Removing front diff and weight question...

[Black P-38]

In preparation for the V8 swap I'm planning to remove the front diff, half shafts, front drive shaft etc. Has anyone deleted their front wheel drive pieces and if so is there anything I need to know? Anyone know the weight of any or all of the pieces?

I'm hoping to do as much toward the swap to prepare and lighten the truck while still being able to drive it so any suggestions and experiences will be appreciated.

The 4x4 chassis with the front diff delete will leave tons of room for the stock Rover V8 oil pan. It will also make it much easier to measure for motor mounts before I pull the 2.8 V6.

Thanks Guys,
Mike

[turbobandit]

keep the 4x4!!!!!! nothin like the v8 s10 and 4x4 to kill the subie's off the line!

[Crew Cab Sonoma]

the front diff. asy. weighs about 50lbs. or so, if its
aluminum center section, a little more if its iron.
figure on about 18lbs. each for the halfshafts.
and about 12lbs. for propshaft.

the t-case probably weighs in around 75-85lbs.
depending on which model you have.
you could gut the t-case of non essential parts
and loose 25-40lbs. from it, or replace the entire
case with a 2 pc. driveshaft setup with some
kind of seal adaptor on the back of the tranny.

it does open up alot of space under the engine...

you will need to grind down the halfshaft ends
to make "stub shafts" to put back through your bearing
hubs to keep them in one piece, unless you have newer
style "formed hubs", which the innner and outer sections
are permanantly crimped together.

[sadexcuse4s10]

Quote: Originally Posted by Crew Cab Sonoma

the front diff. asy. weighs about 50lbs. or so, if its
aluminum center section, a little more if its iron.
figure on about 18lbs. each for the halfshafts.
and about 12lbs. for propshaft.

the t-case probably weighs in around 75-85lbs.
depending on which model you have.
you could gut the t-case of non essential parts
and loose 25-40lbs. from it, or replace the entire
case with a 2 pc. driveshaft setup with some
kind of seal adaptor on the back of the tranny.

it does open up alot of space under the engine...

you will need to grind down the halfshaft ends
to make "stub shafts" to put back through your bearing
hubs to keep them in one piece, unless you have newer
style "formed hubs", which the innner and outer sections
are permanantly crimped together.

like he stated he's swapping engines already to a range rover platform so he will most likely rebuild or replace the transmission.

if rebuilding, he could easily replace the tailshaft with a 2wd model or just find a 2wd tranny from the junkyard to rebuild in the meantime while he's still driving the truck and acquiring parts for his motor swap.

[Black P-38]

I know the 4 wheel traction would be an advantage but with my power level I'm more interested in making it as light as I can. I already have my T-5 Camaro trans and will be keepin' it simple and affordable with 2wd. I also need the room for the oil pan and exhaust pieces so the 4 by is goin' bye bye...

Does anyone know the weight of the 700R4?

Hey Crew Cab Sonoma, thanks for all the info on weights and the stub shaft situation. I'll be leaving the trans and T-case 'til I do the swap, what will I have to do to remove the front prop shaft and still drive the truck? Any other info or pics on the stub shaft mod? I'm pretty sure these are gonna be the original hubs from 1985...

Yep, Rover V8 powerplant, Camaro T-5 trans, (26 spline V8). Can't wait to get it done, just lacking the MegaSquirt II ECU and harness for injectors/sensors.

Mike

[beedle4]

You just need to dismantle the outer joint on the CV shaft and leave it bolted threw the unit bearing.

[Crew Cab Sonoma]

the T-case has its own seal around the front propshaft
yoke, and will still keep its oil without the front shaft installed.

here is an older thread, where i posted 3 pics. of my truck
with the front diff. removed, and a shot of the stub shaft
installed.

post #17...

http://www.s10forum.com/forum/f107/t...rth-it-160517/

[Crew Cab Sonoma]

also keep in mind, that a 1 pc. drivshaft with a
2wd transmission will likely interfere with the
torision bar carrier beam, or the frame crossmember
just ahead of it, so a 2pc. shaft asy.
will likely still be required if the t-case is eliminated.

either that, or a heavily modified torision bar carrier,
to allow 1 pc. shaft clearance...

[Black P-38]

Man, YOU ROCK!!! I really appreciate all the help and especially the link to the old post and pics!!! I have a friend who has a car lift so I'm gonna see if he can help me get this done in the near future.

I wont be going back to 4wd but will leave the T-case 'til I'm ready for the V8 swap. Nice to know I wont have to worry about sealing the front output.

This will be good progress toward a 2wd V8 so between the weight loss and having it done and out of my way, definitely worth it for me!!!

Thanks again, I'll post pics of how it goes for others who want to do this on a First Gen...

Mike

[Crew Cab Sonoma]

thanks...

this thread got me to thinking about gutting my NP 233C
transfer case,
so i decided to get off my butt and just do it.
took out everything not absolutely necessary to function
in 2 hi...

took out the chain, front output shaft and its front bearing,
chain sproket and its engagement asm., shift fork asm.,
low range planetary set. the anulus gear for the planetary set
is pressed very tightly into the front case, so i had to use my
angle grinder to cut it into three sections to get it to pry out
of the case...
the front case has to be thoroughly pressure washed to get all
grinding dust out.

the hi/low range "clutch" hub got epoxied to to the output shaft
in just the right place after some careful measurements,
to make sure it stays meshed with the input shaft splines.

used a couple of freeze plugs glued and bolted to both sides
of a new seal to plug the hole where the output shaft used to go...
and the hole where the shift fork/encoder motor shaft goes
through the case was just the right size to get tapped for 1/2" pipe plug.

those damn snap rings are a REAL PITA without the right kind
of snap ring pliers....

in all, i got 29 lbs. out of it...

[tippmann243]

on a 4x4 you can drop a decent amount of weight by getting rid of the torsion bars and torsion bar cross member.

the syclone and typhoon guys switch to coil overs and drop about 200 pounds IIRC.

[Black P-38]

Sounds pretty ambitious to me but that's how it is when you start thinking about these things... before you know it you're up to your elbows in it...

29 lbs is pretty impressive considering how much weight you had already removed. Obviously you're used to working on transfer cases, not sure I'd be that brave, nice work!!!

I took my Blazer to the hot spray Carwash today and did a little pre surgical undercarriage cleanup. It's always nice when you can at least find the bolts.
I figure it's that much less crap falling in my eyes later.

I'm looking forward to getting the job done and putting her on the scale to see how the diet is coming along... I talked to my buddy today about getting some shop space for a "small" project, hoping for this weekend.

Mike

[Black P-38]

Quote: Originally Posted by tippmann243

on a 4x4 you can drop a decent amount of weight by getting rid of the torsion bars and torsion bar cross member.

the syclone and typhoon guys switch to coil overs and drop about 200 pounds IIRC.

Click here and page almost to the bottom...

http://www.s10forum.com/forum/f10/i-got-one-415615/

SWEET RIDE and nice conversion pieces!!!

Mike

[tippmann243]

Quote: Originally Posted by Black P-38

Click here and page almost to the bottom...

http://www.s10forum.com/forum/f10/i-got-one-415615/

SWEET RIDE and nice conversion pieces!!!

Mike

that ty was the background on my work computer for a while

[jloly]

i removed everything from the transfercase forward and now i get a ****ed up vibration.

any input?

im thinkin it may just be the u joint for the driveshaft but its strange it springs up after i remove this shit

[Black P-38]

Yep, that's a beauty!!! Someday... :-)

Vibration? That sucks... When does it do it, at a particular speed? All the time?


Mike

[Crew Cab Sonoma]

Quote: Originally Posted by Black P-38

Sounds pretty ambitious to me but that's how it is when you start thinking about these things... before you know it you're up to your elbows in it...
29 lbs is pretty impressive considering how much weight you had already removed. Obviously you're used to working on transfer cases, not sure I'd be that brave, nice work!!!
I took my Blazer to the hot spray Carwash today and did a little pre surgical undercarriage cleanup. It's always nice when you can at least find the bolts.
I figure it's that much less crap falling in my eyes later.
Mike

actually, thats the first T-case i've ever opened up....
but i did get some exploded view printouts from the dealership,
and study pics. of 233C/243C internal parts pics online to get a
good of how it works, and what goes where before i did it.
and yeah, having a clean underside on your vehicle sure is
nice. my wife looks at me like i'm nuts when she sees
cleaning pars underneath my truck...my T-case got a good
detailing while it was out too...

[Crew Cab Sonoma]

Quote: Originally Posted by tippmann243

on a 4x4 you can drop a decent amount of weight by getting rid of the torsion bars and torsion bar cross member.

the syclone and typhoon guys switch to coil overs and drop about 200 pounds IIRC.

yeah, thats on my "someday" wish list...
but most of the control arm kits are set up for better balljoint angles
for lowered trucks, and i have no intentions of lowering mine.

but i have deen a couple of guys on the SyTy forum who used
coilovers with stock control arms...

[jloly]

Quote: Originally Posted by Black P-38

Yep, that's a beauty!!! Someday... :-)

Vibration? That sucks... When does it do it, at a particular speed? All the time?


Mike

lower rpm range in all gears

[Black P-38]

Quote: Originally Posted by Crew Cab Sonoma

actually, thats the first T-case i've ever opened up....
but i did stay at a Holiday Inn before i did it... (Sorry man I couldn.t help myself...). Seriously though you're a brave man!

...and yeah, having a clean underside on your vehicle sure is
nice. my wife looks at me like i'm nuts when she sees
cleaning pars underneath my truck...my T-case got a good
detailing while it was out too...

Yeah, I get "that look" alot too... hehehe!!!

Mike

[Black P-38]

Well, it's done!!! My '85 Blazer is now 2wd. I have the aluminum case front diff and it weighs 64 lbs, the prop shaft is 13 lbs, both half shafts after the stub removal are 31 lbs together, all bolts, U-joint straps, bracket, bushings, vent tube and vacuum operated actuator are 4 lbs for a total loss of 112 lbs!!!

That brings my total loss to 175 lbs so far... for a dry weight, (no fuel or driver), of 3250 lbs, down from 3425 so an excellent start!!! I took a few pics that I'll post up tomorrow.

Mike

[Black P-38]

Pardon the filth...













Lots of room for about any shape/size/sump oil pan now!!!

Mike

[Black P-38]

I still need to remove the passenger side diff mount bracket & bushings and cut the tab off which will open up even more space. You can see the starter just above the diff mount bracket. The upper bolt is held by a non captured nut, accessible through a small hole in the frame bottom. The upper bolt on the drivers side is the same way and proved to be a real bitch to keep from turning while trying to remove the bolt.

That's why the passenger side bracket is still in place, I'd had enough by the time everything else was done. There is likely a "special tool" made for the job. The nut is almost recessed so you need a box end 18 mm with just the right amount of offset, PLUS it has to fit through the access hole, (lower right corner of the circled area).

Tried everything to get the upper D-side out, finally had to use a large pry bar to put enough pressure on one flat of the hex nut to keep it from turning, it was a sonofabitch. All I can say is thankfully I had access to air tools and didn't have to attempt it on jack stands in my gravel parking area where I do most of my wrenching, without air...

[Black P-38]

Here you can see the lower drivers side diff mount bolt and tab. This tab makes it difficult to remove the diff. Since I wont be reinstalling the diff I just cut the tab off after removing the bolt.



For the driveshaft removal I disconnected it from both ends and left it tucked back 'til I got the diff out, then slid it out.

Mike

[Black P-38]

The axle hubs were unbolted and retracted away from the diff. After the driveshaft and diff mount bolts were removed and lower drivers side tab was cut off the diff was lowered/twisted down and out.

I was able to remove the halfshafts in one piece by lowering the truck down with the weight resting on a large block under the sway bar mounting points on the lower A-arms. Turning the wheel some to the right or left will help find the "sweet spot" for the most clearance.

The weight compresses the suspension, giving just enough clearance behind the CV joint to allow the half shafts to be pulled back and wiggled out of the hubs. This was done one side at a time with a block of wood under the opposite rear tire to shift more weight on the A-arm being blocked up and compressed. Always think SAFETY FIRST when working near or under a vehicle being lifted or supported in any way. Make sure you have a fail safe way of keeping the vehicle from dropping enough to hurt or crush you. If you cannot do it safely... DON'T DO IT!!!

Mike

[Black P-38]

Quote: Originally Posted by jloly

i removed everything from the transfercase forward and now i get a ****ed up vibration.

any input?

im thinkin it may just be the u joint for the driveshaft but its strange it springs up after i remove this shit

Did you ever have a chance to figure out where the vibe is coming from?
I don't know why removing the front drive parts would have that effect...

I'm wondering if it could be an issue inside the transfer case that wasn't obvious until you removed the rotating mass of the front driveshaft...
Possibly like a worn chain and sprockets where the slack could cause a vibe that was "absorbed" by the front shaft???

The only other thing I can think of is an imbalance in the rotating pieces left in the front hubs...

Have you tried putting it in neutral and letting it idle while rolling down the road to see if it goes away?

Mike

[Crew Cab Sonoma]

nice job, P-38.

the front diff. looks like it weighs a bit more than i thought,
i weighed mine on an old bath scale, its accuracy is a little suspect.
the lighter parts i weigh on a 28lb. scale.

[Black P-38]

Thanks CCS!!! I was confident I could do it after your help and pics. It's always nice to get a reality check from someone who's been there before you take on an unknown project. The heads up on bending/cutting the mounting bracket tabs saved me alot of time and headaches. I appreciate all the help!!!

I weighed everything on a very accurate digital scale and was pleasantly surprised to see how much weight I dropped. I did see on Advance Adapters site they list the 700R4 as weighing 175 lbs so between that and the transfer case I should lose alot more weight.

I'm guessing the weight doesn't include flex plate, tq convertor or fluid... if those items weigh about the same as my flywheel and clutch that means I'll drop an easy 100 lbs on the trans alone.

So far, so good...
Mike

[Crew Cab Sonoma]

glad i could help.
i think the 175lb. figure for the 700 includes 12"
converter, and full fluid.
your 2.8 has a slightly lighter built version of the 700
with a 10-10.5" converter.
switching to a T-5 tranny would likely save only about
35-40lbs. when you include the flywheel.
if you gut the transfer case, figure on about
25-30lbs., depending on how far you go with gutting it.
if you remove the range shift fork, you have to
figure out a way to lock the range shift collar into
"2 HI" position. i used JB Weld to hold it in the
correct position on the rear output shaft after some
careful measurments to make certain it was in the
corect place to keep proper mesh with the input
hub teeth.

[dahondaboy]

excellent write up! i am doing this right now to a blazer. thanx

[Black P-38]

Well I was hoping 175 lbs was just the weight of the trans, dry w/o convertor... so much for hope! The flywheel for my Rover V8 is 22 lbs, (pretty light for billet steel but it's for a 4.0), pressure plate, disc, bellhousing and hyd TOB are 25 lbs, T-5 is 70 lbs so a total of about 117 lbs. So I guess I'll save about 50 lbs which is disappointing from a curb weight perspective.

Of course, the power to the pavement and gear leverage will make it a better choice for me so the 60 lb weight loss is just a bonus. Unfortunately it'll be tougher to reach my 3000 lb goal if I'm only saving 60 lbs on the trans swap.

I'm at 3250 now and all I have left to remove/save is the trans swap difference, the weight of the transfer case, (which stays in the truck 'til the engine and trans are swapped out for the V8 & 5 spd), and the savings on wheel/tire weight, (about 9 lbs per corner). Too bad I can't afford a coil over swap... the removal of the stock torsion bar front suspension components would make a big difference...

Actually I may save about 25 lbs on the V8 swap too, hard to believe the Rover 4.0 is lighter than the tiny 2.8 V6... that's the beauty of an aluminum block that weighs only 70 lbs and heads that weigh 18 lbs apiece!!!
I'll only be running an alternator so very little accessory weight.

I'm hoping to save a little with the aluminum radiator w/o trans cooling over my stock brass/copper optional HD rad... it's a 3 row. I weighed it when I had it out to remove the A/C condensor, 16.5 lbs plus a little for the trans cooler lines. I'll be lucky to save much especially if the new rad has more capacity.
At a pound per pint it wouldn't take much coolant to wipe out any weight savings... Oh well, I'll just have to see how it all comes together... the vehicle scale will tell the tale...

Bottom line, it will be far lighter than the 3425 lb starting weight and with double the hp and a 5 speed getting more of it to the pavement it will damn sure be more fun to drive!!!

Mike

[Black P-38]

Quote: Originally Posted by dahondaboy

excellent write up! i am doing this right now to a blazer. thanx

Cool!!! What year is your Blazer? Hope the project goes well for you.

Be prepared when you remove the axle hub nuts, they are probably torqued to around 175 ft lbs... An air impact driver was a big help for me and it took a while to rattle them loose. Check manufacturers torque specs when reassembling.

Let us know how it goes...

Mike

[Crew Cab Sonoma]

i usually dont go over 110-120ft/lbs. on the
axle nuts when reinstalling them.
never had any issues from it.

[Black P-38]

I tightened mine to 120 ft lbs, figured that was plenty. Since then I did the rear drop with 2" blocks and installed new rear shocks. Hope to adjust the torsion bars down to lower the front this weekend. Here are some before pics...











I'll post the after pics when I get the front done. Still need to install the rear fenderwell trims too.

Mike

[marktm200]

I dont want to start a new thread, but is it possilbe since most people who are removing their front diff are swapping for a v8 anyway to remove the diff while the engine is out. I'm not sure if this is possible or not.

[Crew Cab Sonoma]

yeah i think its possible.