from Non EGR to EGR operation with a switch, basically bypassing the modulator solenoid with an O2 adjusting circuit to "fool" the ECM into thinking the EGR is working and cutting off the modulated signal to the modulator valve so that the EGR remains closed. When you switch it back on, it bypasses the O2 fooling circuit and reengages the Modulator solenoid.
Old 01-04-2009, 03:23 PM   #18
Sending Big Oil a Message
 
Steady Eddie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,890
Location: The Great Pacific Northwet
User is: OffLine
Lightbulb Re: EGR valve elimination...

Quote: Originally Posted by lesterl
With an electronic bypass you could "switch" from Non EGR to EGR operation with a switch, basically bypassing the modulator solenoid with an O2 adjusting circuit to "fool" the ECM into thinking the EGR is working and cutting off the modulated signal to the modulator valve so that the EGR remains closed. When you switch it back on, it bypasses the O2 fooling circuit and reengages the Modulator solenoid.
==================
les--

The "why" of the 45 MPH threshold, when the PCM "tests" the ERG valve, is that the prolonged lean out is less noticed by the driver at that sustained speed. The test DOES induce a stumble and I believe this "stumble" is what the O2 sensor "sees" during the testing mode. I refer back to the *KISS* principle here as parts left out cost nothing, and create no maintenance problems later on. A switch circuit to fool the PCM is not making things simpler. That said, your switch circuit ASSumes a tight EGR valve at idle, something that I do not have now and even with the install of the correct AC Delco EGR valve, I might have in the future. My goofy idling Duke drives me crazy, but not crazy enough to buy a 100 dollar (plus shipping & handling) new EGR valve that could fail down the road. The EGR valve IS the problem. And having to remove it to clean it every 6 months or so, is a major PITA.
Remember that we do not have smog testing here, and won't anytime soon.

Last edited by Steady Eddie; 01-04-2009 at 03:31 PM.
Old 01-05-2009, 07:44 PM   #19
Sending Big Oil a Message
 
Steady Eddie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,890
Location: The Great Pacific Northwet
User is: OffLine
Lightbulb Re: EGR valve elimination...

http://www.tomco-inc.com/Tech_Tips/ttt27.pdf

This link explains a lot...esp. note the paragraph where they speak of a "weak" spring...Tomco makes a screened gasket for the Duke's EGR valve that prevents bits of carbon from plugging it up. But the CAUSE of the carbon is the flow of exhaust (dung) through the valve during *normal* operation, and it soon blackens the insides of the intake manifold AND the Intake Air Temperature sensor causing all sorts of runnability issues. Best to be rid of the EGR valve, if you do not have smog checks.

Last edited by Steady Eddie; 01-05-2009 at 07:51 PM.
Old 01-07-2009, 09:14 PM   #20
R/C Guru
 
92 s10 project's Avatar
 
Age: 26
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 617
Location: St Louis, MO
User is: OffLine
Re: EGR valve elimination...

Ive been talking with Ryan at Sinister Performance a bit. He had me gain access to the ECM and find out if I had a PROM or a mem-cal chip.

My truck has a gen 1 mem-cal chip in it. He asked for some numbers fromt he chip and ECM and he found he has the software to make me a custom chip. It will require sending them the chip and waiting for them to send it back after theyve done their magic.

I am currently awaiting the answer to a few questions like 'Can I use a chip from another S10 of the same year and with the save drivetrain combo so I do not have any downtime?'

I assume I could but I have no idea about this stuff. Ill keep you posted.
Old 01-08-2009, 09:05 AM   #21
Sending Big Oil a Message
 
Steady Eddie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,890
Location: The Great Pacific Northwet
User is: OffLine
Lightbulb Re: EGR valve elimination...

Jason---

Ryan is our man...I've been doing a boatload of research about this subject, on this end.

I have a sneaking idea that what we are asking them to do for us, may be illegal. Kinda like the act of cutting off the cat is a Federal crime. I say: Oh, well!! No smog checks here...

The files that are within the prom are called "binary files" or "bin" files. Put this little tidbit in your head: It is yet ANOTHER difference between the Code E Duke and the Code A duke--they have different bin files in their prom chips. The bin files are all numbered and that is why Ryan wanted some ID numbers off your chip. The bin for an 88-89 Code E (my app) is (I think) $52. All of the bin numbers are a dollar sign, followed by a number. Ryan wanted to know this (I imagine) to see if he had the correct bin file in his records.

What we want Ryan to do (eliminate the EGR functions), we could do ourselves. But cost is a major concern here.
To "burn it yourself" requires the spending of about 300
dollars for the hardware alone. And then you risk screwing up your (only) OE prom chip from a miscalculation or glitch of some kind. The on-off switches
contained within the bin files are called "flags". The flags for the EGR functions are what we need turned off (or changed to a zero value of "0"). What we get for our money is Ryan's smarts and his abilities. It is still a bargain compared to buying a new AC Delco EGR valve.
JMHO..

Last edited by Steady Eddie; 01-08-2009 at 09:09 AM.
Old 01-08-2009, 12:25 PM   #22
Registered User
 
Age: 36
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 273
Location:
User is: OffLine
Re: EGR valve elimination...

wow i like all the effort put into trying to make the best running duke possible! well all know its just not realistic to dump a assload of cash into this motor for performance. but to spend money wise you can not only clean up the engine bay a bit, but improve performance and fuel economy also. i will be watching this thread closley and im all in for a group buy discount! i have a 89' sbrc 2.5 5 spd. and have been back and forth as to v8 it when it gives up the ghost or rebuild it. and i have finally decoded to rebuild it. the reason? i looked for a long time to find a unmolested 4cyl 5 spd 1st gen to own and fix up. well i got a near mint one with air! at that, for me to v8 would be just wrong. if thats what i want then ill buy one thats just a roller or one thats already done. so i will build a mild 2.5 and enjoy it. oh it helps i have 3 sport bikes to get the speed itch out! sorry for the thread jack hope this pans out im very interested in this, i also have been tryin to find an affordable header but thats like finding sasquatch!
Old 01-09-2009, 12:31 AM   #23
R/C Guru
 
92 s10 project's Avatar
 
Age: 26
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 617
Location: St Louis, MO
User is: OffLine
Re: EGR valve elimination...

In my talkings with Ryan, he has told me that as long as the chip comes from the same year range (91-93 in my case) and drive train combo, those chips will work too.

I am going to the junk yard this Sunday, so Ill grab a chip or three while im there and send one of those off to Ryan so I dont have to wait for that to come back if I get everything else done and driveable. Plus I will have a chip with OEM tune on it so I can just plop that back in quickly if I ever have to.

He had me fill out a form with all the specs of my build. Things like serious mods, to exhaust size and components used, to what thermostat I have, tire size for speedo corrections, etc. In the option list was a 'highway fuel mode', which will basically do the job the EGR system did, which is leaning the mix at a steady highway cruise. So in the end, fuel mileage shouldnt be an issue.

Ill be sending out my payment along with a chip on Monday. Should be looking at something like a weeks turnaround.
Old 01-10-2009, 06:02 PM   #24
Registered User
 
5.74x4's Avatar
 
Age: 35
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,046
Location: corydon,indiana
User is: OffLine
Re: EGR valve elimination...

I'm putting together a 91 e code 2.5 truck now for the main purpose of a daily driver and am interested in the egr elimination since the truck I'm pulling the engine out of never did seem to idle right and I'm wondering if the egr valve is to blame. all other sensors check out good. looking for ward to hearing the results.
Old 01-11-2009, 09:53 AM   #25
Sending Big Oil a Message
 
Steady Eddie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,890
Location: The Great Pacific Northwet
User is: OffLine
Thumbs up Re: EGR valve elimination...

Quote: Originally Posted by 5.74x4
I'm putting together a 91 e code 2.5 truck now for the main purpose of a daily driver and am interested in the egr elimination since the truck I'm pulling the engine out of never did seem to idle right and I'm wondering if the egr valve is to blame. all other sensors check out good. looking for ward to hearing the results.
=============================
5.7---

I am glad that you, too, can "see" this issue. My Code E has an aftermarket EGR valve in it now, one that I cleaned the bejesus out of...When at hot idle, it sits there and idles as pretty as a picture for about 25-30 seconds and then stumbles, catches itself, then idles well again. Over and over. Just like clockwork. Regular. I suspect a leaky EGR valve. It leaks just enough dung air exhaust to "build up" over the time span and the result is a goofy idle. It simply drives me wild. It is going lean and rich, lean and rich, over and over. Above an idle it seems to do well, at least I do not notice it as much. Who knows how much more fuel economy I will gain, once the idle is settled down??
Old 01-11-2009, 12:26 PM   #26
Registered User
 
5.74x4's Avatar
 
Age: 35
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,046
Location: corydon,indiana
User is: OffLine
Re: EGR valve elimination...

Quote: Originally Posted by Steady Eddie
=============================
5.7---

I am glad that you, too, can "see" this issue. My Code E has an aftermarket EGR valve in it now, one that I cleaned the bejesus out of...When at hot idle, it sits there and idles as pretty as a picture for about 25-30 seconds and then stumbles, catches itself, then idles well again. Over and over. Just like clockwork. Regular. I suspect a leaky EGR valve. It leaks just enough dung air exhaust to "build up" over the time span and the result is a goofy idle. It simply drives me wild. It is going lean and rich, lean and rich, over and over. Above an idle it seems to do well, at least I do not notice it as much. Who knows how much more fuel economy I will gain, once the idle is settled down??
eddie, have you ordered the $55 dollar chip from the company you linked to yet? I'm thinking about going ahead and getting the chip as i put this engine in my ''new'' truck but would like to hear some praise about it before i spend 55 bucks plus i will have to have this truck dependable for a 30 minute ride to work everyday so it has to run top notch.
Old 01-11-2009, 12:44 PM   #27
Sending Big Oil a Message
 
Steady Eddie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,890
Location: The Great Pacific Northwet
User is: OffLine
Re: EGR valve elimination...

Quote: Originally Posted by 5.74x4
eddie, have you ordered the $55 dollar chip from the company you linked to yet? I'm thinking about going ahead and getting the chip as i put this engine in my ''new'' truck but would like to hear some praise about it before i spend 55 bucks plus i will have to have this truck dependable for a 30 minute ride to work everyday so it has to run top notch.
========================
I am waiting to see how Member 92 S10project's chip turns out.

That will be the "acid test", being how it is a new engine and all.

If he sends his money off tomorrow, as planned, and a week's turnaround, we will know soon...a "proof of concept" trial..

All I want is for Ryan to remove the EGR functions.

Last edited by Steady Eddie; 01-11-2009 at 12:49 PM.
Old 01-11-2009, 01:40 PM   #28
Sending Big Oil a Message
 
Steady Eddie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,890
Location: The Great Pacific Northwet
User is: OffLine
Exclamation Re: EGR valve elimination...a horror story...

A horror story:

http://www.fullsizechevy.com/forums/3776963-post10.html
Old 01-11-2009, 03:34 PM   #29
Registered User
 
5.74x4's Avatar
 
Age: 35
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,046
Location: corydon,indiana
User is: OffLine
Re: EGR valve elimination...

Quote: Originally Posted by Steady Eddie
========================
I am waiting to see how Member 92 S10project's chip turns out.

That will be the "acid test", being how it is a new engine and all.

If he sends his money off tomorrow, as planned, and a week's turnaround, we will know soon...a "proof of concept" trial..

All I want is for Ryan to remove the EGR functions.
then i will wait to and see what happens also and yeah that's all i want done is removal of the egr. and that horror story makes me think that there might have been other areas that would have caused so many problems like maybe poor communication in areas that would affect the chip that is needed to run a certain engine combo( he has 383 stroker listed as his engine). Although I've never bought a chip from Brian, i have talked with him many times over email and IM when i was doing my v8 swap on my 94 and he was very knowledgeable and helpful with any questions i had. I just can't see him screwing up a simple tbi chip that bad and so many times with all the chips he has done and sold.
Old 01-12-2009, 01:43 PM   #30
Sending Big Oil a Message
 
Steady Eddie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,890
Location: The Great Pacific Northwet
User is: OffLine
Re: EGR valve elimination...

"...I just can't see him screwing up a simple tbi chip that bad and so many times with all the chips he has done and sold...." ===========================
The OBD1 TBI chip is quite complicated. The OBD2 is even worse. Programming a chip requires abstract thought, ie: If I change the info on this program ladder, on this upper rung... how does it affect (the sum of) the info contained in a lower rung??? I saw a post from a self-styled prom chip re-programmer/tuner guy, where he admitted that he had changed his own prom chip's programming 200 times!! BEFORE, he got it "right"..I ain't going there...the OE chip's programming, minus the EGR functions, is good enough...

Last edited by Steady Eddie; 01-12-2009 at 01:44 PM.
Old 01-12-2009, 03:49 PM   #31
Registered User
 
5.74x4's Avatar
 
Age: 35
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,046
Location: corydon,indiana
User is: OffLine
Re: EGR valve elimination...

Quote: Originally Posted by Steady Eddie
"...I just can't see him screwing up a simple tbi chip that bad and so many times with all the chips he has done and sold...." ===========================
The OBD1 TBI chip is quite complicated. The OBD2 is even worse. Programming a chip requires abstract thought, ie: If I change the info on this program ladder, on this upper rung... how does it affect (the sum of) the info contained in a lower rung??? I saw a post from a self-styled prom chip re-programmer/tuner guy, where he admitted that he had changed his own prom chip's programming 200 times!! BEFORE, he got it "right"..I ain't going there...the OE chip's programming, minus the EGR functions, is good enough...
yeah i meant simple as compared to newer chips, i know it's nothing i want to get into trying to learn. just a stock chip with egr removed is all I'm after for my little 2.5, i want dependability and fuel mileage.
Old 01-12-2009, 07:16 PM   #32
R/C Guru
 
92 s10 project's Avatar
 
Age: 26
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 617
Location: St Louis, MO
User is: OffLine
Re: EGR valve elimination...

I havnt made it to the junk yard, hopefully tomarrow.

In another email with Ryan, he pretty much confirmed what Eddie had said abou the tune suffering on a stock engine. He said adjusting the timing/fuel tables is probably going to result in the engine not getting what it wants. So for now, until any other mods come along, I am going to stick with EGR removal.
Old 01-13-2009, 11:11 AM   #33
Sending Big Oil a Message
 
Steady Eddie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,890
Location: The Great Pacific Northwet
User is: OffLine
Lightbulb Re: EGR valve elimination...

Jason---

Remember that when you first begin using a different chip, it will run in open loop for a time, while it relearns your set-up.

This goes for your junk yard chip AND your new re-programmed
chip.

Many times this odd running is blamed on the chip itself, but it is doing what it is supposed to do, ie. learning...you just have to give it time..

How much time?? Dunno, but I have read that to re-set the short term fueling tables may take up to 40 run cycles!! This is why the new re-programmed chips sometimes get blamed for "not working"...

Last edited by Steady Eddie; 01-13-2009 at 11:14 AM.
Old 01-14-2009, 12:23 AM   #34
R/C Guru
 
92 s10 project's Avatar
 
Age: 26
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 617
Location: St Louis, MO
User is: OffLine
Re: EGR valve elimination...

Well I was unable to find an ECM today from the truck I need one from. Out of 3 junk yards, and at least 100 s-series, I found one truck with the proper drive train combo, and it was missing the ECM already...

I will probably just go ahead and send off the one I have. Ill let you all know once I get it back and get it on the road.
Old 01-14-2009, 05:32 AM   #35
Registered User
 
5.74x4's Avatar
 
Age: 35
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,046
Location: corydon,indiana
User is: OffLine
Re: EGR valve elimination...

Quote: Originally Posted by 92 s10 project
Well I was unable to find an ECM today from the truck I need one from. Out of 3 junk yards, and at least 100 s-series, I found one truck with the proper drive train combo, and it was missing the ECM already...

I will probably just go ahead and send off the one I have. Ill let you all know once I get it back and get it on the road.
what service number and prom code are you looking for? i have as tack of ecms from various first gens. might have an extra from 2.5 truck.

once the guy gets a 2.5 5 speed ecm he should be able to copy the factory settings and then be able to burn a "new" chip and won't need ones factory ecm to do a 2nd chip so if we can get him a chip then all of us should be able to just order a new one and still have our factory chip to stick back in if we needed to. although a new chip would add to the $55 cost I'm sure. just a thought, i could be wrong in my thinking.
Old 01-14-2009, 09:26 AM   #36
Sending Big Oil a Message
 
Steady Eddie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,890
Location: The Great Pacific Northwet
User is: OffLine
Lightbulb Re: EGR valve elimination...

There are several brainboxes used in the S10 series, depending upon the engine VIN number. And they have different programming bin #s..for example: The bin code of a Code A engine is different from a Code E engine's bin number....

The reason "92 S!0 project" had such a hard time finding his combo speaks volumes. Among a hundred S10s in the yard, he could only find ONE Code A, and its' brainbox was gone.

The Code A was "the latest and greatest" Iron Duke and most are still on the road.
Old 01-14-2009, 04:28 PM   #37
Registered User
 
5.74x4's Avatar
 
Age: 35
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,046
Location: corydon,indiana
User is: OffLine
Re: EGR valve elimination...

Quote: Originally Posted by Steady Eddie
There are several brainboxes used in the S10 series, depending upon the engine VIN number. And they have different programming bin #s..for example: The bin code of a Code A engine is different from a Code E engine's bin number....

The reason "92 S!0 project" had such a hard time finding his combo speaks volumes. Among a hundred S10s in the yard, he could only find ONE Code A, and its' brainbox was gone.

The Code A was "the latest and greatest" Iron Duke and most are still on the road.
i happen to have a 92 a code truck with a blown engine and cracked head
Old 01-14-2009, 06:51 PM   #38
R/C Guru
 
92 s10 project's Avatar
 
Age: 26
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 617
Location: St Louis, MO
User is: OffLine
Re: EGR valve elimination...

5.7 4x4, Id love to take you up on your offer, if that '92 you got has a 5 spd were golden, thats what I need.

The service # on my chip is: 16156647

The BCC code is: AWRK

Let me know what you got!
Old 01-15-2009, 02:15 PM   #39
No more blazer
 
83blazerlaynframe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,236
Location: Warren, mi
User is: OffLine
Re: EGR valve elimination...

Hmm, this thread catches my attention..

I have a 90 Code E w/a 5 Spd. The motor runs completely smooth at idle no matter how hot or cold it is. I got the truck from a guy that garaged it for quite some time and it only has 33,000 on the clock. I have been wanting to clean up the engine bay for some time now so i flipped the map sensor (or whatever that 3 ported valve with a 2 wire plug is) upside down and re routed new lines to clean that up some. Shit the motor still has shiney paint on it from the factory... with a little oil seepage from the irritating valve cover gasket.

Im interested to hear what 92 s10' has to say on performance and how well it runs.

Is the "chip" you are referring to the whole brainbox?
Old 01-15-2009, 06:28 PM   #40
Wire Splicin Fool :-)
 
lesterl's Avatar
 
Age: 34
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 8,691
Location: Harrisonville, MO
User is: OffLine
Re: EGR valve elimination...

The 3 port valve is the EGR Vacume Modulation valve, the PROM chip is located IN the ECM / Brainbox under an aluminum cover.
Old 01-15-2009, 06:46 PM   #41
Registered User
 
5.74x4's Avatar
 
Age: 35
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,046
Location: corydon,indiana
User is: OffLine
Re: EGR valve elimination...

THE GOODS





it's not the factory ecm, it's a factory rebuild and now that i have it out i do remember the guy saying he had an ecm put in the truck trying to figure out why it had no spark(it was the pick up in the distributor) it says GM 6647 on one sticker and the prom has the right code AWRK and it's from a 92 A code 2.5/5 speed.
Old 01-16-2009, 12:25 AM   #42
R/C Guru
 
92 s10 project's Avatar
 
Age: 26
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 617
Location: St Louis, MO
User is: OffLine
Re: EGR valve elimination...

That should work just dandy...what do you want for it?
Old 01-24-2009, 03:46 AM   #43
Registered User
 
5.74x4's Avatar
 
Age: 35
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,046
Location: corydon,indiana
User is: OffLine
Re: EGR valve elimination...

shipping a loaner ecm out in the morning so Jason can keep his truck up and running while his ecm is being reprogrammed. I'm looking forward to seeing how this egr delete pans out.
Old 01-25-2009, 05:48 PM   #44
Sending Big Oil a Message
 
Steady Eddie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,890
Location: The Great Pacific Northwet
User is: OffLine
Re: EGR valve elimination...

5.7---

Great JOB!!

That's what makes this the best S10 Forum on the 'Net.

Helping each other out.

One thing for sure, a PCM with the delete EGR valve stuff, will really help out the old troubleshooting.
Old 01-28-2009, 07:14 PM   #45
R/C Guru
 
92 s10 project's Avatar
 
Age: 26
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 617
Location: St Louis, MO
User is: OffLine
Re: EGR valve elimination...

Well, got the doner ECM today!

Email sent off to Ryan for shipping/payment info etc.

I will bring more updates as I get closer!

I will be able to put some miles on the new engine once the snow is gone. Hopefully Ill be able to get at least a couple hundred on it before the new chip is back. Truck is about 90% complete, just need to finish interior tidbits.
Old 02-15-2009, 04:32 PM   #46
Registered User
 
the_fabricator's Avatar
 
Age: 29
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 150
Location:
User is: OffLine
Re: EGR valve elimination...

ok i need to clear things up a bit here...
i have an 86' long box 2.5l and its kinda ruff, if i just push the accel. to bring up the rpm a bit say from idle(1000rpm) up to 1500-2000 it wants to die...get it to 2000 and up and its ok. its been overheated a bit too but i dont know how hot ive only got the dummie lites in it rite now,its due for a rebuild for sure but for know i just want it to run a lil better so if i take the egr off and cover the hole, its a good thing?
and i dont have to do anything else chip wise to it?
Old 02-15-2009, 07:02 PM   #47
Wire Splicin Fool :-)
 
lesterl's Avatar
 
Age: 34
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 8,691
Location: Harrisonville, MO
User is: OffLine
Re: EGR valve elimination...

Fabricator, start a new thread if you are having issues, they are discussing removing an EGR from an engine with known operation, if yours is not running propperly and it seems to have some oddities to it, start a new thread so we can discuss what your issues and needs are and this thread can still be about the possibilites of removing and deprogramming from the ECM the EGR valve. Thanks...
Old 02-16-2009, 09:03 AM   #48
Registered User
 
the_fabricator's Avatar
 
Age: 29
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 150
Location:
User is: OffLine
Re: EGR valve elimination...

Quote: Originally Posted by lesterl
Fabricator, start a new thread if you are having issues, they are discussing removing an EGR from an engine with known operation, if yours is not running propperly and it seems to have some oddities to it, start a new thread so we can discuss what your issues and needs are and this thread can still be about the possibilites of removing and deprogramming from the ECM the EGR valve. Thanks...
im sorry i didnt realize that this thread was strictly about ecu programing!
i was just curios if removing the egr and replacing w/ a cover plate would do good for my duke.
Old 02-16-2009, 11:55 AM   #49
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 98
Location:
User is: OffLine
Re: EGR valve elimination...

Quote: Originally Posted by Steady Eddie
====================
I would even go so far as to say, that, because an air/fuel mixture does not compress as easily as the inert exhaust
gas does, you *may* even see a slight improvement in compression...
would you happen to know what the compression on our cylinders is supposed to be?
Old 02-16-2009, 08:20 PM   #50
R/C Guru
 
92 s10 project's Avatar
 
Age: 26
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 617
Location: St Louis, MO
User is: OffLine
Re: EGR valve elimination...

9:1 if I remember right...
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the S-10 Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:12 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2011, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. SEO by vBSEO 3.2.0
SEO by vBSEO
vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.