Duke performance

litebulbwithfiero · 10-26-2009, 12:08 AM

Hi, I have an Iron Duke and would like to talk performance with you guys. The difference with my duke is that it is in a Fiero. Hopefully I am not breaking any rules by posting about this, but I would like to see your guys point of views on duke and power as compared to the Fiero world.

What do you guys consider good heads?
Fiero people seem to think that the casting #485-514 are the best stock heads

Do any of you guys run a multi-point efi setup?
I was thinking about doing this with megasquirt and ford 302 injectors, thoughts?

Know of any headers available?
I know some are available for a jeep something...
but I read on one site that they are not needed.
None the less, I plan on making my own set of long tube headers

Any other talk is also welcome

estin · 10-26-2009, 12:33 AM

I would go ahead and do the mege squirt, matter of fact i will be soon.
It is said that a header will NOT help a duke unless paired with a ported head,or a cam. I for one (tho i have no solid proof to base it on) think that to some extent is has to help...altho the s10 version is basically a header in stock form i think that by building a long tube you would gain SOME torque some being the key word...is it gunna make you fiero pop wheelies ? NO but It couldn hurt.
Now given that i dont know what the car exhaust looks like as compared to the s10 you may actually have all you need.
If you wanna go for the jeep header you wanna look into a 81-83' jeep cj they came with the duke.
If you wanna make power out of a duke get yourself a good TRUCK block,and save for a SD4 head There is one on ebay for a good price but it needed some machine work you will also need to do something about the shitty crank these engines have so click ont he sticky iron duke myths adn differances and read what stroker has to say.

lesterl · 10-26-2009, 12:42 AM

Try to get a Cosworth DOHC head for the thing? Good luck with that.....

estin · 10-26-2009, 12:45 AM

$$$$$$$$$$$$$ oh yea and alot of $$$$$$$$$$$

litebulbwithfiero · 10-26-2009, 12:58 AM

I am not talking race power here guys. I am just talking about making it peppier. As far as heads go, I want to know which of the iron duke heads are the best. Not SD4 or SBC heads. I won't be able to work on it till next summer. I am just trying to get things figured out. The MS2 system is something I will definitely get if only to mess around with. I figure I can make my own aluminum intake that will flow way better then stock, add the 302 injectors and get a throttle body good for 100% V.E. at 6500RPM. The Fiero also has a header style exhaust made of stainless. People on the Fiero forum suggest running cherry bombs.

I have a 1988 Fiero, duke and automatic trans. All stock and get 0-60 in just over 9 secs. I am curious how low I can get it to go.

Steady Eddie · 10-26-2009, 03:13 AM

bulb--

Welcome to the Forum!!

This is a bit of a switch, a Fiero Guy coming here for information.

I've been going out to the Fiero sites for a very long time, to do the same thing!!

Your Fiero is most valuable left stock as can be.

That said, I would recommend keeping ALL of the Original parts for it.

The strongest Iron Duke 151 cu. in. engine block is the 1988 and up S10 block. IIRC, it will fit in your engine bay, using the Fiero waterpump setup. None of the factory Fiero blocks have the cast-in cylinder webs that these truck motors have.

The strongest of the weak crankshafts are the '88 up S10 cranks with the extra mass of the oil pump drive gear. They can be made stronger by cyro treatment.

The best OE (IMHO) cylinder heads are the ones from a 1991-up, Code A, S10 truck.

In any case you should go to forged con rods and forged pistons, as they will live and not break, or (in the case of the rods) flex...and then break.

You should seriously consider going to a lower ratio rear end gear set, as your auto trans OE set is far too tall for any real acceleration.

litebulbwithfiero · 10-26-2009, 11:07 AM

Eddie, I have been lurking around here and seen you guys seem to have more of a handle on this then the Fiero community. When ever you post a thread about duke and performance you are told not to waste your time.

I really would like to find a head from a 91-93 s10, but they seem kinda hard to come by. Neither of the 2 junkyards I called had one. You said it needs to be from a code a, I was told it needs to be from a vin r.

I think for now I am just going to stick with my short block. It is the strongest of the Fieros.

As seen on this site, you can get the motor to 120-130 hp with minor things. With my set up, I think I should be able to get a little more.

In you opinion, what is the compression limit for the duke?

One last thing, I believe we can use the same cams, so what kind of cams would you guys suggest?

And when you say my Fiero is most valuable when left stock, what do you mean? Fieros aren't worth much.

Steady Eddie · 10-26-2009, 01:26 PM

bulb--

From a collector car point of view, your Fiero is a "keeper", best left all stock. It being a 1988 is a last full year issue, and they do not make them anymore. That is why I said to keep all the Original parts for it.

About the vin R vs. the vin A: The engines were made in different lengths, to be able to fit in the various engine bays and front wheel drives vs, rear wheel drives. The engine you have may be one of the "short" ones, and if so, you might be stuck with using the original head.

The 1984 Indy 500 Fiero "pace cars" were fitted with Super Duty heads, so I don't know.

Your Fiero may have roller hydraulic valve lifters, seeing how it IS a 1988, and if it does have the rollers AND if the S10 cam is an interchange, then the best cam is a Vin A cam...Comp Cams list ONE cam in their on-line catalog that will work with the factory PCM, not much of a choice.

litebulbwithfiero · 10-26-2009, 03:11 PM

The vin r is the length that we both have. Where the vin u is the shorter one.

As far as keeping it original, it is not in the best condition, has 127k miles on it, and is just a base coupe. When I get a Formula with T-tops, then I will keep it original and in the garage, only driving it for fun.

I do have hydraulic roller lifters, and have multiple after market cams. In the end if I need to I will order a custom grind one.

I will probable just through some bigger ratio roller rockers to get move valve lift. Maybe get some performance lifters so I don't loose valve lift through them.

As for the ecm, I plan to go with the Megasquirt 2, and run mpfi instead of the tbi, and I should be able to keep my DIS ignition too.

If I switch blocks, I would like to find one without force balancers, with DIS and with a harmonic balancer. I think the only block that fits those requirements is the 87 Fiero block.

Freek · 10-26-2009, 09:33 PM

I am under the I fluence that compression = power. And someone told me about a flat top piston that is available. Deck the heads I guess and have a custom grind on the cam. Also make a header, high-flow cat and a short pipe. I'm getting a rear mount 20gal tank so I can just run the exhaust straight out the drivers side before the wheel. That is just what I have gathered so far.

Of course you'll need to order forged parts and do some work to the intake. What kind of work can be done to it? Also I think tbichips has a chip for the duke. I have a 1992 so I have the best engine right?(other than sd). Also check summit for a felpro gasket. It's like 25$ and is said to stop valve cover leaking.

litebulbwithfiero · 10-26-2009, 10:09 PM

Yes felpro has a $25 valve cover gasket that is less likely to leak then the cork.

Compression does make power and improves gas mileage. But you have to be careful not to make your motor detonate. That requires retarding your timing which causes you to loose power and gas mileage.

I plan to make a header and run no cat. Just my higher that stock flowing muffler.

The 92 block may be the strongest, but not necessarily the best.

SD4 is not an iron duke and the intent of this thread is to talk Iron Dukes.

You can kinda port the stock manifold, but I plan on replacing mine with a custom one.

estin · 10-26-2009, 10:25 PM

If you are referring to my comment about using the sd4 head i understand that it is NOT a actual Duke part,but because you were asking for power I was simply pointing out the duke's weak points-Head-intake-crank.
I relize you are not after race power but the addition of the sd4 head alone would be more than enuff to satisfy you conservative needs,as well as shedding some weight,and possibly running kooler.
But if you wanna stick with factory parts then:Get your head ported,have bigger valves installed,cryo treat your crank.Get a custom cam grind (wild as you want if you do the MS)As far as you intake,aluminum is the way to go and it would be a super simple one to build. Port match everything,then build a nice header. After market roller valve train would help with frictional losses.
Once your this far you may as well get some under drive pulleys,and eliminate all unNEEDED accessories.Plan on spending some $$ tho.
I am with you on geting power outa these little guys.
I am trying to gather the parts for a 2.7ish stroker with crower rods,and after market pistons.I will top that with a custom header/turbo.
My said build will be for my duke powered samurai,once again I am all FOR making power out of this "boat anchor"

litebulbwithfiero · 10-26-2009, 10:51 PM

When I made the comment on the SD4, I was not replying to anyone specific, I just wanted any one reading that I want to make a powerful Duke. Once In start replacing the Dukes weak parts with Sd4 parts, I will end up with a SD4.

As far as eliminating stuff off the belt drive, all I have to eliminate is the ac compressor. Already have manual steering.

I think I got things about 75%ish of what I want to do. And the people on this sight have been a great help. I just finished reading through the duke facts and myth thread and see that I am not the only Fiero owner turning to you guys for help.

Just so it is written in the thread I think I am going to aim for 9.5:1 compression ratio.

And I noticed that there are two code a heads, 485 or 514, any one know which i better?

Keep the conversation up.

Thanks,
Josh

Freek · 10-26-2009, 11:32 PM

I want a duke as well rather than an sd4. I don't plan on making it all super powerful or anything. My block is said to be good for about 200hp, I'm not even looking for that. Maybe 160, but I want mp/g most of all. So I'm not looking for any serious mods. I'm starting small (exhaust, chip, gasket, etc...), my final product will not be a 2.5, I'm building a 4.3. This is to hold me off until then, plus it's going in a blazer later on.

litebulbwithfiero · 10-27-2009, 12:35 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Freek

I want a duke as well rather than an sd4. I don't plan on making it all super powerful or anything. My block is said to be good for about 200hp, I'm not even looking for that. Maybe 160, but I want mp/g most of all. So I'm not looking for any serious mods. I'm starting small (exhaust, chip, gasket, etc...), my final product will not be a 2.5, I'm building a 4.3. This is to hold me off until then, plus it's going in a blazer later on.

I think with the things you listed, you will fall short of 160HP. But you mentioned that you want good mph, so I don't think you want to aim that high anyways.

Shaddix · 10-27-2009, 02:05 PM

I highly doubt your going to get 160HP in your car. Actually, your looking closer to around 120. Its a 2.5L engine that doesnt take well to high RPM. Just leave it stock and put your money into a tuneup and your "new engine."

Why waste money when it drives just fine right now? Do you plan on racing a 4-cylinder iron duke fiero? Why not road race with it as is, considering the car is light enough and powerful enough to teach you how to drive. I am sure you are not a better driver then the car is capable of doing stock...

litebulbwithfiero · 10-27-2009, 05:26 PM

Why don't you slow down and reread the thread. I never said I was aiming for 160HP, that was someone else. I am aiming for 135-140 HP which should be very achievable with the things I listed. I am not only looking to make more power, but I am going to try to get better gas mileage too. And I have been thinking about autox'ing it, but it won't pass for stock class, and I don't stand a chance in a mod class. Not to mention it is currently an automatic.

I am in no way happy with how it runs now, it runs rich at low RPM and lean at mid to high RPM, and I can not find a reason why. I already have did a "tune up" on it or I wouldn't even think of trying to make more power with it. I don't think I really want another engine, maybe I will change my mind after I give this a try, but it will be fun for me to do.

Also it is not powerful enough as is to teach someone how to drive in a race scenario. It will teach you very little about throttle control. I can run the curves at the college faster then other people when I am not even trying, and they are trying their hardest

Shaddix · 10-27-2009, 07:31 PM

Interesting, as I have riden in several of them before and they arent bad at all. Extremely fun in the corners. Maybe your automatic is lacking, but a 4 or 5 speed 4 cylinder car is somewhat decent and quite fun.

You want to spend money on a custom intake manifold, header, exhaust, possibly head work, custom cam, and more for 135-140HP at the crank? Your looking at 100HP to the wheels. Is the $1000-$1500 well spent? Doubtful.

litebulbwithfiero · 10-27-2009, 07:46 PM

I mentioned that I am also doing it for something to do. The Intake will be made from aluminum and to for tig welding aluminum practice. Same with the header. It will be made by me out of either stainless or mild steel. TIG welding practice. Head will be a rebuilt s10 head that will only be port matched to the gasket. I will rebuild the head myself. I haven't done much figuring on the cam so I can't say much about it.

I will be looking at like a 40% increase in power so it will make quite a difference.

You said you thought these cars were fun with 80HP at the wheels, so why wouldn't more be more fun?

I do have plans of swapping out to a manual trans, just haven't figured out which one yet. I was thinking of using a 6 speed, but people told me that the 6th gear would be too much for the duke. I haven't seen any evidence, just people talking to be heard. I will have to do some research to figure if it is true or not.

I already have a complete manual set up sitting in the garage, but it is a 4 speed with a 4.10:1 diff, which would be great for acceleration and autox, but would kill highway gas mileage.

litebulbwithfiero · 10-27-2009, 10:29 PM

Quick question. For you with dukes and manual trans, do you know what you rear axle ratio is. From what I can gather the 5th gear ratio is 0.72:1 and the rear axle might be 3.23:1 which would make the final gear ratio 2.3256:1.

The 6 speed's final gear ratio is 2.201:1, so not much different. Meaning that the Duke should be okay with it and the expected people taking just to talk, where in fact talking just to talk.

Let me know if I need any corrections on this thread, but mainly this post

lesterl · 10-28-2009, 12:06 AM

Mine was 3.73 in the rear with a 5 speed and the 2.5 (1989).

Some of the Fieros came with a 2.8l and could have a 3.4l direct swapped in place, just a thought...

As far as running lean/ rich might check fuel pressure your pump may be on its way out.

litebulbwithfiero · 10-28-2009, 12:15 AM

I know all about engines that can be swapped in the fiero. Those may be an option at a later date, but not what I am looking to do right now. The main thing I want to do is mess with the megasquirt system. And to justify that in my head, I need to make more power and not hurt mileage too bad, but I plan to improve it. For the multi port fuel injection I have planned, I will have to upgrade fuel pumps to I believe a corvette pump. This will come in handy if I ever do swap a V6 in. Same with the 6 speed I am debating on. It will be paired real nice with a v6 if I swap one in. Even the megasquirt will find a home on my Blazer if I decide to swap a V6 in the Fiero, so it is not like I will be out a lot of money. The only money I plan on spending is a head, refresh the motor, some aluminum, some stainless. That's about all that I won't be able to use on anything else I own. But I am sure I will be able to sell the intake and header.

Freek · 10-28-2009, 01:21 AM

Yeah I agree with him. I think it's getting tiring, the doubt in the forum that is. Everyone is either "it can't be done" or "it's not worth it" and I think he created this thread for those who can help.

I'm just talking out of my ass here. I want to run a turbo, mainly just to feed the exhaust through again. I'll be running a standard T-5 with kits. My current rear end will hold up, plus it locks!=) Just figured it would be nice to get some ideas out there. Is there an upgraded clutch/shift kit for the T5? Would one from a 4.3 be stronger?

Also I hear that CAI does absolutely nothing for the duke lol

Shaddix · 10-28-2009, 04:38 AM

Well for one, I havent seen ANY pictures of any of this custom work or your past projects. Or of the current project vehicle. Secondly, the forum is full of peoples useless ideas and turbo questions and all sorts of stuff that will never happen. Most people dont even have much cash to put into their rig in the first place. Let alone a FULL tune-up. Yet they dream and start huge 25+ post topics on something they are never going to do or have a clue about.

Id love for you to post back a page full of fiero pictures and a built duke motor in it. It just doesnt happen much.

estin · 10-28-2009, 04:48 AM

^ Hey man,thats a little harsh ^

litebulbwithfiero · 10-28-2009, 11:27 AM

Even if something doesn't happen. What is the problem talking about it? If you don't want in the conversation, then stay out. I am planning to do this next spring/ summer. So things can change in that amount of time. Maybe I will receive a nice deal on a 3.8sc with Fiero specific mounts, doubt that. Maybe The car will get in a crash and be totaled, I hope not. But what I am getting at is don't get your hopes up super high to see this, it may not happen. But as of now, it will.

Shaddix · 10-28-2009, 02:07 PM

Last post in this useless thread for me. Why dont you try looking through hundreds of posts only to find out that 99% of poeple with dukes ask a bunch of questions about things that dont barely do anythng and ask how much power it will add. Adding a damn exhaust header and pipe is NOT going to increase power. You will LOSE power due to no backpressure. Then I am reading on how your making some miracle custom TIG welded intake manifold with ford fuel injectors. Then a custom throttle body. Then custom fuel injection with a custom built megasquirt setup.

The whole setup that you just made you think that it is now 100% volumetric efficient. The only engine that is 100% V.E. or better is something that is blown. If you think a duke can get 100% V.E., you need to go back to ASE mechanics class 101.

If you could truely do all the things you say, you wouldnt NEED to come to a forum looking for help. It would be done, and you would be telling US how to make it work.

litebulbwithfiero · 10-28-2009, 02:25 PM

I think you need to go back to English class and read how to learn. The 100% V.E. thing was to figure out what size throttle body I need. Not saying the engine will reach 100% V.E.

The Exhaust will have some back pressure. I will lose low end torque with the lose of back pressure, but it will help with mid to high RPM power.

Why does an intake manifold have to be magical to use Ford injectors? You can buy injector bungs at summit or jegs, then all you have to do is mill a couple flanges and weld some tubes between them.

I will not be making a T.B., but finding a stock one.

Megasquirt has been to plenty of cars to where it has been proven. Enough said

The things you listed are not the things I am asking about in this thread. Those are all none duke things. I was asking about duke specific problems. Like which head is know to flow the best. I was also wondering if any one had the same thoughts as me because no is perfect and I wanted to make sure my thoughts were correct.

And please do stay out of this thread as you are in no way contributing to it. I don't care if you disagree with me, post it in a constructive matter, and we can figure it out. Instead of just beng another of those ignorant people that just rag on people for thinking things out that are different then the norm.

estin · 10-28-2009, 05:26 PM

If I could suggest a throttle body you may look into the ford torus with the v-6,
I have seen alot of people run them with great result's.Now it is on the small side in the world of throttle body BUT it was designed for 3.0 ^ so it should do fine for a duke with a roof of 5500-6000RPM,and it's smaller size will help with low end "snappyness" I think the 302 injectors are a great idea, my only concern would be they are designed for a N/A 5.0 which will net you enuff fuel for a N/A 2.5 (ISH) so if you ever decide to booste to it you may fall short of the tables you need and get a leanout condition,If you always stay N/A your would be fine.Now i have not figured all your palns on the "table" so I don't know any of this to be fact.If you have not already you may look into the MS site and they have a form you can fill out to help you get an idea of what you need.Also could i ask why you are going with the MS2 ? I would stick with the MS-extra because for the duke I don't really think you will need x-tau, stepper motor idle valves, or any of that other stuff.
Will you be building your unit/testor or ordering them assembled ?

litebulbwithfiero · 10-28-2009, 10:05 PM

I am going with 302 injectors because I have them. I have no plans for boost, but if I ever did I could get higher flowing one relatively cheap.

I was talking to a kid I know who is into probes. I guess the probe has a 2.5L v6, so I was going to look into its throttle body.

I was going to go with MS2 so I can run my DIS ignition. Although I don't know much about the MS systems, I saw that MS2 can run m DIS and 4 injectors so I was Sold.

I have learned how to figure out fuel needs, PPS, and PW. Assuming MS is like any other controller, then it shouldn't be too bad. I could just set up some tables on excel and have it work it all out for me. But I would like to take a look at the form you are referring too. In case I can't find it, do you have a link?

Like I said, I am not well learned on the MS stuff specifically. If you think I am going to be getting the wrong stuff let me know and why. I do have experience filling fuel tables on a Haltech controller.

I plan on buying the stuff not assembled, and have a friend of mine solder it up for me.

lesterl · 10-28-2009, 10:39 PM

Wonder if you could run 4 coil packs (1 for each cylinder, or do a wasted spark 2 coil setup like on the 2.2l's?) Since you are doing Mega Squirt anyway.

estin · 10-28-2009, 10:42 PM

Well,the msI-extra can run the EDIS as well.For it you would only need the ms1 extra itself,the flyback board if your injectors are low impedance,and I would recommend the relay board as it makes life way simpler.This link should give you all you need.However when i did my last one MS could only fire "batch" instead of "multi" tho that wont really matter,I thought i would let you know. I would also like to add your gunna want to get the stem v2.2,a tuning cable.

litebulbwithfiero · 10-28-2009, 10:53 PM

lesterl
Dis= waste spark with 2 coils

estin
Is there any reason why I couldn't run MS2?
It just seems better to go with the newer one that can run what I want instead of going with the older one with updates to do it.

I think I need to figure out what my stock trigger wheel is too, to see if it is MS compatible.

Also I plan on running GM DIS, EDIS is usually used to describe the ford setup.

Looks like I will have to spend many more hours looking at this MS stuff to help understand it better. I will also try to find info on my stock trigger wheel and see if the 302 injectors are low impedance or not.

Thanks for the help figuring this out estin.
Oh, and I think you forgot the link

lesterl · 10-28-2009, 10:56 PM

Trigger wheel? You talking about the Pickup Coil in the distributor? Thanks for the info on the DIS! :-)

litebulbwithfiero · 10-28-2009, 11:03 PM

No, on my Fiero it came stock with DIS. Their is a trigger wheel next to the oil pump drive gear on the crank

estin · 10-28-2009, 11:10 PM

Damn,i feel dumb...heres the link http://www.megamanual.com/mtabcon.htm
As far as running the ms2 there is no reason not to it's just more $$ and i dont feel it necessary for the duke,although it certainly won't hurt it.On second thought I did a aircooled vw,so you may be ahead to do the ms2 and not have to do any upgrades.
And with the DIS/EDIS i am only familiar with the Ford version as it seems to be the most simple,and cheapest to replace if needed.
You will find as you further your research that everybody that does MS is VERY helpful,and friendly and NONE will have a negative thing to say about what you are doing...because in a nutshell aren't we all trying to update/make better/more efficient,and reliable out of something thats been forgotten ?

Freek · 10-28-2009, 11:28 PM

I must ask, what you all are talking about?

I must also add that the only reason I want to up the performance to my duke is because it's cheaper than the vortec build I'll be starting soon! Plus my buddy is trying to hook me up with a job at Autozone! Discounted price correct?

Anyways I have always attempted to stray from computers in general because it's how I was raised, but I am slowly learning that fuel injections is just as good and even better in certain fields. So I want to learn... Anyone want to fillme in with the basics lol?

lesterl · 10-28-2009, 11:51 PM

They are talking about an aftermarket computer system for a Duke in a Pontiac Fierro, not an S10, it is kinda different than a stock S10 obviously.

litebulbwithfiero · 10-28-2009, 11:54 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Freek

I must ask, what you all are talking about?

I must also add that the only reason I want to up the performance to my duke is because it's cheaper than the vortec build I'll be starting soon! Plus my buddy is trying to hook me up with a job at Autozone! Discounted price correct?

Anyways I have always attempted stray from computers in general because it's how I was raised, but I am slowly learning that fuel injections is just as good and even better in certain fields. So I want to learn... Anyone want to fillme in with the basics lol?

We are talking about megasquirting an Iron Duke. If you want to learn about it check out the link in the post before yours. But be ready to have your brain turn to mush. There is a lot of info in just a few paragraphs, let alone the whole reading and all the links it gives you to even more reading.

Quote: Originally Posted by lesterl

They are talking about an aftermarket computer system for a Duke in a Pontiac Fiero, not an S10, it is kinda different than a stock S10 obviously.

Not that much different. The main difference between the Fiero and S10 Duke is the ignition set up. Everything else we are currently talking about is custom and applies to both.

estin, I wish you were lived in Michigan so we could work together on the ms and duke thing. I swear, the more I read on it, the more I begin thinking it will put me in over my head.

But I never was much of a reader or instructions kinda guy. I learn by seeing it done or just doing it.

estin · 10-28-2009, 11:58 PM

Basics ? Ok,not to thread hack but..... I to was a die hard carb guy untill i found Mega squirt. Mega squirt or MS is a stand alone computer system that YOU program,it is endlessly programmable and is DIRT CHEEP. Dont let the cost fool you tho, as it is a lethal FI system. For the most part it utilizes already made parts IE. any injector you please,throttle bodies off of whatever you choose tho the 3.0 ford tourus,and the LS1 style's are the most common.It can control fuel,spark,OR both if thats the way you set it up.
For spark most people tent to use the Ford EDIS system or Electronic Distributorless Ignition System-this is a 32-1 trigger wheel (wheel with 32 teeth,and 1 gap)and a magnetic pickup that the MS reads to tell timeing It is a highly accurate system and all the parts to make it work can be found used in a junk yard,or new at ANY auto house for very cheep. The system is pre-programmed to run GM temp,maf,and other key senors so it is plug and play.You can get the MS computer and necessary parts pre assembled for a good price straight from the website,OR from them in kit form in which you solder up yourself.Once you have everything installed,and tested you plug in your laptop,zero out,and set all your values and fire the engine,on your computer it will look like every gauge you could ever want and will tell you exactly what you engine is doing,down to the T.Once in this mode you simply drive and it takes a "datalog" if thats how your setup(you then go home read that and tune """"""") or you have a buddy drive and you addjust to what YOUR engine wants. Here is a link that can get you started on prices,and links to further you knowledge http://diyautotune.com/

estin · 10-29-2009, 12:02 AM

Yes,MS is a custom/universal deal. Here is another link that you can see what all it has been applied to. http://msruns.com/

lesterl · 10-29-2009, 12:06 AM

Do you have a knock sensor? Can you add one?

litebulbwithfiero · 10-29-2009, 12:13 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by lesterl

Do you have a knock sensor? Can you add one?

No, I don't have a knock sensor.

You could add one, but it is not easy at all. They work on vibrations, so you need to find a certain frequency that detonation will make, but nothing else. Then you have to find a place to put it on the engine that will sense the detonation.

That is explaining it real simply.

lesterl · 10-29-2009, 09:42 PM

Well, yeah I know what and how a knock sensor works, just wondered if there were provisions for a knock sensor in the programming/ hardware of the MS system.

estin · 10-29-2009, 10:19 PM

You could program your cigarette lighter into mega squirt.
Seriously,it is capable of running all the obvious stuff plus it can kick you e-fans on/off at a set point,it can control boost,anti detonation fluid whenever needed.( the actual term has eluded me as of now) It can do all kinds of really tricky stuff !

lesterl · 10-29-2009, 10:31 PM

kool....

dimerunner88 · 10-31-2009, 01:52 AM

i hate to be a negative nancy but...iron dukes are made to be an economy motor and anything you do performance wise will cost you more than its worth. i tried to make my old one powerful but gave up after minimal gains with huge investment. my stockish 2.8 runs circles around my old non-stock 2.5.

estin · 10-31-2009, 09:43 PM

opinions are like ass holes,we all have them but in a case like this I nor the O/P want to see yours.No afence but good educational threads get ruined by guys like you way to often.I dont care that you feel the duke is not worth the time to work on.If a person wants to do it they are gunna no matter what you say....My idea of gains vs. cost may be different than yours so If I throw $2000 into mine and only gain 50 HP/Tq.
Maybe that was worth it to me.....after all how many people can pop the hood and say....."it's just an old boat anchor" ?

Shaddix · 11-01-2009, 04:52 AM

Its just that, most people that SAY they are gonna do something dont do shit. If he posted a picture of his duke torn apart and a megasquirt ECU and wiring nearby then Id lisyen to him. Otherwise its a 12 year old just talkin out their ass with no cash.

estin · 11-01-2009, 07:55 AM

Well,if thats the way ya'll see it where is dimerunner88's "built" 2.5 that caint hang with a "stockish" 2.8 ?
Once again if you don't like whats being talked about don't read the post.
If he,I,lesterl,and freek are having a freindly CONSTRUCTIVE conversatoin and all of us are happy with then subject then leave it to the O/P to say who's opinion matters

10-26-2009, 12:08 AM	#1
litebulbwithfiero Registered User Age: 19 Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 24 Location: User is: OffLine	Duke performance Hi, I have an Iron Duke and would like to talk performance with you guys. The difference with my duke is that it is in a Fiero. Hopefully I am not breaking any rules by posting about this, but I would like to see your guys point of views on duke and power as compared to the Fiero world. What do you guys consider good heads? Fiero people seem to think that the casting #485-514 are the best stock heads Do any of you guys run a multi-point efi setup? I was thinking about doing this with megasquirt and ford 302 injectors, thoughts? Know of any headers available? I know some are available for a jeep something... but I read on one site that they are not needed. None the less, I plan on making my own set of long tube headers Any other talk is also welcome
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10-26-2009, 12:33 AM	#2
estin Registered User Age: 19 Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 112 Location: User is: Online	Re: Duke performance I would go ahead and do the mege squirt, matter of fact i will be soon. It is said that a header will NOT help a duke unless paired with a ported head,or a cam. I for one (tho i have no solid proof to base it on) think that to some extent is has to help...altho the s10 version is basically a header in stock form i think that by building a long tube you would gain SOME torque some being the key word...is it gunna make you fiero pop wheelies ? NO but It couldn hurt. Now given that i dont know what the car exhaust looks like as compared to the s10 you may actually have all you need. If you wanna go for the jeep header you wanna look into a 81-83' jeep cj they came with the duke. If you wanna make power out of a duke get yourself a good TRUCK block,and save for a SD4 head There is one on ebay for a good price but it needed some machine work you will also need to do something about the shitty crank these engines have so click ont he sticky iron duke myths adn differances and read what stroker has to say. Last edited by estin : 10-26-2009 at 12:35 AM.
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10-26-2009, 12:42 AM	#3
lesterl Wire Splicin Fool :-) Age: 30 Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 4,402 Location: Harrisonville, MO User is: OffLine	Re: Duke performance Try to get a Cosworth DOHC head for the thing? Good luck with that.....
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10-26-2009, 12:45 AM	#4
estin Registered User Age: 19 Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 112 Location: User is: Online	Re: Duke performance $$$$$$$$$$$$$ oh yea and alot of $$$$$$$$$$$
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10-26-2009, 12:58 AM	#5
litebulbwithfiero Registered User Age: 19 Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 24 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: Duke performance I am not talking race power here guys. I am just talking about making it peppier. As far as heads go, I want to know which of the iron duke heads are the best. Not SD4 or SBC heads. I won't be able to work on it till next summer. I am just trying to get things figured out. The MS2 system is something I will definitely get if only to mess around with. I figure I can make my own aluminum intake that will flow way better then stock, add the 302 injectors and get a throttle body good for 100% V.E. at 6500RPM. The Fiero also has a header style exhaust made of stainless. People on the Fiero forum suggest running cherry bombs. I have a 1988 Fiero, duke and automatic trans. All stock and get 0-60 in just over 9 secs. I am curious how low I can get it to go. Last edited by litebulbwithfiero : 10-26-2009 at 01:00 AM.
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10-26-2009, 03:13 AM	#6
Steady Eddie Sending Big Oil a Message Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,011 Location: The Great Pacific Northwet User is: OffLine	Re: Duke performance bulb-- Welcome to the Forum!! This is a bit of a switch, a Fiero Guy coming here for information. I've been going out to the Fiero sites for a very long time, to do the same thing!! Your Fiero is most valuable left stock as can be. That said, I would recommend keeping ALL of the Original parts for it. The strongest Iron Duke 151 cu. in. engine block is the 1988 and up S10 block. IIRC, it will fit in your engine bay, using the Fiero waterpump setup. None of the factory Fiero blocks have the cast-in cylinder webs that these truck motors have. The strongest of the weak crankshafts are the '88 up S10 cranks with the extra mass of the oil pump drive gear. They can be made stronger by cyro treatment. The best OE (IMHO) cylinder heads are the ones from a 1991-up, Code A, S10 truck. In any case you should go to forged con rods and forged pistons, as they will live and not break, or (in the case of the rods) flex...and then break. You should seriously consider going to a lower ratio rear end gear set, as your auto trans OE set is far too tall for any real acceleration. Last edited by Steady Eddie : 10-26-2009 at 03:16 AM.
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10-26-2009, 11:07 AM	#7
litebulbwithfiero Registered User Age: 19 Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 24 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: Duke performance Eddie, I have been lurking around here and seen you guys seem to have more of a handle on this then the Fiero community. When ever you post a thread about duke and performance you are told not to waste your time. I really would like to find a head from a 91-93 s10, but they seem kinda hard to come by. Neither of the 2 junkyards I called had one. You said it needs to be from a code a, I was told it needs to be from a vin r. I think for now I am just going to stick with my short block. It is the strongest of the Fieros. As seen on this site, you can get the motor to 120-130 hp with minor things. With my set up, I think I should be able to get a little more. In you opinion, what is the compression limit for the duke? One last thing, I believe we can use the same cams, so what kind of cams would you guys suggest? And when you say my Fiero is most valuable when left stock, what do you mean? Fieros aren't worth much. Last edited by litebulbwithfiero : 10-26-2009 at 11:10 AM.
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10-26-2009, 01:26 PM	#8
Steady Eddie Sending Big Oil a Message Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,011 Location: The Great Pacific Northwet User is: OffLine	Re: Duke performance bulb-- From a collector car point of view, your Fiero is a "keeper", best left all stock. It being a 1988 is a last full year issue, and they do not make them anymore. That is why I said to keep all the Original parts for it. About the vin R vs. the vin A: The engines were made in different lengths, to be able to fit in the various engine bays and front wheel drives vs, rear wheel drives. The engine you have may be one of the "short" ones, and if so, you might be stuck with using the original head. The 1984 Indy 500 Fiero "pace cars" were fitted with Super Duty heads, so I don't know. Your Fiero may have roller hydraulic valve lifters, seeing how it IS a 1988, and if it does have the rollers AND if the S10 cam is an interchange, then the best cam is a Vin A cam...Comp Cams list ONE cam in their on-line catalog that will work with the factory PCM, not much of a choice.
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10-26-2009, 03:11 PM	#9
litebulbwithfiero Registered User Age: 19 Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 24 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: Duke performance The vin r is the length that we both have. Where the vin u is the shorter one. As far as keeping it original, it is not in the best condition, has 127k miles on it, and is just a base coupe. When I get a Formula with T-tops, then I will keep it original and in the garage, only driving it for fun. I do have hydraulic roller lifters, and have multiple after market cams. In the end if I need to I will order a custom grind one. I will probable just through some bigger ratio roller rockers to get move valve lift. Maybe get some performance lifters so I don't loose valve lift through them. As for the ecm, I plan to go with the Megasquirt 2, and run mpfi instead of the tbi, and I should be able to keep my DIS ignition too. If I switch blocks, I would like to find one without force balancers, with DIS and with a harmonic balancer. I think the only block that fits those requirements is the 87 Fiero block.
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10-26-2009, 09:33 PM	#10
Freek Shred The Shit Age: 17 Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 663 Location: Indianapolis, IN User is: OffLine	Re: Duke performance I am under the I fluence that compression = power. And someone told me about a flat top piston that is available. Deck the heads I guess and have a custom grind on the cam. Also make a header, high-flow cat and a short pipe. I'm getting a rear mount 20gal tank so I can just run the exhaust straight out the drivers side before the wheel. That is just what I have gathered so far. Of course you'll need to order forged parts and do some work to the intake. What kind of work can be done to it? Also I think tbichips has a chip for the duke. I have a 1992 so I have the best engine right?(other than sd). Also check summit for a felpro gasket. It's like 25$ and is said to stop valve cover leaking.
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10-26-2009, 10:09 PM	#11
litebulbwithfiero Registered User Age: 19 Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 24 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: Duke performance Yes felpro has a $25 valve cover gasket that is less likely to leak then the cork. Compression does make power and improves gas mileage. But you have to be careful not to make your motor detonate. That requires retarding your timing which causes you to loose power and gas mileage. I plan to make a header and run no cat. Just my higher that stock flowing muffler. The 92 block may be the strongest, but not necessarily the best. SD4 is not an iron duke and the intent of this thread is to talk Iron Dukes. You can kinda port the stock manifold, but I plan on replacing mine with a custom one.
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10-26-2009, 10:25 PM	#12
estin Registered User Age: 19 Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 112 Location: User is: Online	Re: Duke performance If you are referring to my comment about using the sd4 head i understand that it is NOT a actual Duke part,but because you were asking for power I was simply pointing out the duke's weak points-Head-intake-crank. I relize you are not after race power but the addition of the sd4 head alone would be more than enuff to satisfy you conservative needs,as well as shedding some weight,and possibly running kooler. But if you wanna stick with factory parts then:Get your head ported,have bigger valves installed,cryo treat your crank.Get a custom cam grind (wild as you want if you do the MS)As far as you intake,aluminum is the way to go and it would be a super simple one to build. Port match everything,then build a nice header. After market roller valve train would help with frictional losses. Once your this far you may as well get some under drive pulleys,and eliminate all unNEEDED accessories.Plan on spending some $$ tho. I am with you on geting power outa these little guys. I am trying to gather the parts for a 2.7ish stroker with crower rods,and after market pistons.I will top that with a custom header/turbo. My said build will be for my duke powered samurai,once again I am all FOR making power out of this "boat anchor"
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10-26-2009, 10:51 PM	#13
litebulbwithfiero Registered User Age: 19 Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 24 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: Duke performance When I made the comment on the SD4, I was not replying to anyone specific, I just wanted any one reading that I want to make a powerful Duke. Once In start replacing the Dukes weak parts with Sd4 parts, I will end up with a SD4. As far as eliminating stuff off the belt drive, all I have to eliminate is the ac compressor. Already have manual steering. I think I got things about 75%ish of what I want to do. And the people on this sight have been a great help. I just finished reading through the duke facts and myth thread and see that I am not the only Fiero owner turning to you guys for help. Just so it is written in the thread I think I am going to aim for 9.5:1 compression ratio. And I noticed that there are two code a heads, 485 or 514, any one know which i better? Keep the conversation up. Thanks, Josh Last edited by litebulbwithfiero : 10-26-2009 at 10:54 PM.
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10-26-2009, 11:32 PM	#14
Freek Shred The Shit Age: 17 Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 663 Location: Indianapolis, IN User is: OffLine	Re: Duke performance I want a duke as well rather than an sd4. I don't plan on making it all super powerful or anything. My block is said to be good for about 200hp, I'm not even looking for that. Maybe 160, but I want mp/g most of all. So I'm not looking for any serious mods. I'm starting small (exhaust, chip, gasket, etc...), my final product will not be a 2.5, I'm building a 4.3. This is to hold me off until then, plus it's going in a blazer later on.
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10-27-2009, 12:35 PM	#15
litebulbwithfiero Registered User Age: 19 Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 24 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: Duke performance Quote: Originally Posted by Freek I want a duke as well rather than an sd4. I don't plan on making it all super powerful or anything. My block is said to be good for about 200hp, I'm not even looking for that. Maybe 160, but I want mp/g most of all. So I'm not looking for any serious mods. I'm starting small (exhaust, chip, gasket, etc...), my final product will not be a 2.5, I'm building a 4.3. This is to hold me off until then, plus it's going in a blazer later on. I think with the things you listed, you will fall short of 160HP. But you mentioned that you want good mph, so I don't think you want to aim that high anyways.
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10-27-2009, 02:05 PM	#16
Shaddix Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 148 Location: Astoria, Oregon User is: OffLine	Re: Duke performance I highly doubt your going to get 160HP in your car. Actually, your looking closer to around 120. Its a 2.5L engine that doesnt take well to high RPM. Just leave it stock and put your money into a tuneup and your "new engine." Why waste money when it drives just fine right now? Do you plan on racing a 4-cylinder iron duke fiero? Why not road race with it as is, considering the car is light enough and powerful enough to teach you how to drive. I am sure you are not a better driver then the car is capable of doing stock...
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10-27-2009, 05:26 PM	#17
litebulbwithfiero Registered User Age: 19 Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 24 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: Duke performance Why don't you slow down and reread the thread. I never said I was aiming for 160HP, that was someone else. I am aiming for 135-140 HP which should be very achievable with the things I listed. I am not only looking to make more power, but I am going to try to get better gas mileage too. And I have been thinking about autox'ing it, but it won't pass for stock class, and I don't stand a chance in a mod class. Not to mention it is currently an automatic. I am in no way happy with how it runs now, it runs rich at low RPM and lean at mid to high RPM, and I can not find a reason why. I already have did a "tune up" on it or I wouldn't even think of trying to make more power with it. I don't think I really want another engine, maybe I will change my mind after I give this a try, but it will be fun for me to do. Also it is not powerful enough as is to teach someone how to drive in a race scenario. It will teach you very little about throttle control. I can run the curves at the college faster then other people when I am not even trying, and they are trying their hardest Last edited by litebulbwithfiero : 10-27-2009 at 05:33 PM.
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10-27-2009, 07:31 PM	#18
Shaddix Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 148 Location: Astoria, Oregon User is: OffLine	Re: Duke performance Interesting, as I have riden in several of them before and they arent bad at all. Extremely fun in the corners. Maybe your automatic is lacking, but a 4 or 5 speed 4 cylinder car is somewhat decent and quite fun. You want to spend money on a custom intake manifold, header, exhaust, possibly head work, custom cam, and more for 135-140HP at the crank? Your looking at 100HP to the wheels. Is the $1000-$1500 well spent? Doubtful.
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10-27-2009, 07:46 PM	#19
litebulbwithfiero Registered User Age: 19 Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 24 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: Duke performance I mentioned that I am also doing it for something to do. The Intake will be made from aluminum and to for tig welding aluminum practice. Same with the header. It will be made by me out of either stainless or mild steel. TIG welding practice. Head will be a rebuilt s10 head that will only be port matched to the gasket. I will rebuild the head myself. I haven't done much figuring on the cam so I can't say much about it. I will be looking at like a 40% increase in power so it will make quite a difference. You said you thought these cars were fun with 80HP at the wheels, so why wouldn't more be more fun? I do have plans of swapping out to a manual trans, just haven't figured out which one yet. I was thinking of using a 6 speed, but people told me that the 6th gear would be too much for the duke. I haven't seen any evidence, just people talking to be heard. I will have to do some research to figure if it is true or not. I already have a complete manual set up sitting in the garage, but it is a 4 speed with a 4.10:1 diff, which would be great for acceleration and autox, but would kill highway gas mileage. Last edited by litebulbwithfiero : 10-27-2009 at 07:48 PM.
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10-27-2009, 10:29 PM	#20
litebulbwithfiero Registered User Age: 19 Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 24 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: Duke performance Quick question. For you with dukes and manual trans, do you know what you rear axle ratio is. From what I can gather the 5th gear ratio is 0.72:1 and the rear axle might be 3.23:1 which would make the final gear ratio 2.3256:1. The 6 speed's final gear ratio is 2.201:1, so not much different. Meaning that the Duke should be okay with it and the expected people taking just to talk, where in fact talking just to talk. Let me know if I need any corrections on this thread, but mainly this post
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10-28-2009, 12:06 AM	#21
lesterl Wire Splicin Fool :-) Age: 30 Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 4,402 Location: Harrisonville, MO User is: OffLine	Re: Duke performance Mine was 3.73 in the rear with a 5 speed and the 2.5 (1989). Some of the Fieros came with a 2.8l and could have a 3.4l direct swapped in place, just a thought... As far as running lean/ rich might check fuel pressure your pump may be on its way out.
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10-28-2009, 12:15 AM	#22
litebulbwithfiero Registered User Age: 19 Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 24 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: Duke performance I know all about engines that can be swapped in the fiero. Those may be an option at a later date, but not what I am looking to do right now. The main thing I want to do is mess with the megasquirt system. And to justify that in my head, I need to make more power and not hurt mileage too bad, but I plan to improve it. For the multi port fuel injection I have planned, I will have to upgrade fuel pumps to I believe a corvette pump. This will come in handy if I ever do swap a V6 in. Same with the 6 speed I am debating on. It will be paired real nice with a v6 if I swap one in. Even the megasquirt will find a home on my Blazer if I decide to swap a V6 in the Fiero, so it is not like I will be out a lot of money. The only money I plan on spending is a head, refresh the motor, some aluminum, some stainless. That's about all that I won't be able to use on anything else I own. But I am sure I will be able to sell the intake and header.
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10-28-2009, 01:21 AM	#23
Freek Shred The Shit Age: 17 Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 663 Location: Indianapolis, IN User is: OffLine	Re: Duke performance Yeah I agree with him. I think it's getting tiring, the doubt in the forum that is. Everyone is either "it can't be done" or "it's not worth it" and I think he created this thread for those who can help. I'm just talking out of my ass here. I want to run a turbo, mainly just to feed the exhaust through again. I'll be running a standard T-5 with kits. My current rear end will hold up, plus it locks!=) Just figured it would be nice to get some ideas out there. Is there an upgraded clutch/shift kit for the T5? Would one from a 4.3 be stronger? Also I hear that CAI does absolutely nothing for the duke lol
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10-28-2009, 04:38 AM	#24
Shaddix Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 148 Location: Astoria, Oregon User is: OffLine	Re: Duke performance Well for one, I havent seen ANY pictures of any of this custom work or your past projects. Or of the current project vehicle. Secondly, the forum is full of peoples useless ideas and turbo questions and all sorts of stuff that will never happen. Most people dont even have much cash to put into their rig in the first place. Let alone a FULL tune-up. Yet they dream and start huge 25+ post topics on something they are never going to do or have a clue about. Id love for you to post back a page full of fiero pictures and a built duke motor in it. It just doesnt happen much.
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10-28-2009, 04:48 AM	#25
estin Registered User Age: 19 Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 112 Location: User is: Online	Re: Duke performance ^ Hey man,thats a little harsh ^
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10-28-2009, 11:27 AM	#26
litebulbwithfiero Registered User Age: 19 Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 24 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: Duke performance Even if something doesn't happen. What is the problem talking about it? If you don't want in the conversation, then stay out. I am planning to do this next spring/ summer. So things can change in that amount of time. Maybe I will receive a nice deal on a 3.8sc with Fiero specific mounts, doubt that. Maybe The car will get in a crash and be totaled, I hope not. But what I am getting at is don't get your hopes up super high to see this, it may not happen. But as of now, it will.
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10-28-2009, 02:07 PM	#27
Shaddix Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 148 Location: Astoria, Oregon User is: OffLine	Re: Duke performance Last post in this useless thread for me. Why dont you try looking through hundreds of posts only to find out that 99% of poeple with dukes ask a bunch of questions about things that dont barely do anythng and ask how much power it will add. Adding a damn exhaust header and pipe is NOT going to increase power. You will LOSE power due to no backpressure. Then I am reading on how your making some miracle custom TIG welded intake manifold with ford fuel injectors. Then a custom throttle body. Then custom fuel injection with a custom built megasquirt setup. The whole setup that you just made you think that it is now 100% volumetric efficient. The only engine that is 100% V.E. or better is something that is blown. If you think a duke can get 100% V.E., you need to go back to ASE mechanics class 101. If you could truely do all the things you say, you wouldnt NEED to come to a forum looking for help. It would be done, and you would be telling US how to make it work.
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10-28-2009, 02:25 PM	#28
litebulbwithfiero Registered User Age: 19 Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 24 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: Duke performance I think you need to go back to English class and read how to learn. The 100% V.E. thing was to figure out what size throttle body I need. Not saying the engine will reach 100% V.E. The Exhaust will have some back pressure. I will lose low end torque with the lose of back pressure, but it will help with mid to high RPM power. Why does an intake manifold have to be magical to use Ford injectors? You can buy injector bungs at summit or jegs, then all you have to do is mill a couple flanges and weld some tubes between them. I will not be making a T.B., but finding a stock one. Megasquirt has been to plenty of cars to where it has been proven. Enough said The things you listed are not the things I am asking about in this thread. Those are all none duke things. I was asking about duke specific problems. Like which head is know to flow the best. I was also wondering if any one had the same thoughts as me because no is perfect and I wanted to make sure my thoughts were correct. And please do stay out of this thread as you are in no way contributing to it. I don't care if you disagree with me, post it in a constructive matter, and we can figure it out. Instead of just beng another of those ignorant people that just rag on people for thinking things out that are different then the norm.
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10-28-2009, 05:26 PM	#29
estin Registered User Age: 19 Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 112 Location: User is: Online	Re: Duke performance If I could suggest a throttle body you may look into the ford torus with the v-6, I have seen alot of people run them with great result's.Now it is on the small side in the world of throttle body BUT it was designed for 3.0 ^ so it should do fine for a duke with a roof of 5500-6000RPM,and it's smaller size will help with low end "snappyness" I think the 302 injectors are a great idea, my only concern would be they are designed for a N/A 5.0 which will net you enuff fuel for a N/A 2.5 (ISH) so if you ever decide to booste to it you may fall short of the tables you need and get a leanout condition,If you always stay N/A your would be fine.Now i have not figured all your palns on the "table" so I don't know any of this to be fact.If you have not already you may look into the MS site and they have a form you can fill out to help you get an idea of what you need.Also could i ask why you are going with the MS2 ? I would stick with the MS-extra because for the duke I don't really think you will need x-tau, stepper motor idle valves, or any of that other stuff. Will you be building your unit/testor or ordering them assembled ?
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10-28-2009, 10:05 PM	#30
litebulbwithfiero Registered User Age: 19 Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 24 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: Duke performance I am going with 302 injectors because I have them. I have no plans for boost, but if I ever did I could get higher flowing one relatively cheap. I was talking to a kid I know who is into probes. I guess the probe has a 2.5L v6, so I was going to look into its throttle body. I was going to go with MS2 so I can run my DIS ignition. Although I don't know much about the MS systems, I saw that MS2 can run m DIS and 4 injectors so I was Sold. I have learned how to figure out fuel needs, PPS, and PW. Assuming MS is like any other controller, then it shouldn't be too bad. I could just set up some tables on excel and have it work it all out for me. But I would like to take a look at the form you are referring too. In case I can't find it, do you have a link? Like I said, I am not well learned on the MS stuff specifically. If you think I am going to be getting the wrong stuff let me know and why. I do have experience filling fuel tables on a Haltech controller. I plan on buying the stuff not assembled, and have a friend of mine solder it up for me.
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10-28-2009, 10:39 PM	#31
lesterl Wire Splicin Fool :-) Age: 30 Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 4,402 Location: Harrisonville, MO User is: OffLine	Re: Duke performance Wonder if you could run 4 coil packs (1 for each cylinder, or do a wasted spark 2 coil setup like on the 2.2l's?) Since you are doing Mega Squirt anyway.
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10-28-2009, 10:42 PM	#32
estin Registered User Age: 19 Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 112 Location: User is: Online	Re: Duke performance Well,the msI-extra can run the EDIS as well.For it you would only need the ms1 extra itself,the flyback board if your injectors are low impedance,and I would recommend the relay board as it makes life way simpler.This link should give you all you need.However when i did my last one MS could only fire "batch" instead of "multi" tho that wont really matter,I thought i would let you know. I would also like to add your gunna want to get the stem v2.2,a tuning cable. Last edited by estin : 10-28-2009 at 10:45 PM.
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10-28-2009, 10:53 PM	#33
litebulbwithfiero Registered User Age: 19 Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 24 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: Duke performance lesterl Dis= waste spark with 2 coils estin Is there any reason why I couldn't run MS2? It just seems better to go with the newer one that can run what I want instead of going with the older one with updates to do it. I think I need to figure out what my stock trigger wheel is too, to see if it is MS compatible. Also I plan on running GM DIS, EDIS is usually used to describe the ford setup. Looks like I will have to spend many more hours looking at this MS stuff to help understand it better. I will also try to find info on my stock trigger wheel and see if the 302 injectors are low impedance or not. Thanks for the help figuring this out estin. Oh, and I think you forgot the link Last edited by litebulbwithfiero : 10-28-2009 at 10:57 PM.
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10-28-2009, 10:56 PM	#34
lesterl Wire Splicin Fool :-) Age: 30 Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 4,402 Location: Harrisonville, MO User is: OffLine	Re: Duke performance Trigger wheel? You talking about the Pickup Coil in the distributor? Thanks for the info on the DIS! :-)
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10-28-2009, 11:03 PM	#35
litebulbwithfiero Registered User Age: 19 Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 24 Location: User is: OffLine	Re: Duke performance No, on my Fiero it came stock with DIS. Their is a trigger wheel next to the oil pump drive gear on the crank
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